New efforts!

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

From my understanding MWM is one of a number of differing studios actually involved with the talks for CoH.  I wouldn't be surprised though, if MWM ends up with the game, that they'll benefit from income generated from it to further develop CoT.

While one of the developers at City of Titans was involved in getting the CoH purchase talks started none of the successor projects are directly involved in the deal in any fashion. Detailed in this thread here. Unless something different was announced recently and i missed it. (That's altogether possible.)

[JanessaVR]

That can be found here, Update #169.

It's in the comments section, 2nd post/response from the bottom, by "Missing Worlds Media (Creator)".

Well, that was in June, so hopefully things aren't fully dead.  Presumably this was Nate posting that, so I'll hold on to my 1% hope of success.  Maybe we'll learn more in another year or two.  Thanks for looking that up.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Well, that was in June, so hopefully things aren't fully dead.  Presumably this was Nate posting that, so I'll hold on to my 1% hope of success.  Maybe we'll learn more in another year or two.  Thanks for looking that up.

Better then 0% I suppose :)

[JanessaVR]

Better then 0% I suppose :)

After 4 years, managing to hit 1% is taking a conscious effort.

[Thunder Glove]

The game has been closed for four years, but the negotiations have only been going on for two.

I've said this before, but it took Joel Hodgman (backed by Shout Factory) five whole years to negotiate the rights to MST3K back, and he created that.  Two years is nothing.

[Angel Phoenix77]

The game has been closed for four years, but the negotiations have only been going on for two.

I've said this before, but it took Joel Hodgman (backed by Shout Factory) five whole years to negotiate the rights to MST3K back, and he created that.  Two years is nothing.

Bingo, if it took 7 years then I might start to worry that City of. might not come back. This whole deal has taught me the meaning of waiting. Jut as you have said two years is nothing, and going by the website I posted the effort is about half way done.
I think people need to learn to relax, not worry about doom and gloom about this attempt. Just my 2 cents.

[MM3squints]

Bingo, if it took 7 years then I might start to worry that City of. might not come back. This whole deal has taught me the meaning of waiting. Jut as you have said two years is nothing, and going by the website I posted the effort is about half way done.
I think people need to learn to relax, not worry about doom and gloom about this attempt. Just my 2 cents.

For me, it is the idea of conflict of interest the longer this takes. The longer this takes, the closer MWM is to releasing CoT. If CoX is revived shortly after CoT is launched or even couple months after, I will drop CoT and play CoX in a heart beat because there is no way CoT can complete with 8 years of content. Not only that I don't have the time to play multiple MMOs.  Sure I will eventually come back to CoT, but here lies the problem, CoT will suffer from funding due to CoX siphoning not just the player base, but any miss opportunities from whatever revenue generation they could have potentially have made. This in turn will slow down development or halt development. MWM still needs to pay the pay the bills even if the developers/creators decide to work for free (servers, customer support, all the back end operation of an organization all cost money) Of course I am just one person this is just me, there may be people who are willing to support multiple MMOs and pay the micro transactions or subs for multiple MMO at the same time.

From a business stand point it just seems less feasible and appealing to get CoX  Even though Nate said getting CoX is not affiliated with MWM, however, he is creating CoT with his other hand and I assume any business entrepreneur is not willingly going to handicap themselves to hinder any potential revenue.

[Matt Bold]

I don't post on the forums much, but I literally think about CoH everyday.  I check the forums a few times a week to see if anything major happens, and I will continue to hold on to the shred of hope I have left that I will see CoH return in some fashion.  The day I hear news that CoH will return will be one of the happiest moments of my life.

Paragon Chat just makes me depressed.

If the deal was completely dead, I feel that someone from the negotiations would have had the decency to say so.

