New efforts!

[LaughingAlex]

I suspect the issue with tesla is that his inventions were not made with the mindset of profits.  They were made with the mindset of just making things better.  Arguably, a world powered by tesla would have been very, very different.  Even in other technologies such as the internet for instance, I'm not so sure it'd be viable.  Same for the modern smart phone, it's predecessors may not have worked or had to have been made very differently.

It'd be interesting.  But I just know for certain how even a micro wave can disrupt a wifi signal in the right circumstances(such as placement, building nature ect).  Or even the older days when a wireless phone was all it took to disrupt a wireless signal.

[Shibboleth]

I have a three point scale for intelligence. Most of us, including people called smart by others, are in the middle. A lot of what people call smart is knowledge of subjects which are associated with intelligence or training in how to approach various problems. People lacking the training or the knowledge, whether through lack of interest or other impediment, are unfairly considered lacking in general.

I spent some time at a small, technical school along the banks of the Charles River just outside Boston, and during my stay met a number of people who I would put in that next category. The guy who was an upper class man when I arrived and who I saw after I left had finally graduated with seven degrees (he had so many classes he could not take his finals in the usual testing period--two periods per day for five days) would meet most people's definition of highly intelligent. Maybe he was. Despite being in the same dorm I did not know him well (go figure, he was rarely there).  The point is people tend to look at the number of degrees and say they are all "smart" things and he has quantity so obviously he must be very smart. But you only take Calculus once for them, Thermodynamics once, Physics once. There is substantial overlap when four or five of the degrees are in engineering. Granted, there is also a fair amount which doesn't. Maybe he had a really good memory and the usual bag of tricks, developed, most of us do. I can't say (but despite the bias I am discussing I would tend to suspect he really was that next step up).

But I certainly met people and dealt with them sufficiently that I would have to say they see beyond what most of us do. People whose approaches routinely leave you feeling as amazed as a child does when an adult solves a problem beyond them, not because they have more knowledge but because they consistently have the unexpected, correct approach. And as a nifty thing, most tend to be decent people who enjoy explaining to the rest of us.

I have not dealt with many, if any at all, who I would put a step behind. I have however dealt with people in the middle who have been told and feel they don't believe they belong in the middle group. If, for example, someone says to me, "You're smarter than I am"  because I solve some math problem that has been troubling them, they probably have not factored in that on top of having been interested in math from my youth, I was until I got tired of going to school and decided to graduate as quickly as possible, a math major for a number of semesters (when I hadn't decided I preferred computer science) and so had years of gaining knowledge and dealing with math problems. I am not more intelligent but rather trained in the area. But we more often say, "You're intelligent," than, "You're trained."

[Arcana]

That said, apart from some silly rule (the irony!!), how does he not receive something more in recognition of what he's done for science - breaking a rule seems fitting!!

I mean, GR is pretty huge.

(Which I'm pretty sure he didn't win for?)

The reason why the prizes are not awarded posthumously is because it isn't just a recognition award, there is a fairly sizeable cash prize associated with it and the intent is for the cash to go to someone who can use it to continue their work.  This is, however, not explicitly in keeping with Alfred Nobel's will.

Einstein himself was so meh over the Nobel prize because of the politics surrounding it at the time he didn't even attend his own award ceremony.  In his own lifetime, Einstein received pretty much *everything* possible in terms of recognition of his achievements in Science.  He was a public celebrity the likes of which hadn't been seen since Isaac Newton and had the respect of his peers, which I think was far more important to him than the Nobel prize itself.

[blacksly]

There are contexts where smug condescension is inappropriate? Whatever is the world coming to?

Any such contexts are certainly not anywhere within hearing range of the internet.

[Arcana]

In the absence of actual information from people who are in a position to know, there is no reason to believe that anything has happened, is happening or is going to happen with City of Heroes.

I can think of at least one reason.  We were told by the only people you consider authoritative that it was being worked upon, and also that communication regarding that process would not be further forthcoming.  In the absence of additional information, that is a priori reason to assume they are still working on it, irrespective of demands by others to compel more information.

Ergo, your statement that there is no reason to think anything will ever happen is false.

