New efforts!

[LaughingAlex]

Was PVP 3.0 release (unleashed?) during the Cryptic reign? I don't actually remember.
I do remember that Cryptic had a much more pointed view of making changes to the game than Paragon.

As far as pvp 3.0 was concerned, even I thought it was too much and I am/was a defenderphile. When someone with an AR blaster can unleash everything he's got on me (I was on a Sonic/Sonic) and 30 seconds later I'm still at 90% health then something isn't right.

PVp 2.0 and 3.0 were released during paragon studios reign, surprisingly.  Cryptic was more known for enhancement diversification, global defense nerf and generally trying to drive the game into the ground.  CO quickly became exactly what city of heroes would have become(even more-so now) had city of heroes remained under cryptic.

Swear I half wonder if Jack Emmerit was a stop having fun guy, he certainly didn't like people playing his games any differently than he did.  Or a scrub, either way, didn't like how people played his games lol.

[Codewalker]

See I didn't run into that problem... the leveling part of Preatoria, not the "I'm stuck in jail feeling". :-)

/agree

I loved loved loved the Praetoria arcs. Engrossing storyline, and the most fun I'd had playing COH in a long time. The increased difficulty was a welcome change from the slow, plodding, boring "defeat all clockwork" low-level missions in classic COH.

It's probably some of the only content in the game that I actually soloed, mostly so I could read the dialog and play out the moral choices. The rest of the time I almost exclusively teamed, but when teaming it can be hard to slow down and read all the text and dialog sometimes.

I did play through Praetoria on a team a few times, and once you get to 4+ team members you can pretty much steamroll it just like anything else. It helps to have a circle of friends who can schedule a time to do certain content, so you don't have to depend on random people being in X zone (or redside, or goldside) in order to form a team for it. The server population could have been 0 for all I knew or cared, it's all about the out-of-game communication.

[Battlechimp]

The only thing I didn't like was the lack of player base in the 1-20. I spent most of my time basically playing in a solo zone while going through it. If it wasn't for the chat system it would have seemed like a solo game to me.
Maybe that was mostly because I played on Infinity and most of the regulars there were all Incarnate minded.

Now I think I need to Icon into Praetoria and get all misty-eyed. :)

I played on Virtue mostly, when gold side first came out you could find teams easily, but then ran into the problem of out leveling all the arcs real fast.  So I soloed a blaster and a mastermind through things so I could see the resistence and loyalist sides.  Then by the time I went through with other characters, it could be hard to find more than a coupe people to team with, even on Virtue

[Arcana]

I loved loved loved the Praetoria arcs. Engrossing storyline, and the most fun I'd had playing COH in a long time. The increased difficulty was a welcome change from the slow, plodding, boring "defeat all clockwork" low-level missions in classic COH.

The problem was that Paragon didn't market or target Praetoria at veteran players, they targeted it at newbees.  If Praetoria started with normal difficulty and ramped up to the higher difficulty that would be one thing: you could make the case Paragon was trying to get new players used to a steeper difficulty curve from the start.  But to actually start at that difficulty at level 5 when some archetypes have one attack and still haven't tied their shoes yet?  That was just mean.

If Praetoria was like "Epic-world" where when you reached 50, instead of just unlocking Kheldians you also unlocked the ability to start your career in Evil-goatee-land where XP was higher and leveling was faster but the critters were way more difficult, then that would make total sense.  Not worth a boxed expansion, but it would have made sense and I think it would have been better appreciated by the vets.  CoH still needed a Mr. Toad's Wild Ride boxed expansion, though, and it never got it.

[Ankhammon]

CO quickly became exactly what city of heroes would have become(even more-so now) had city of heroes remained under cryptic.

And this is why it's very important to celebrate CO. :)

[Arcana]

CO quickly became exactly what city of heroes would have become(even more-so now) had city of heroes remained under cryptic.

Not so sure about that.  Things happened during the development of CO that would have almost no chance of happening in CoH.  CO boomeranged between Cryptic thinking they could fix all the (things they thought were) mistakes of CoH and ending up with a more "open" game, and then whiplashing away from that when they realized that wouldn't work, all while under the cloud of having very thin content.

