New efforts!

[Achilles6]

I should probably say the animation changes...most specificly energy transfer. the set didnt play the same after they changed it. I wont debate whether it was needed or not, it just didnt feel right to me afterwards and I had other toons that remained fun for me. I felt the changes took the fun out of the set for me

same here. stopped playing all my *EM* toons after the nerfs. blech!!

[MM3squints]

As a matter of act, I specifically posted in the PvP forums a list of the suggestions made by the PvP forum that the devs were either incorporating or looking to incorporate into PvP at that time, and I was told to "go pound sand."  I was repeatedly told that a) my opinion didn't matter and b) the devs opinion didn't matter and c) if the devs didn't do what was "obviously the right thing" based on PvP forum posts, there was no point in doing anything except setting the place on fire and leaving.  I'm not paraphrasing that.  The version of history you're expressing is not the same one I witnessed at the time.

Incidentally, travel suppression was explicitly a suggestion made by PvPers on the PvP forum (just as Enhancement Diversification was actually a suggestion first made by players).  Just not, apparently, made by the right PvPers.

Obviously how we see the situation differs. If PvPers really wanted the new travel suppression implemented, then why would they leave after implemented? That doesn't make sense. The major reason why people were disgruntled with i13 pvp was travel suppression; heal decay and the new mez system.  People said if you went along with the travel suppression; it would be like PvPing w/o travel powers (and at the end that was it was.) Again the rage wasn't all because of the changes, it was being called "acceptable loss" and why would people who solely play CoX just for PvP pay after that?

By saying "made by the right PvPers," I am assuming you are saying the people who played the game just for that aspect of the game. The people who ran multiple scenarios in PvP, the people who PvPed hours on end tested out every possibly viable builds, the people who basically were testers for any bugs in regards to power (basically the system experts?) It is good to have an opinion and a voice, but you better back it up with information if you're going to make huge change. It's like a team of engineers who are deciding to build the new Aircraft Carriers are told they only need 1 arresting gear (the thing that catches the F-18 when they land) because it will save money. The conclusion was there was no need to have 3-4 based on people who never flown the F-18 let alone land with the F-18. All the pilots who are experts in landing on a carrier said will say you need 3-4 arresting gears because it is a safety issue and it is harder to land during night ops. The governments decides it will be better to save money and go with the people who never flown the jet to the level of the pilots. The end result is exactly what the pilots said and like the end result of i13 PvP all is lost is a wedge between the management and the experts, lots of money wasted and a big paper weight that is rarely used.

I can see people in the PvP community saying your 'opinion doesn't matter" because more than likely you didn't have any influence in the PvP circle to be taken seriously. Was it right for people to just dismiss your ideas, nope because all voices are should be heard, but on the flip side if you didn't have any time in with the PvP, why would they listen. It's like a company going through a restructuring process and someone with a DBA (Doctors Business Admin) coming in telling why a certain way it better than the way that is not ingrained in the culture of the organization. You think the workers will say, "Hey this guy has a Doctors, we will go with that," of course not.

[LaughingAlex]

As a matter of act, I specifically posted in the PvP forums a list of the suggestions made by the PvP forum that the devs were either incorporating or looking to incorporate into PvP at that time, and I was told to "go pound sand."  I was repeatedly told that a) my opinion didn't matter and b) the devs opinion didn't matter and c) if the devs didn't do what was "obviously the right thing" based on PvP forum posts, there was no point in doing anything except setting the place on fire and leaving.  I'm not paraphrasing that.  The version of history you're expressing is not the same one I witnessed at the time.

Incidentally, travel suppression was explicitly a suggestion made by PvPers on the PvP forum (just as Enhancement Diversification was actually a suggestion first made by players).  Just not, apparently, made by the right PvPers.

I'd be careful about game balance and players though among pvpers.  You have this kind of player, afterall, a type i've grown to hate many fold more over the past two months http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub .

I mention that, because thats the kind of player that was brutally ruining champions online for the past year and a half, giving suggestions specifically to ensure they were the ones at the top without learning jack.  These players kept asking for so many nerfs and it was nothing but nerfs for the past year and a half for champions online, and general problems that lead to it having only 3/5ths of the players left than it did 3 or four months ago.  The holidays are ending and I actually see even LESS players on, so it's very telling.