[Arcana]

I suspect the issue with tesla is that his inventions were not made with the mindset of profits.  They were made with the mindset of just making things better.  Arguably, a world powered by tesla would have been very, very different.  Even in other technologies such as the internet for instance, I'm not so sure it'd be viable.  Same for the modern smart phone, it's predecessors may not have worked or had to have been made very differently.

It'd be interesting.  But I just know for certain how even a micro wave can disrupt a wifi signal in the right circumstances(such as placement, building nature ect).  Or even the older days when a wireless phone was all it took to disrupt a wireless signal.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.  We do live in a world powered by Tesla.  Many of his useful inventions were either stolen, cheated from him, or eventually appropriated.  But he wasn't a total buffoon, he held patents on his inventions that he licensed and used the income to finance his own work.  So its not like his inventions vanished from the Earth.  We all still get AC power into our houses, modified versions of his AC motor and generator designs are still in use.

The problem with Tesla was that in many ways he was the predecessor of the modern home-brew experimenter, but on a grand 19th century scale.  He wasn't really a deliberate, systematic scientist so it was difficult for others to build upon his work.  He was more of a frenetic experimenter, combining intuitive leaps with focused experimentation.  The genius of Tesla was that worked for him: most people who try to work like Tesla just get wrong, confused, or dead.  And in fact it is worth noting that Tesla believed a lot of wrong things about physics, it is just that those wrong ideas were sufficiently irrelevant to his experimentations and inventions that it didn't hamper his ability to produce interesting results with his experimentation.

I consider him the ultimate 19th century hardware hacker.

[LaughingAlex]

Wireless electricity would mean shooting power through air waves.  Like raw lightning powering a home from huge over-sized coils was the vision the guy had for powering homes.  If such a world existed, you wouldn't be able to use any kind of technology enabling wifi or wireless communication of any kind, as the same air waves and same spaces in the air/vacuum would be used for electrical power.

You cannot send communication signals through a space in which there's dozens of forms of interference.  Physics doesn't work that way know?

That's what I'm getting at.

Another point to hit on about geniuses and physics.  Even Albert Einstein made mistakes, such as the ever expanding universe and it's inevitable end.  In fact he even tried to change his own math to accommodate his believe the universe cannot end.

Edit: Now, would wireless be 100% impossible?  I could see lasers being used for wifi, assuming nothing gets in between the nodes, totally.  But see the reason fiber optics are desirable is that it's far harder to actually "spy" on a laser transmitting data in a cable than it'd be to spy on a laser flying through the air, not to mention how water and precipitation could mess with an exposed laser flying through the air.

[Vee]

We can give Einstein all the posthumous honors we want but it'll all pale in comparison to having his life chronicled in a Yahoo Serious movie.

[ivanhedgehog]

Wireless electricity would mean shooting power through air waves.  Like raw lightning powering a home from huge over-sized coils was the vision the guy had for powering homes.  If such a world existed, you wouldn't be able to use any kind of technology enabling wifi or wireless communication of any kind, as the same air waves and same spaces in the air/vacuum would be used for electrical power.

You cannot send communication signals through a space in which there's dozens of forms of interference.  Physics doesn't work that way know?

That's what I'm getting at.

Another point to hit on about geniuses and physics.  Even Albert Einstein made mistakes, such as the ever expanding universe and it's inevitable end.  In fact he even tried to change his own math to accommodate his believe the universe cannot end.

Edit: Now, would wireless be 100% impossible?  I could see lasers being used for wifi, assuming nothing gets in between the nodes, totally.  But see the reason fiber optics are desirable is that it's far harder to actually "spy" on a laser transmitting data in a cable than it'd be to spy on a laser flying through the air, not to mention how water and precipitation could mess with an exposed laser flying through the air.

too bad it already works

http://powerbyproxi.com/wireless-charging/

there are still problems but they are being worked on. they are very close to an commercially viable system
http://www.wired.com/2015/11/wireless-charging-airfuel-resence-qi-wpc/

laser wifi would not be easy to intercept, unless you had 2 fixed points to tamper with.
and it already exists
http://www.instructables.com/id/Laser-Transceiver/

[Arcana]

Wireless electricity would mean shooting power through air waves.  Like raw lightning powering a home from huge over-sized coils was the vision the guy had for powering homes.  If such a world existed, you wouldn't be able to use any kind of technology enabling wifi or wireless communication of any kind, as the same air waves and same spaces in the air/vacuum would be used for electrical power.