[Winter Fable]

For me, it is the idea of conflict of interest the longer this takes. The longer this takes, the closer MWM is to releasing CoT. If CoX is revived shortly after CoT is launched or even couple months after, I will drop CoT and play CoX in a heart beat because there is no way CoT can complete with 8 years of content. Not only that I don't have the time to play multiple MMOs.  Sure I will eventually come back to CoT, but here lies the problem, CoT will suffer from funding due to CoX siphoning not just the player base, but any miss opportunities from whatever revenue generation they could have potentially have made. This in turn will slow down development or halt development. MWM still needs to pay the pay the bills even if the developers/creators decide to work for free (servers, customer support, all the back end operation of an organization all cost money) Of course I am just one person this is just me, there may be people who are willing to support multiple MMOs and pay the micro transactions or subs for multiple MMO at the same time.

From a business stand point it just seems less feasible and appealing to get CoX  Even though Nate said getting CoX is not affiliated with MWM, however, he is creating CoT with his other hand and I assume any business entrepreneur is not willingly going to handicap themselves to hinder any potential revenue.

I feel the same.MWM have to know they will put  themselves out of business of if CoX comes back.I only have time and money for one and CoX is the only one I want.I don't understand how MWM can they are fans of CoX when they gave up and started making a game that will be competing with CoX.Posi said himself in the after shutdown video that it takes a lot of money,time and people to make a MMO and keep new content coming out.Even if we get a unchanging issue 23 I still had years of builds and missions.Gah I hate typing on a small phone :)

[Arcana]

For me, it is the idea of conflict of interest the longer this takes. The longer this takes, the closer MWM is to releasing CoT. If CoX is revived shortly after CoT is launched or even couple months after, I will drop CoT and play CoX in a heart beat because there is no way CoT can complete with 8 years of content. Not only that I don't have the time to play multiple MMOs.

If I was a developer for CoT, and I'm not, and if I knew CoX was coming back, and if I was responsible for content creation tools, I would probably look to license CoX content from the buyout team (and they said licensing the IP was a goal of the buyout effort) and work really really hard to create a content converter for CoT.

I'm not saying CoT is doing that, or should do that, or if it is even feasible given their current implementation.  I'm just saying I'm someone that always has a plan B.  And plan C.  And plan K, Q, and Z.  A contingency plan for what to do if CoX's ten years of content development were to suddenly come on the block is something I wouldn't sleep at night until I had formulated, if it was within my sphere of responsibility.

[MM3squints]

If I was a developer for CoT, and I'm not, and if I knew CoX was coming back, and if I was responsible for content creation tools, I would probably look to license CoX content from the buyout team (and they said licensing the IP was a goal of the buyout effort) and work really really hard to create a content converter for CoT.

I'm not saying CoT is doing that, or should do that, or if it is even feasible given their current implementation.  I'm just saying I'm someone that always has a plan B.  And plan C.  And plan K, Q, and Z.  A contingency plan for what to do if CoX's ten years of content development were to suddenly come on the block is something I wouldn't sleep at night until I had formulated, if it was within my sphere of responsibility.

They can make some grand plan making a CoX/CoT Titan Hybrid (not unheard of having  something like a new start location for the CoT content, but will split the player base alot more with more initial zones if there is a 4th start zone) however, that and everything else is just speculation with the information on hand. I'm not against for CoT just reusing the areas of CoX (heck that what the APR is but with updated graphics and I am very excited just seeing the updated graphic screen shots) but that again begs to leave the question what will happen to the APR project. Again as stated from Nate's initial post where all successor projects will have access to the IP, what stops Valiance Online and other doing the same unless there is a clause preventing the other projects using the actual assist and only reference the lore.

[LadyVamp]

They can make some grand plan making a CoX/CoT Titan Hybrid (not unheard of having  something like a new start location for the CoT content, but will split the player base alot more with more initial zones if there is a 4th start zone) however, that and everything else is just speculation with the information on hand. I'm not against for CoT just reusing the areas of CoX (heck that what the APR is but with updated graphics and I am very excited just seeing the updated graphic screen shots) but that again begs to leave the question what will happen to the APR project. Again as stated from Nate's initial post where all successor projects will have access to the IP, what stops Valiance Online and other doing the same unless there is a clause preventing the other projects using the actual assist and only reference the lore.