Scrubs are extremely bad for game balance in the sense that, listening to them and following there suggestions only railroad players into even LESS tactics, rather than a more balanced game.  Scrubs may speak in favor of "balance", but the balance they want is for them to win all the time, and everything "cheap" to them is never touched, nerfed to the point of uselessness.  It's all they care about.

[Surelle]

A Non-Disclosure Agreement means they can't talk about the deal. I don't know if you are aware but back when the Mask Comes Off thread first was out - it was because someone forced the hand of the team and NCSoft very nearly walked away.

I don't know anything and I am not asking. This is the best chance we have of getting the game back. I do not want to be the one who caused the deal to go south and have to think of that every day. I am reasonably good at reading between the lines - but there is a reason Wacabbit and Downix are not posting now. It is not because they gave up - it is because they are being very careful.

Wow!  Just think, that one idiot on the CoX Facebook page almost blew it for everyone!  Yikes! 

Well, I'm really glad talks are still ongoing in any form, and that Team Hail Mary hasn't given up.  I hope they get all the financial backing and personnel support they need to bring CoX i23 and Atlas Park Revival to light!

[Sinistar]

Wow!  Just think, that one idiot on the CoX Facebook page almost blew it for everyone!  Yikes! 

Well, I'm really glad talks are still ongoing in any form, and that Team Hail Mary hasn't given up.  I hope they get all the financial backing and personnel support they need to bring CoX i23 and Atlas Park Revival to light!

Kind of makes one want to find that one person and have......words...with them, doesn't it? :)

[Sinistar]

I should probably say the animation changes...most specificly energy transfer. the set didnt play the same after they changed it. I wont debate whether it was needed or not, it just didnt feel right to me afterwards and I had other toons that remained fun for me. I felt the changes took the fun out of the set for me

Agreed, EM could still be played but the changes to Energy Transfer took some serious getting used to.

Note to CoH revival: please revert the EM changes or offer the old animation/charge times as an alternate power custom choice. :)

[Sinistar]

As a matter of act, I specifically posted in the PvP forums a list of the suggestions made by the PvP forum that the devs were either incorporating or looking to incorporate into PvP at that time, and I was told to "go pound sand."  I was repeatedly told that a) my opinion didn't matter and b) the devs opinion didn't matter and c) if the devs didn't do what was "obviously the right thing" based on PvP forum posts, there was no point in doing anything except setting the place on fire and leaving.  I'm not paraphrasing that.  The version of history you're expressing is not the same one I witnessed at the time.

Incidentally, travel suppression was explicitly a suggestion made by PvPers on the PvP forum (just as Enhancement Diversification was actually a suggestion first made by players).  Just not, apparently, made by the right PvPers.

Here's hoping Revival can revert PVP to pre ish 13, or at least make sure the Arena is unaffected by DR and Travel Suppression

Also might be nice if Lighthouse could be community rep again on the new boards when the game returns.

[LaughingAlex]

Wow!  Just think, that one idiot on the CoX Facebook page almost blew it for everyone!  Yikes! 

Well, I'm really glad talks are still ongoing in any form, and that Team Hail Mary hasn't given up.  I hope they get all the financial backing and personnel support they need to bring CoX i23 and Atlas Park Revival to light!

I wouldn't think it was just one person, but a number of people who insisted they were right, the people warning them not to email ncsoft were wrong, and generally being full of themselves of self righteousness of "I'm a hero and I must send them messages!" even when they'd been told not to.

These people were general zealots and had no idea what they were doing and even did everything they could to say those of us who tried to tell them not to send those emails were wrong.  Bad things are often done under good intentions, especially when it comes to communications :/.

I'm glad they didn't succeed in ruining the talks.  I was certainly ticked they weren't listening to me and even trolling me at one point as I tried to veinly and desparately warn them about it.  People, the worst villains often think they are the heroes.  I especially remember when they were bringing up general myths to try and disprove the "It's rude to email coorporate individuals directly in South Korea" like the whole "Well South Koreans want to be lie us americans!".  The level of overall stereotyping being used to justify their actions was appalling.

Again the worst villains often think they are the heroes.  And these people, from massively to the facebook crowds who ignored everyone else, they really thought they were the good guys sending whatever messages however cruel or nice they were, they were perhaps in reality the biggest saboteurs.