You cannot send communication signals through a space in which there's dozens of forms of interference.  Physics doesn't work that way know?

That's what I'm getting at.

Well, the problem with wireless electricity on the scale you're talking about is that there's no real way to do that efficiently, so even if Tesla was king of the planet that wouldn't have happened.  But let's say it did anyway.  There's no law of physics that says you can't send signals through space if there's electricity flying around.  You mentioned microwaves.  The reason why microwave ovens sometimes interfere with wifi signals and cordless telephones is because all those things are often crammed into a small and relatively unregulated frequency band.  Wifi uses 2.4Ghz.  So do most cordless telephones.  Microwave ovens use microwaves between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.  When microwave ovens generate radio frequency noise, it often spills into the 2.4Ghz band used by wifi and cordless phones.  And because wifi transmitters and cordless phones are regulated to use relatively low power, their signals can often be swamped by a old microwave.

Even if our lord and master Tesla decreed that radio beamed electricity would be the standard for the world, he wouldn't use transmitters anywhere near 2.4Ghz.  That's because the reason why microwaves operate at that frequency is it is the resonant frequency of water molecules - that's why microwaves heat water - the microwave radiation is specifically tuned to excite water molecules and not other things.  That's also why microwaves don't work on things without water content.  And that's also why electricity beaming towers would use some other frequency.  Rain would block them, and meanwhile the power output would be enough to cook people in their homes (wifi hotspots can theoretically speaking also heat people, but the power output combined with their lower frequency means you probably get a lot more heat from sunlight bouncing off the moon).

Incidentally, that's also why if you have problems with cordless phones and you think your microwave is suspect, you should get a modern cordless phone that operates at 5Ghz.  That would avoid the radio noise generated by a microwave oven.  That's what I did when I started to have problems with my phones: it wasn't my microwave oven, but it was something in my neighborhood messing them up.  The 5Ghz phones don't have that problem (at least where I live).

There's two ways to hypothetically beam power all over the place Tesla-style and still have no problems with other communications technologies.  The first obvious one is to regulate the radio frequencies the power broadcast towers are allowed to transmit in, and regulate the maximum amount of harmonic noise that can leak out of them in side lobes.  You could still use other frequencies not stomped on by the power towers.  The other thing you can do allows me the opportunity to mention someone I never get tired of mentioning.  Modern cell phones have to deal with the fact that there's all kinds of interference at all frequencies they are allowed to use, because there is now so much digital communications traffic.  So you can't even just find an empty frequency and use it.  The solution modern cell phones use is called spread spectrum technology.  The idea is easiest to understand by first explaining a different use for it.  Suppose you want to transmit a radio signal, but you also want to make sure no one can intercept it.  If you broadcast on a known frequency, anyone else can find it and then listen to it.  So instead, you change frequencies constantly, but in a way that your intended receiver knows and can follow.  This is called frequency hopping and it is a technique used by secure radio systems to make it difficult for an enemy to scan for and receive your transmissions.  By rapidly jumping frequencies in a pseudo-random way that the receiver is synchronized to follow, your message gets broken up into tiny bits sent in different channels which can't be reassembled unless you either somehow listen to all channels simultaneously (a different topic) or break the hopping algorithm.  That's the original use case for spread spectrum technology.

It turns out this rapid frequency hopping is also useful when you want to send a signal in an otherwise noisy environment.  Suppose you need to send a signal within a certain frequency band, but every frequency is already loaded with a bunch of other transmissions.  Normally, to make yourself heard you have to send your signal with a higher power level than the effective background noise of all other transmissions so it can be discriminated.  However, spread spectrum provides another way to do that, using a neat trick.  By spreading your signal out over many different frequencies, a digital receiver can in effect factor out the other transmissions by focusing only on particular frequencies at only specific instants of time.  The overall power of the noise drops, but the signal's strength rises in comparison.  The frequency hopping acts like a noise filter, and you can actually send relatively low power signals in a frequency band with relatively high noise and still be able to recover the signal.