I think the Cryptic/Paragon split was influenced by a self-selection process where those that thought they could do better from scratch naturally gravitated towards Cryptic and those who thought they could refine the existing to be better gravitated towards Paragon, and thus we tended to end up with the developers that wanted to expand CoH rather than tear it up, while CO ended up with developers who wanted to sketch on blank canvases which meant CO would always be dramatically different from CoH in many ways.  But I think if you swapped the teams between the games CoH and CO would probably be more like what they are now than people think.  If Paragon was forced to start from scratch way back then, I'm not sure they wouldn't have made a similar boat-load of design errors - perhaps more because I think Cryptic was too influenced by ridiculous beta test discussion.  Paragon might have been even more so.  Conversely, Cryptic would be unable to start from scratch, and forced to live within the framework of the existing game.  They would still try to push the envelope in many areas.  Maybe we would have gone F2P sooner.  That might have even been better for the game's profitability, and it might still be around today (but not necessarily).

I think its a little too easy to generalize the intent and tenor of dev teams.  What they want to do and what we players get is not connected by straight lines, but players often think they can start from the game and draw straight lines backwards to divine how developers think and work.  In my experience, that tends to lead to very wrong results.

[Felderburg]

The (former) devs lowered it to 20, same with Khelds.

You could eventually just buy EATs in the store.

Just out of curiousity. Anyone plan on PvP'n when it returns? I have a feeling that side of the game is going to be dead, unless everyone who still enjoyed it converges to one server.

Seperate side note. Anyone else hoping they only open a few servers to start. Open more as the population grows? That way theres a high population regardless. That was something i thought NC should have done towards the later yeaes.

I'll probably drop in the zones, because they used to be super fun... but after I 13 they were pretty dead, which was not fun. I would love to get more people in there, but I'm not willing to invest the sort of time into community building that it would take,myself.

As for server numbers... fewer is probably better, with the revival, if it's technically possible (there was talk earlier that it might not be, depending on the nature of the disk image - if it already has the old servers hard coded). My knee-jerk reaction is that it would have been terrible to consolidate when the game was alive, as that often signals the death of a game... but who knows? Maybe it would have made it more profitable, despite giving the public signals of death - the actual death came out of the blue, so it's hard to say.

[Dareon Kale]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I want to be a hero again!

Please resume your regularly scheduled posting.

[Sinistar]

You could eventually just buy EATs in the store.

I'll probably drop in the zones, because they used to be super fun... but after I 13 they were pretty dead, which was not fun. I would love to get more people in there, but I'm not willing to invest the sort of time into community building that it would take,myself.

As for server numbers... fewer is probably better, with the revival, if it's technically possible (there was talk earlier that it might not be, depending on the nature of the disk image - if it already has the old servers hard coded). My knee-jerk reaction is that it would have been terrible to consolidate when the game was alive, as that often signals the death of a game... but who knows? Maybe it would have made it more profitable, despite giving the public signals of death - the actual death came out of the blue, so it's hard to say.

The PVP zones would still be needed for map badges, plaque badges (redside) and temp powers like Shivans and Nukes.

PVP will likely be dead upon game revival. I've suggested that Bloody Bay and Siren's Call become Echoes accessible from Ouroborus, leave Warburg and Recluse Victory as regular PVP zones.  Also the new devs/owners should advertise the ARENA, as I recall the Arena either didn't have the "new PVP" rules of diminishing returns or the diminishing returns could be shut off in the arena.

A PVP dedicated server could work, but not right after the game revives, wait at least 6 months for that then offer transfers for those that want to transfer a PVP toon to said server.

[Surelle]

The PVP zones would still be needed for map badges, plaque badges (redside) and temp powers like Shivans and Nukes.

PVP will likely be dead upon game revival. I've suggested that Bloody Bay and Siren's Call become Echoes accessible from Ouroborus, leave Warburg and Recluse Victory as regular PVP zones. Also the new devs/owners should advertise the ARENA, as I recall the Arena either didn't have the "new PVP" rules of diminishing returns or the diminishing returns could be shut off in the arena.