[Codewalker]

The PvP community did try to alert the devs with exploits and input. The problem with i13, there was no input from the PvP community. Heck we even had a list on the PvP Board on how PvP can be made more accessible since i6, but Castle didn't care. Basically Castle had an idea of how PvP was supposed to be and how awesome it was going to be, and we were told to go pound sand because the PvP community is an "acceptable loss"

Poor Floyd... Last time I asked him about I13 PVP (this was casual conversation, long after he no longer worked there), it came out that he hated the design as much as the players did, but it's what was dictated from higher up the management food chain, so nothing anyone told him would have done any good. Yet because he was the "powers guy" at the time and couldn't exactly publicly call out his bosses, he still takes all the blame for it.

I wouldn't think it was just one person

It was one person who precipitated Nate having to make the announcement early. It was someone who was trusted with a small bit of inside info, decided it was a bigger story than it really was, and forced the issue by saying he was going to go public with it if Nate didn't.

Since then, nobody I know of who had been getting inside info and status updates has heard anything at all.

[MM3squints]

Poor Floyd... Last time I asked him about I13 PVP (this was casual conversation, long after he no longer worked there), it came out that he hated the design as much as the players did, but it's what was dictated from higher up the management food chain, so nothing anyone told him would have done any good. Yet because he was the "powers guy" at the time and couldn't exactly publicly call out his bosses, he still takes all the blame for it.

That I never knew. Castle was so admit in defending the new system, it seems like he wanted to impose an idea to the community. Suck to be the sacrificial anode for something you did not even support. Can see he was in a Catch-22. He didn't do it, he would have been fired and they get someone else to do it. He dose it, he has a job, and in that circumstance you can't hate on a person because everyone needs to work and knowing even if you make a stand and get fired, it will eventually happen. Out of curiosity in the casual conversation, did he ever said who was pushing i13 PvP so hard?

[LaughingAlex]

That I never knew. Castle was so admit in defending the new system, it seems like he wanted to impose an idea to the community. Suck to be the sacrificial anode for something you did not even support. Can see he was in a Catch-22. He didn't do it, he would have been fired and they get someone else to do it. He dose it, he has a job, and in that circumstance you can't hate on a person because everyone needs to work and knowing even if you make a stand and get fired, it will eventually happen. Out of curiosity in the casual conversation, did he ever said who was pushing i13 PvP so hard?

Usually there likely was some kind of meddling somewhere, possibly.  We'll never know though, unless somehow somewhere in the deal the new group gets documents about notes and some executive was mentioned at a spot implying meddling :).  Which I wouldn't be surprised though wouldn't happen or something, OR if there are written stuff some names get blotched for non disclosure purposes.

[Sinistar]

Poor Floyd... Last time I asked him about I13 PVP (this was casual conversation, long after he no longer worked there), it came out that he hated the design as much as the players did, but it's what was dictated from higher up the management food chain, so nothing anyone told him would have done any good. Yet because he was the "powers guy" at the time and couldn't exactly publicly call out his bosses, he still takes all the blame for it.

Well that IS interesting news indeed.  Perhaps the revival team in the future can get Castle's input on revamping PVP?

[LaughingAlex]

Well that IS interesting news indeed.  Perhaps the revival team in the future can get Castle's input on revamping PVP?

Another thing may be to really have people really test it and even hold tournaments exclusively in testing.  Look at what they did for Starcraft 2, blizzard had TOURNAMENTS internally held to see how the balance was so high end players could really get a feel for how balanced the game was overall.  I personally think city of heroes was a far more balanced game, but I will say this, in pvp it wasn't the case because of the various powerset weaknesses not allowing them to counter some sets.

So for competitive play, team play should be outright enforced entirely.  Like myth 2 soulblighter forced people into a minimum of two players per team with four players minimum in competitive matches I think city of heroes will have to be a team game in it's pvp if competition is to go on.  Duals should not be ranked, and solo players should also not be ranked, it'd be something for fun in pvp, but not for any kind of serious competition.

Because the only way one can truely ensure skill was what was winning was to ensure everyone was teaming in pvp in CoH.  That was also the case for guild wars as well, you couldn't get into any competitive gametypes without being in some kind of team, it just didn't work.  I mean one example in one on one guild wars would, well, warriors could simply take deadly riposte, and deadly riposte to litterally auto-kill other warriors, for example, as those two combined with gladiators stance were "I win" against other melee characters(block and auto-hit for brutally high damage).  One on one in GW didn't work cause certain builds always auto-beat other builds when played right, which was the case for city of heroes.  There was the time were storm automatically beat pure melee for a reason know?