Which brings me to Hedy Kiesler Markey.  In 1941 Hedy Kiesler Markey invented and received a patent for a method of securing radio transmissions against an adversary's attempt to jam them using a synchronized frequency hopping method that today we would describe as spread spectrum frequency hopping.  She tried to pitch it to the military to help the war effort but was turned down.  It wasn't until the 1960s that the patent was rediscovered and became the basis for modern spread spectrum radio technology, and that technology is implemented in a lot of the digital communications technology we use today.

Oh, and because she used her legal name in her patent filing, it wasn't until relatively recently that we realized that Hedy Kiesler Markey, mathematician and inventor, was in fact the actress Hedy Lamarr, aka the original Hollywood "it girl".

[Shibboleth]

Quibble: There are older patents  (one by Tesla) which describe frequency hopping. Lamarr and her partner's patent is for use of it to control torpedoes.

[LaughingAlex]

Well, the problem with wireless electricity on the scale you're talking about is that there's no real way to do that efficiently, so even if Tesla was king of the planet that wouldn't have happened.  But let's say it did anyway.  There's no law of physics that says you can't send signals through space if there's electricity flying around.  You mentioned microwaves.  The reason why microwave ovens sometimes interfere with wifi signals and cordless telephones is because all those things are often crammed into a small and relatively unregulated frequency band.  Wifi uses 2.4Ghz.  So do most cordless telephones.  Microwave ovens use microwaves between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.  When microwave ovens generate radio frequency noise, it often spills into the 2.4Ghz band used by wifi and cordless phones.  And because wifi transmitters and cordless phones are regulated to use relatively low power, their signals can often be swamped by a old microwave.

Even if our lord and master Tesla decreed that radio beamed electricity would be the standard for the world, he wouldn't use transmitters anywhere near 2.4Ghz.  That's because the reason why microwaves operate at that frequency is it is the resonant frequency of water molecules - that's why microwaves heat water - the microwave radiation is specifically tuned to excite water molecules and not other things.  That's also why microwaves don't work on things without water content.  And that's also why electricity beaming towers would use some other frequency.  Rain would block them, and meanwhile the power output would be enough to cook people in their homes (wifi hotspots can theoretically speaking also heat people, but the power output combined with their lower frequency means you probably get a lot more heat from sunlight bouncing off the moon).

Incidentally, that's also why if you have problems with cordless phones and you think your microwave is suspect, you should get a modern cordless phone that operates at 5Ghz.  That would avoid the radio noise generated by a microwave oven.  That's what I did when I started to have problems with my phones: it wasn't my microwave oven, but it was something in my neighborhood messing them up.  The 5Ghz phones don't have that problem (at least where I live).

There's two ways to hypothetically beam power all over the place Tesla-style and still have no problems with other communications technologies.  The first obvious one is to regulate the radio frequencies the power broadcast towers are allowed to transmit in, and regulate the maximum amount of harmonic noise that can leak out of them in side lobes.  You could still use other frequencies not stomped on by the power towers.  The other thing you can do allows me the opportunity to mention someone I never get tired of mentioning.  Modern cell phones have to deal with the fact that there's all kinds of interference at all frequencies they are allowed to use, because there is now so much digital communications traffic.  So you can't even just find an empty frequency and use it.  The solution modern cell phones use is called spread spectrum technology.  The idea is easiest to understand by first explaining a different use for it.  Suppose you want to transmit a radio signal, but you also want to make sure no one can intercept it.  If you broadcast on a known frequency, anyone else can find it and then listen to it.  So instead, you change frequencies constantly, but in a way that your intended receiver knows and can follow.  This is called frequency hopping and it is a technique used by secure radio systems to make it difficult for an enemy to scan for and receive your transmissions.  By rapidly jumping frequencies in a pseudo-random way that the receiver is synchronized to follow, your message gets broken up into tiny bits sent in different channels which can't be reassembled unless you either somehow listen to all channels simultaneously (a different topic) or break the hopping algorithm.  That's the original use case for spread spectrum technology.