A PVP dedicated server could work, but not right after the game revives, wait at least 6 months for that then offer transfers for those that want to transfer a PVP toon to said server.

Er, let's not forget that there aren't going to be any "new devs for CoX i23" nor any changes, patches or additions to CoX i23 zombie mode, ever, sorry.  But maybe Irish Girl and her Atlas Park Revival Crew can work it into the Unreal 4 CoX 1.5 once that finally hits.   :)

[Teddy Bear Ftw]

The PVP zones would still be needed for map badges, plaque badges (redside) and temp powers like Shivans and Nukes.

PVP will likely be dead upon game revival. I've suggested that Bloody Bay and Siren's Call become Echoes accessible from Ouroborus, leave Warburg and Recluse Victory as regular PVP zones.  Also the new devs/owners should advertise the ARENA, as I recall the Arena either didn't have the "new PVP" rules of diminishing returns or the diminishing returns could be shut off in the arena.

A PVP dedicated server could work, but not right after the game revives, wait at least 6 months for that then offer transfers for those that want to transfer a PVP toon to said server.

PVP dedicated server would be very empty. I'd just have a server be known to house a lot of PVP'ers.

If it is possible to turn off DR in the ARENA, I would be totally willing to help form some organized PVP. I enjoy PVP in every game and CoH is no exception. DR just made it a lot less fun for me.

If there were a few others willing to commit time to forming a PVP community, I'd definitely be willing to commit time to it.

[MM3squints]

PVP dedicated server would be very empty. I'd just have a server be known to house a lot of PVP'ers.

If it is possible to turn off DR in the ARENA, I would be totally willing to help form some organized PVP. I enjoy PVP in every game and CoH is no exception. DR just made it a lot less fun for me.

If there were a few others willing to commit time to forming a PVP community, I'd definitely be willing to commit time to it.

You can turn off DR in the arena. The problem was you couldn't turn off the travel suppression rules or the new Mez system

[Sinistar]

Er, let's not forget that there aren't going to be any "new devs for CoX i23" nor any changes, patches or additions to CoX i23 zombie mode, ever, sorry.  But maybe Irish Girl and her Atlas Park Revival Crew can work it into the Unreal 4 CoX 1.5 once that finally hits.   :)

Yes I know.   

[Sinistar]

You can turn off DR in the arena. The problem was you couldn't turn off the travel suppression rules or the new Mez system

Well i don't travel suppression in the arena is a big problem, it is arena and the maps were meant for combat not zipping around with travel powers.   The new Mez system could be a problem.

Of course if any new devs/owners in CoH 1.5 could see fit as to remove diminishing returns from PVP or at least completely from the Arena.....

[MM3squints]

Well i don't travel suppression in the arena is a big problem, it is arena and the maps were meant for combat not zipping around with travel powers.   The new Mez system could be a problem.

Of course if any new devs/owners in CoH 1.5 could see fit as to remove diminishing returns from PVP or at least completely from the Arena.....

As I stated in my last post it is a huge problem because that is what made CoX PvP. With the new travel suppression rules any hit even if its for 1 dmg will kill your travel power while powers that supposed to -slow you opponents don't even work anymore. Arena battles turned into to hit, hop hop, hibernate and there was no need to chase down targets. The ability to run to spread out the other team while your team counter and pick on a target (usually the kin) was part of the strategy and weighing the pros on cons of go for the kill or stay composed. The new system might as well not use any travel power because you will be fighting like that anyways (and that's really sad imo)

[Felderburg]

I've suggested that Bloody Bay and Siren's Call become Echoes accessible from Ouroborus, leave Warburg and Recluse Victory as regular PVP zones.

Boooooo!!!!  >:( Siren's Call is awesome! It's one of the best PvP zones, when you've got a bunch of people in it! Bloody Bay is super fun too - I was right at its level when CoV came out, and had TONS of fun there..... until it became a desolate wasteland, where people got Shivans, and Siren's was the primary PvP place to be... but still.