I doubt they'd make a hybrid game with CoX zones but by being able to license the content (if NCSoft retains ownership or another entity) they can recreate the look/feel with many of the elements without worrying about NCSoft cutting them a new rear end.  With a license for the content, CoT, for example, could create a Kings Row zone that looks like the run down section of town Paragon City and have Skulls/Hellions/clockwork running around.  Without the license, they could build a Kings Row like zone but couldn't call it that and would have to make it different enough to avoid the lawsuit.  That "we are different enough" is often subjective too.  Also, fighting skulls, hellions, clockwork wouldn't be possible without the license even if they called the zone skid row.

Owning the content would be preferable but licensing the IP would also be possible.  The only thing I don't like about licensing is terms often dictate circumstances that terminate the license which normally includes a remove/destroy the IP clause.

If I had to guess, the negotiations are to buy IP then turn around a license it to the successors.  But that's my opinion, and my knowledge is at best speculation.

[Arcana]

They can make some grand plan making a CoX/CoT Titan Hybrid (not unheard of having  something like a new start location for the CoT content, but will split the player base alot more with more initial zones if there is a 4th start zone) however, that and everything else is just speculation with the information on hand. I'm not against for CoT just reusing the areas of CoX (heck that what the APR is but with updated graphics and I am very excited just seeing the updated graphic screen shots) but that again begs to leave the question what will happen to the APR project. Again as stated from Nate's initial post where all successor projects will have access to the IP, what stops Valiance Online and other doing the same unless there is a clause preventing the other projects using the actual assist and only reference the lore.

As I mentioned, I wasn't commenting on what any particular "they" would do, I was just offering up what I would do for discussion purposes.  What I would do is not necessarily possible, practical, or reasonable for anyone else to do.

I should point out that the notion of extracting City of Heroes game data and converting it into another form that would be useful for other purposes describes about 50% of my City of Heroes life for the last five years of the game's existence.

[Vee]

I should point out that the notion of extracting City of Heroes game data and converting it into another form that would be useful for other purposes describes about 50% of my City of Heroes life for the last five years of the game's existence.

Hami raid chatlogs -> cat herding app?

[MM3squints]

As I mentioned, I wasn't commenting on what any particular "they" would do, I was just offering up what I would do for discussion purposes.  What I would do is not necessarily possible, practical, or reasonable for anyone else to do.

I should point out that the notion of extracting City of Heroes game data and converting it into another form that would be useful for other purposes describes about 50% of my City of Heroes life for the last five years of the game's existence.

Which would go my original point there is less and less reasons for CoX to be brought back unless if it is integrated with the new IPs. Going into making a MMO it takes lots of effort and like you stated there are contingency plans for contingency plans (hopefully) I'm just thinking from a Machiavellian point of view in the strategic assist of even bringing up the CoX resurrection because we have nothing better to do than to speculate with the information on hand. I am not saying this is the intention of Nate or MWM, but in my eye bringing up CoX resurrection is a win win regardless of the outcome. The announcement of trying to resurrect CoX will not only bring free earned media (which it did couple year ago) to highlight your current project, but also generate more good will with a community. This good will allows you to be flexible with millstones and keeps up the excitement up within the base for your project. If the deal were to fail, your organization (even though Nate said MWM is not tied into the buying of the CoX IP) will be recognized for trying and have a head start over the other successor project.

In the case if they do successfully obtain the IP, they can share the IPs content with restriction. The original statement was as follows

An arrangement is to be made to license the trademarks to the various Plan Z projects, CoT, Valiance and H&V, to create a family connection, and to allow each to drop the "Spiritual" portion of successor. This means they can make references to the original game if desired, and to enable the expansion of partnerships. This could be expanded for any of them, should the desire be there.

An arrangement is also to be made for the Atlas Park Revival project. As part of the informal agreement we have with them, they would be given an official stamp of approval, and the CoT game build would be licensed to them, to create a kind of "CoH 1.5" and migrate people off of the classic game engine before it finally becomes unsuitable (we expect this to happen around when Windows 9 is released, due to binary compatibility). This can be done because both APR and CoT run on Unreal Engine 4.