[brothermutant]

Problem with my opinion off the bat is I hate PvP.   Having said that, my take would be (and here is where I will piss off all the hardcore PvPers) ANY type (class/role) of toon should stand a viable chance of winning at PvP. Not guaranteed, but viable.

I know, that's just crazy talk BUT, if given that both PvPers are equally (or as close as you can get) skilled, then why is it a Regen or Willpower toon will always seem to cream my blaster/defender/SoA/whatever I want to bring to the arena? And in that question lies your innate problem with PvP. And that "jousting" crap was so weird, I didn't even understand what was killing my toons for the longest time as they struck me from half a map away using a MELEE attack. That is definitely wrong some how. Another real problem with PvP (and zones where you are thrust into PvP) is the mandatory PvP mission/requirement. I think that DCUO has a (close to) perfect PvP model running for them now, but even they have a mandatory PvP requirement if you want to unlock the most skill points for your toon (and what player wouldn't want higher stats for their maxed level toon?). I must admit that the PvP Legends part of PvP for DCUO is my favorite way to PvP. At least, most toons are on equal(ish) footing when playing as a Legend toon. There are exceptions to this rule even, which is a real shame.

Sadly:
-Will there be players that use exploits? Always.
-Will there be fine tuning/tweaking of the way PvP is run? Sure.
-Will a myriad of PvPers whine/b!tch/etc every time the slightest change to their old way of PvPing is thrust on them? Pretty much a given.
-Will PvP ever be any fun for people that DON'T like to PvP? Never.
-Will devs continue to ignore the most common sense suggestions for PvP balance? Could be rabbit, could be.

[Vee]

Poor Floyd... Last time I asked him about I13 PVP (this was casual conversation, long after he no longer worked there), it came out that he hated the design as much as the players did, but it's what was dictated from higher up the management food chain, so nothing anyone told him would have done any good. Yet because he was the "powers guy" at the time and couldn't exactly publicly call out his bosses, he still takes all the blame for it.

Can we still blame him for LGTF at least?  ;D

[Codewalker]

Out of curiosity in the casual conversation, did he ever said who was pushing i13 PvP so hard?

He didn't name specific names, no, which I can respect -- it's a tight-knit industry and you don't just badmouth people that you worked with, even if it would be justified. I get the impression that management was under a lot of pressure from corporate to put more focus on PvP, but that's just my unsubstantiated feeling. It's ancient history for him now anyway, and something I think he'd rather not dredge up again.

Can we still blame him for LGTF at least?  ;D

Have at it. :P

[MM3squints]

He didn't name specific names, no, which I can respect -- it's a tight-knit industry and you don't just badmouth people that you worked with, even if it would be justified. I get the impression that management was under a lot of pressure from corporate to put more focus on PvP, but that's just my unsubstantiated feeling. It's ancient history for him now anyway, and something I think he'd rather not dredge up again.

So we can say, "just blame NC Soft" :P >:D *Throws another log on the fire*

[MM3squints]

Problem with my opinion off the bat is I hate PvP.   Having said that, my take would be (and here is where I will piss off all the hardcore PvPers) ANY type (class/role) of toon should stand a viable chance of winning at PvP. Not guaranteed, but viable.

I know, that's just crazy talk BUT, if given that both PvPers are equally (or as close as you can get) skilled, then why is it a Regen or Willpower toon will always seem to cream my blaster/defender/SoA/whatever I want to bring to the arena? And in that question lies your innate problem with PvP. And that "jousting" crap was so weird, I didn't even understand what was killing my toons for the longest time as they struck me from half a map away using a MELEE attack. That is definitely wrong some how. Another real problem with PvP (and zones where you are thrust into PvP) is the mandatory PvP mission/requirement. I think that DCUO has a (close to) perfect PvP model running for them now, but even they have a mandatory PvP requirement if you want to unlock the most skill points for your toon (and what player wouldn't want higher stats for their maxed level toon?). I must admit that the PvP Legends part of PvP for DCUO is my favorite way to PvP. At least, most toons are on equal(ish) footing when playing as a Legend toon. There are exceptions to this rule even, which is a real shame.