It turns out this rapid frequency hopping is also useful when you want to send a signal in an otherwise noisy environment.  Suppose you need to send a signal within a certain frequency band, but every frequency is already loaded with a bunch of other transmissions.  Normally, to make yourself heard you have to send your signal with a higher power level than the effective background noise of all other transmissions so it can be discriminated.  However, spread spectrum provides another way to do that, using a neat trick.  By spreading your signal out over many different frequencies, a digital receiver can in effect factor out the other transmissions by focusing only on particular frequencies at only specific instants of time.  The overall power of the noise drops, but the signal's strength rises in comparison.  The frequency hopping acts like a noise filter, and you can actually send relatively low power signals in a frequency band with relatively high noise and still be able to recover the signal.

Which brings me to Hedy Kiesler Markey.  In 1941 Hedy Kiesler Markey invented and received a patent for a method of securing radio transmissions against an adversary's attempt to jam them using a synchronized frequency hopping method that today we would describe as spread spectrum frequency hopping.  She tried to pitch it to the military to help the war effort but was turned down.  It wasn't until the 1960s that the patent was rediscovered and became the basis for modern spread spectrum radio technology, and that technology is implemented in a lot of the digital communications technology we use today.

Oh, and because she used her legal name in her patent filing, it wasn't until relatively recently that we realized that Hedy Kiesler Markey, mathematician and inventor, was in fact the actress Hedy Lamarr, aka the original Hollywood "it girl".

Frequencies aside though you also have to consider though the likelyhood of electricity accidentally hitting people with wireless devices.  Something I was thinking of just now.  "Don't use wireless, the power conduits will fry you for using it".  When you have a huge device transmiting power to everything, anything that was storing power would have to be very heavily insulated, but even then you'd still have to have the antennae which could possibly attract an electrical blast from such a tower.

Then of course, the other issue is that such towers would still disrupt the signals as a plasma globe does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_globe

A lot of it boils down to practicality though.  When it comes to engineering generally something that seems awesome always gets kicked to the side if it's disadvantages are to severe.  For tesla's vision to work you'd have to have power conduits everywhere.  Those conduits would be a hazard for wireless devices in general, leading to major problems.

Even looking at MODERN wireless, likewise....well RFI interference from far greater amounts of power wouldn't have difficulty spreading over multiple frequencies.

But once again, the major issue is that your sending huge amounts of electricity through the air.  There is a lack of solid control in such a scenario beyond trying to control the transmissions.

Now lets say frequency hopping CAN get past, then it boils down to programming and packet signal management.  But once again, speed issues could easily occur.  But odds are, such devices wouldn't be usable.  And not to mention the odds of say a spark shooting into your battery or frying a CPU on accident.

Now, smaller scale use of the wireless power transmission tech?  Already in development.  This one is a little older but http://www.techhive.com/article/2892012/cutting-the-final-cord-how-wireless-power-and-wireless-charging-works.html

So one could say that experiments are being done.  But huge scale power transmission, I dunno I'm being the realist on that. 

[LaughingAlex]

too bad it already works

http://powerbyproxi.com/wireless-charging/

there are still problems but they are being worked on. they are very close to an commercially viable system
http://www.wired.com/2015/11/wireless-charging-airfuel-resence-qi-wpc/

laser wifi would not be easy to intercept, unless you had 2 fixed points to tamper with.
and it already exists
http://www.instructables.com/id/Laser-Transceiver/

And now I see your post :/.  Damn Arcana text walls.  Readin the second one now but the jerks have an anti-ad blocker on it.

Laser Wifi your still putting the laser in the air and hackers would not have difficulty finding those points.  It's part of what they do.

I also stand by what I say about scale.  Small scale stuff is one thing.  But once you go into huge scale projects your entering entirely different territory.  Why do you think we invented steel?  It'd be an interesting dare for someone to try and make a 100% pure concrete/wood skyscraper as high as the empire state building.

[ivanhedgehog]

And now I see your post :/.  Damn Arcana text walls.  Readin the second one now but the jerks have an anti-ad blocker on it.

Laser Wifi your still putting the laser in the air and hackers would not have difficulty finding those points.  It's part of what they do.

laser is a directional point to point link. you have to physically get in that path.. you have to find it first. hackers dont have some miracle scanning system. the systems I have seen were between the tops of high rise buildings. a helicopter hovering there just might be noticed. the military has been using tech like this for a long time(look at encrypted side band). I kind of trust darpa over your evaluation.