This can mean the successors can have full free range, but nothing really said about using the assists or content of the game. I'm giving Nate the benefit of the doubt that he would allow all the spiritual successors to use anything from CoX, but thinking in a business sense, that would be foolish. To our knowledge the other successor projects do not have someone from their organization also assisting in this effort. So it would behoove the person to give better access to the content even if that organization is not tied to the deal in order to get the edge over the other successor project. We can play it coy and say we are rooting for everyone, but the truth is, there are 3-4 projects that are bidding for the same core consumer and there are consumers like me who will only have time to commit to one of the projects. This is a business and without revenue, the business will fail and close. Because they got CoX back and allowed a limited amount of the game to be used in the other successor project, it will still be great PR while they maintain an edge.

Again this is just a very calculating way of looking at the deal. Would Nate do something like this? Probably not because in his statement, he said he made arraignments for APR to exist and that is a direct competition to CoT. However, I can't see CoT or any of the other successor project even stand a chance if CoX zombie mode or APR is in play because they will suck up a lot of the air and potential revenue at this point so far into the development. When it was announced, yes I saw it viable because it could have been we played CoX or APR and it would hold us over till CoT comes out. Now if CoX/APR releases around the same time CoT does, there is no contest.

[rkcdan]

For me, it is the idea of conflict of interest the longer this takes. The longer this takes, the closer MWM is to releasing CoT. If CoX is revived shortly after CoT is launched or even couple months after, I will drop CoT and play CoX in a heart beat because there is no way CoT can complete with 8 years of content. Not only that I don't have the time to play multiple MMOs.  Sure I will eventually come back to CoT, but here lies the problem, CoT will suffer from funding due to CoX siphoning not just the player base, but any miss opportunities from whatever revenue generation they could have potentially have made. This in turn will slow down development or halt development. MWM still needs to pay the pay the bills even if the developers/creators decide to work for free (servers, customer support, all the back end operation of an organization all cost money) Of course I am just one person this is just me, there may be people who are willing to support multiple MMOs and pay the micro transactions or subs for multiple MMO at the same time.

From a business stand point it just seems less feasible and appealing to get CoX  Even though Nate said getting CoX is not affiliated with MWM, however, he is creating CoT with his other hand and I assume any business entrepreneur is not willingly going to handicap themselves to hinder any potential revenue.

I can see your point but there is away around it. If COX and COT partnered and release them as a box set to it subscription members. Now this is just my opinion. Say charge $20.00 a month and you get both games. $5.00 to maintain COX in maintenance mode (with possible new content down the line) and $15.00 to run COT as a new game with new content. I would gladly pay 20.00 a month to get both. That would end them having to compete against each other. And we get both the old school and the new school of crime fighting. Just my opinion, my opinion and $10.00 might get you a coffee at star bucks.

[Sinistar]

I can see your point but there is away around it. If COX and COT partnered and release them as a box set to it subscription members. Now this is just my opinion. Say charge $20.00 a month and you get both games. $5.00 to maintain COX in maintenance mode (with possible new content down the line) and $15.00 to run COT as a new game with new content. I would gladly pay 20.00 a month to get both. That would end them having to compete against each other. And we get both the old school and the new school of crime fighting. Just my opinion, my opinion and $10.00 might get you a coffee at star bucks.

And hope that our CoX characters that we have to rebuild can port over into CoT :)

[MM3squints]

I can see your point but there is away around it. If COX and COT partnered and release them as a box set to it subscription members. Now this is just my opinion. Say charge $20.00 a month and you get both games. $5.00 to maintain COX in maintenance mode (with possible new content down the line) and $15.00 to run COT as a new game with new content. I would gladly pay 20.00 a month to get both. That would end them having to compete against each other. And we get both the old school and the new school of crime fighting. Just my opinion, my opinion and $10.00 might get you a coffee at star bucks.