Technically speaking any build is viable, just you need to have your powers and pool powers right to fill in the gap (and the right IO Bonus). I used to take out regens using an AR/Fire Blaster, possibly what is seen as the worst PvP build because of the longer animation time from AR, AR not having Aim, and AR being majority Smash/lethal and Fire manipulation where the only 2 powers you really can use in PvP was Ring of Fire and Build up. There will never be 1 for 1 absolutes when 2 people who are playing the same skill set duel, you only can try countering for a higher chance of winning or another top tier build to counter them. Someone plays a Reg/Spines (this is what I'm assuming what you mean they can take you out 1/2 a screen away because Although Spines is a "melee" they have 2 powers that are actually range or it could have been a /EM blaster with boost range) I go something with -regan (Rad/ Cold/ Kin/ Thermal/ Def, /Rad /Cold /Kin /Thermal troller or Corr, Bots/ MM) or something with a ton of Dmg (Fire/EM, Ice/EM Blaster Mind/Fire, Ice/Fire, Ice/Psi Dom)

For the mandatory requirement, I think that is beating a dead horse (if you want to know we had a discussion about this I think page 300-500 in this thread)

Sadly:
-Will there be players that use exploits? Always.

People will always find a way to break the system. That why when there was organized PvP when someone used an exploit, it would be reported in as a bug because teams didn't want to deal with that

-Will there be fine tuning/tweaking of the way PvP is run? Sure.

You always need to change with with the program and adapt to any changes. The only difference with the i13 change was listed in my past post.

-Will a myriad of PvPers whine/b!tch/etc every time the slightest change to their old way of PvPing is thrust on them? Pretty much a given.

Oh ya, people don't like change, but again, in the case of i13 reference my old post.

-Will PvP ever be any fun for people that DON'T like to PvP? Never.

I agree with this. Originally I hated PvP because I was a badger and just wanted to collect badges. Every time I would get attacked when going for badges in PvP zones. There I came to the conclusion, the PvP zone is implemented with the rules of PvP you either follows those rules and enter or don't enter at all, but complaining that being attacked in a PvP zone is not an option because it is a PvP zone. So I learned how to PvP and it turned out to be more indeph and fun than anything PvE

-Will devs continue to ignore the most common sense suggestions for PvP balance? Could be rabbit, could be.

Agree with this, but like Codewalker showed, sometimes it is out of their hands. Could Castle took more time and get more input from the community? Absolutely, but more than likely he was on a deadline to push out this product where they invested money into making. They won't scrap it before launching it to see where their investment takes them (like New Coke)

[Felderburg]

I'd be careful about game balance and players though among pvpers.  You have this kind of player, afterall, a type i've grown to hate many fold more over the past two months http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub .

That was an interesting article. One quote really spoke to me:

[Scrubs] won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics.

This matches up with my (admittedly limited) experience in MMOs. By and large, PvPers are the ones that truly understand the mechanics and balance of the game. Because they are ruthlessly committed to winning against people, instead of the pushovers that are NPCs, they push the boundaries of game mechanics to the limit, and discover issues in game design.

Arcanaville is a notable exception, in that she doesn't appear to have PvPed much (or so I gather from posts here) but has arguably the best grasp on game mechanics of anyone other than devs. So I wonder if her opinion was ignored by the PvPers because, while having the best academic understanding of CoH's mechanics, PvPers assumed she didn't have practical experience with PvP.

And that "jousting" crap was so weird, I didn't even understand what was killing my toons for the longest time as they struck me from half a map away using a MELEE attack. That is definitely wrong some how.
...
-Will there be players that use exploits? Always.

Now this is an interesting quote. While "jousting" may be weird, or "wrong somehow," it is a game mechanic. I would argue that it is not an "exploit." Something like finding a way to use Assassin's Strike without waiting for it to recharge, would be an exploit, that the devs would need to remove right away; whereas jousting is just part of the game. Perhaps the devs should have changed it - I didn't experience it all that much, nor use it that much (except on a stalker - remote AS was super fun!). But the fact is that it was part of the game meant that the "good players," as the article calls them, used it, and found ways to counter it.

Of course, you say yourself that you "hate" PvP, so I don't know what you were even doing in the zones in the first place :p

[Waffles]

Pre-i13 - When PVP was fun.

Sucks that they removed it after i13, replaced it with some unfinished minigame called "Run from the ice blaster."