[Golden Aurora]

I'm curious Arcana, what do you think would be the negative results if there were large scale high powered wireless transmitters with the energy capable of powering homes?
Just in a brief glance I ran across this: http://www.chronicexposure.org/transmitters.html

The sources seem decent enough.
Part of me wonders how much the cancer rates would go down if we tried to minimize our exposure to contaminants we see daily, such as exhaust from vehicles, processed foods, etc.

[LaughingAlex]

laser is a directional point to point link. you have to physically get in that path.. you have to find it first. hackers dont have some miracle scanning system. the systems I have seen were between the tops of high rise buildings. a helicopter hovering there just might be noticed. the military has been using tech like this for a long time(look at encrypted side band). I kind of trust darpa over your evaluation.

Hackers spend hundreds of hours researching the exact nature of whatever network they are looking to attack ivanhedgehog.  Thats the problem your ignoring whenever you go with "Oh they'll never find it" and why they always say that security through obscurity is not security.  Because it's not a matter of if but when.  The other thing is that the use of tech your describing is exceedingly rare and in very select scenarios.  I'm talking about if it was insanely common.  Not everyone owns a 20 story high rise.  Even if they were in an apartment complex, odds are they wouldn't be in something huge unless they were rich executives sucking money from everyone.

It'd be far easier to get to a building thats only the size of a small ranch, or even a 2-3 story building.

[LaughingAlex]

I'm curious Arcana, what do you think would be the negative results if there were large scale high powered wireless transmitters with the energy capable of powering homes?
Just in a brief glance I ran across this: http://www.chronicexposure.org/transmitters.html

The sources seem decent enough.
Part of me wonders how much the cancer rates would go down if we tried to minimize our exposure to contaminants we see daily, such as exhaust from vehicles, processed foods, etc.

I think Golden Aurora is on the same page as me, as thats the kind of scale I'm talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil

Towards the end it talks about the potential risk to a person with such devices.  Nothing prevents current from flying through someone at lethal levels.

[LateNights]

Tesla is in my book one of the smartest of all time. A LOT of his designs and work on motors and generators still have never been improved on. In fact he could do some things with electricity we have never been able to duplicate to this day.

Now I'll be up all night reading about his work too :o

"The award goes to..." (Not Einstein)

I can understand why in reality he hasn't won more - it just it seems like he "should" have.

I'm even somewhat aware of his having fame / respect etc in his lifetime - still I see the effects of his works today and it just seems almost comical he hasn't - that said, probably among the scientific community he receives recognition almost daily...

We can give Einstein all the posthumous honors we want but it'll all pale in comparison to having his life chronicled in a Yahoo Serious movie.

You'll laugh, but that movie brings a tear to my eye nowadays - I loved it as a kid, and as an adult it gets me right in the feels - Yahoo is just a genuinely nice guy, silly as he might be (I've the feeling that isn't true of him in real life - the silly part that is).

That said, Teen Titans Go gets me too - it starts with Starfire and gets worse from there - I'm getting soft in my old age lmao!!

[Vee]

It's tough to honor people posthumously anyways - if the honoree is dead there's no way for muckety mucks to judge themselves on the official muckety muck scale of importance, i.e. proximity to the honoree's table. Without that they might as well stay home.

[ivanhedgehog]

Hackers spend hundreds of hours researching the exact nature of whatever network they are looking to attack ivanhedgehog.  Thats the problem your ignoring whenever you go with "Oh they'll never find it" and why they always say that security through obscurity is not security.  Because it's not a matter of if but when.  The other thing is that the use of tech your describing is exceedingly rare and in very select scenarios.  I'm talking about if it was insanely common.  Not everyone owns a 20 story high rise.  Even if they were in an apartment complex, odds are they wouldn't be in something huge unless they were rich executives sucking money from everyone.

It'd be far easier to get to a building thats only the size of a small ranch, or even a 2-3 story building.

the laser system I saw used in seattle was a link between buildings at least 15 stories high. it would be kind of obvious for hackers to fly a helicopter around in that area, I am pretty sure someone would notice