A PVP dedicated server could work, but not right after the game revives, wait at least 6 months for that then offer transfers for those that want to transfer a PVP toon to said server.

I highly doubt a PvP dedicated server could work. Ever. Even at the height of CoH's popularity. If there wasn't one then, why would there be one in the future?

[MM3squints]

I highly doubt a PvP dedicated server could work. Ever. Even at the height of CoH's popularity. If there wasn't one then, why would there be one in the future?

There was it was called Test Server

[Sinistar]

Boooooo!!!!  >:( Siren's Call is awesome! It's one of the best PvP zones, when you've got a bunch of people in it! Bloody Bay is super fun too - I was right at its level when CoV came out, and had TONS of fun there..... until it became a desolate wasteland, where people got Shivans, and Siren's was the primary PvP place to be... but still.

I highly doubt a PvP dedicated server could work. Ever. Even at the height of CoH's popularity. If there wasn't one then, why would there be one in the future?

I have nothing against the PVP zones, however the fact is that as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong) but Diminishing Returns was basically rammed down our throats, and the devs response was basically 'suck it up and get used to it" to put it nicely.  As a result the popularity of PVP basically disintegrated and many PVP players quit.

As to a dedicated server, we are talking about CoH rising from the grave as it were, so a PVP server may work this time. Or may not.  Remove diminishng returns from PvP or at least from the Arena and popularity may rise again.

I enjoyed using the arena for one on one fights with others. No interference from other players, just one to one combat, mano y mano.  I would love to see it return.

[Arcana]

Diminishing Returns was basically rammed down our throats, and the devs response was basically 'suck it up and get used to it" to put it nicely.

True for basically all major system changes in City of Heroes, and for that matter every other MMO.

We had a lot of input and feedback channels into the CoH dev process, more than I've ever seen anywhere else, but there were limits and those limits were simply never going to change, nor do I think it would have been practical for them to change.  Two things we could do, and did do: we could suggest something that didn't exist before, and the devs could then add that thing.  That happened a lot.  We could also tweak the details of new things that came along, once those things were announced and beta tested.  That also happened a lot.

What we couldn't do, and would never really be able to do, as players, was ask the devs to take something they had spent significant time implementing, and tell them to simply scrap it and replace it with something else.  I would often tell players not to make such suggestions, but to instead find ways to take what was there and try to change it or shape it in directions the players preferred.  Some players never took that advice, but I can say that never in the history of the game can I think of an example where the devs spent considerable time on a major systems addition or change, and simply abandon it because players didn't like it.  The closest example I can think of that is close is Blaster Defiance.  The devs did eventually remove it, but only years after introducing it, and only after they had already decided to replace it with something else.

If players were smart, they would have tried to work with the devs to improve ED, rather than just saying "get rid of it."  All that energy went exactly nowhere.  There were lots of ways to improve it, but those of us that advocated that were drowned out by the general cacophony of hyperbole and insanity.  The same was true for diminishing returns.  Lots of ways to work with the devs to improve it, but since most of the vocal PvP players basically told the devs "you don't know what you are doing, do what we demand or we're leaving" that's all that happened.  If you think the strategy of "do what I demand or I'm leaving" has ever been a productive strategy in the history of MMOs, time to brush up on history.  If that's how players feel, they should simply skip straight to quitting, because nothing else is going to happen.

There were things the developers could do, and things they could not do.  The players that understood that often got a lot of good things done in the game.  Those that didn't pounded their foreheads against the pavement until they calmed down or quit.  The primary choice players had, was to decide which group they wanted to be in.

[Harpospoke]

d) remove (or at least lessen) the limitations from PB/WS. I hate getting borked by those purple worm thingies. They blow and make everyone on my team hate bringing me with them.

I saw a lot of that too and that was probably why I put almost zero effort into making a PB/WS.   I don't know about the "If that bothered you, it means you were a lousy player" thing.   They sure seemed to cause a lot of chaos and death.  I would sometimes get private tells complaining that I had added a PB/WS.  Might be something that isn't meant for casual players.