This means the people who are backing CoX revival will need to approve. Again just looking at from a business point of view, that dose not seems attractive to any angel investors on their ROI. Unless the angel investors are just nice people and don't care for the timeline in when they will see a profit anytime soon. This then goes back to the question if Nate is the only rep (as far as we know) that is making this deal with the angel investors, how else will acquiring CoX look attractable for the investors capital over other investment opportunity? Will the other projects like Valiance Online be permitted to use CoX assist only after paying a fee to this 3rd party group. If so that is another overhead these projects need to worry about besides their other bills and once those bill are not paid, what will happen to those projects? Is it better to just make their game without referencing CoX and without that source of revenue, where else will money come from besides micro transactions and probably a sub? If micro transaction and subs are the only form of revenue, why would the angel investors want any other projects to win or even have a chance of winning because even if someone has a sub for each of the game, the time the player is not spending in CoX is a loss in profit due to a loss in opportunity cost of that person not making a micro transaction in CoX.

There are many, many more complex business/financial question (and probably the reason why the negotiation is taking so long, not only do Nate need to deal with NC Soft, but with the angel investor group to assure them this is still a viable investment) that are not answered and we won't probably know the details. Reality of the matter just seems grim the more time passes because the answers I gave in my previous post.

[Taceus Jiwede]

This means the people who are backing CoX revival will need to approve. Again just looking at from a business point of view, that dose not seems attractive to any angel investors on their ROI. Unless the angel investors are just nice people and don't care for the timeline in when they will see a profit anytime soon. This then goes back to the question if Nate is the only rep (as far as we know) that is making this deal with the angel investors, how else will acquiring CoX look attractable for the investors capital over other investment opportunity? Will the other projects like Valiance Online be permitted to use CoX assist only after paying a fee to this 3rd party group. If so that is another overhead these projects need to worry about besides their other bills and once those bill are not paid, what will happen to those projects? Is it better to just make their game without referencing CoX and without that source of revenue, where else will money come from besides micro transactions and probably a sub? If micro transaction and subs are the only form of revenue, why would the angel investors want any other projects to win or even have a chance of winning because even if someone has a sub for each of the game, the time the player is not spending in CoX is a loss in profit due to a loss in opportunity cost of that person not making a micro transaction in CoX.

There are many, many more complex business/financial question (and probably the reason why the negotiation is taking so long, not only do Nate need to deal with NC Soft, but with the angel investor group to assure them this is still a viable investment) that are not answered and we won't probably know the details. Reality of the matter just seems grim the more time passes because the answers I gave in my previous post.

The things you are saying may be why the talks are moving so slow honestly, they aren't bad points and I don't think the ideas you are bringing up could go under the radar of the people involved.  While all of that is just speculation on my part I was always under the impression (again speculation) that CoX on its return wasn't intended to really be profitable so much as breaking even or just sustaining.  I don't picture a world where CoH returns and goes on to be hugely profitable even in a world with no CoT.  MMO's are hard to make a profit on in the first place, especially a resurrected one.

What you are talking about though certainly would be a tricky situation and I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the reasons the talks are still on-going(if they still are).  There seems to be a lot of variables in this kind of deal.  In terms of this kind of deal from NCSoft, it is all rather unprecedented in the first place.  And then the deal they are working on doesn't seem to be the most straight forward one either.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the talks went  on "officially" for another 2 years or so, you wouldn't want to jump the gun on any details in this kind of deal.

Maybe the deal is over already in everything but being officially called off, or maybe its just moving really really slow because its a complicated deal.  But your doubts that you are expressing honestly make me think the talks might still be going on, and its just a really complicated thing to pull off.

[MM3squints]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, I was just putting some reason on the thought when people say it took another IP X amount of years to come back. CoX unfortunately dose not have that luxury because of all of the other successor project and the timeline when they are supposed to come online and when CoX would come online. I still have hope that CoX will be revived because nothing official was called on the deal. But logically, the longer the deal goes on either CoX will not happen or CoX/APR will happen and potentially take out all other successor projects along the way. The worse kind of Catch-22 for Nate and the general community. Again, all I am saying is speculation with the information on hand.