Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 6001284 times)

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13840 on: December 29, 2014, 08:15:03 PM »
Oh we know that. That's what makes it funny! (Well okay... to us anyway. You had to be there ;D )

Great name for a Mastermind - Woolies Bullies.

darkgob

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13841 on: December 30, 2014, 03:51:29 AM »
There change had invalidated a lot of actual money spent on the cash shop.  Tons of it.  There WERE lawsuits over crap like this to for other games that did this kind of crap and people had told me said lawsuits SUCCEEDED.

...

Edit: Even if a lawsuit doesn't occur it's still driving a lot of people away.  Tons of them.  The CO zones are practically 'dead' as it was, usually less than 300 people are in MC though I wouldn't be surprised if these days it's less than 200.  People are not happy with cryptic north and some are even very angry with it's community(myself included).

Another Edit:  http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8737.0;wap2 refers to the actual case, I am still trying to locate it.

The forum thread you linked has one person observe that "Chinese courts are often Crazytown" (this didn't even happen in the US).  And that ruling is indeed Crazytown, as taken to its logical conclusion makes any attempt at balancing a purchased game item to the player's detriment a potential lawsuit.

I don't disagree that it's an abhorrent way to treat your playerbase, but lawsuit it ain't.  Check post #5 of the CO thread, made by the OP of that same thread -- no claims regarding legality are being made here.  Like another poster in that thread says, it's a matter of ethics.

Also, is it possible that you've mistakenly discounted the possibility that Cryptic is simply so inept that every cash shop item they release is way more overpowered than they actually intended, thus making the string of nerfs an unfortunate consequence of their own stupidity? Never ascribe to malice, etc. ;)

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13842 on: December 30, 2014, 04:02:49 AM »
The forum thread you linked has one person observe that "Chinese courts are often Crazytown" (this didn't even happen in the US).  And that ruling is indeed Crazytown, as taken to its logical conclusion makes any attempt at balancing a purchased game item to the player's detriment a potential lawsuit.

I don't disagree that it's an abhorrent way to treat your playerbase, but lawsuit it ain't.  Check post #5 of the CO thread, made by the OP of that same thread -- no claims regarding legality are being made here.  Like another poster in that thread says, it's a matter of ethics.

Also, is it possible that you've mistakenly discounted the possibility that Cryptic is simply so inept that every cash shop item they release is way more overpowered than they actually intended, thus making the string of nerfs an unfortunate consequence of their own stupidity? Never ascribe to malice, etc. ;)

I know there aren't any claims of legality being made in the cash shops concern thread :).   And I haven't really discounted that, hell if you read my posts in that you'll notice that I say that "This does seem to be bait and switch, whether intentional or not".  I don't believe it was fully intentional.  Just...worried know?

Heck, I actually have my sig defending the guys in the CO forums.
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Felderburg

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13843 on: December 30, 2014, 09:01:38 PM »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

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LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13844 on: December 30, 2014, 10:53:43 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 07:11:03 PM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

darkgob

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13845 on: December 31, 2014, 01:14:12 AM »

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13846 on: December 31, 2014, 01:41:00 AM »
Same thing happened in CoH, only difference is the lack of pay shop items/abilities.

lolpvp

Well, if it's something that can be earned in game that is nerfed, as in 100% and in a viable manner that doesn't take forever, it's one thing to see a nerf or adjustment.  In the case of a cash-shop only item though, a nerf can cause alot of extremely unhealthy fits.  And as any nerf thats excessive that was suggested by a try-hard, it was also suggested without any idea it could have negative repurcussions.

Likewise I noticed that, other than the pvp messup, though, paragon studios seemed very hesitant to nerf something.  It seemed to me they did not want to cause any sizable "Exit events", as positron himself even mentioned that about changes that cause people to leave.  So that tells me that paragon studios would think ahead with any changes they had on the table, and probably had a lot of ideas they concluded would just cause people to quit in a bad way.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Harpospoke

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13847 on: December 31, 2014, 05:54:22 AM »
Boy I'm glad I never had the slightest urge to try CO!   Kinda knew it would only remind me of CoH and I would spend all my time wishing things were "more like CoH".   I went away from super heroes completely and went with D&D online.  Thought that might work since it's a different genre.   Nope....didn't care for it.   ...Spent all my time being reminded of the things I liked better in CoH!    ;D   Finally figured out I'm not a "gamer" at all....just a "CoH player".   I don't know if that's easier or not.   I won't play anything else to "scratch that itch", but I also don't have to endure "not CoH" every day.

couldn't that be said of any server? I remember hearing bad things about all the servers. I chose freedom after doing a lot of research it had the biggest player base. I agree there were a few bad players, however, this is indicative of everyone on freedom. In fact there were more then a few that would help other regardless if they had something to do or not. I can say I enjoyed my time there. :) the only time I did not play on was if the server was down or I was on a break.
Same here.   I moved to Freedom from Champion and never regretted it.   I kept hearing stories about Freedom after I moved that didn't line up with my experience.   I was even an avid PuG player.   So I grouped with different people every day.  I really can't think of anyone who did anything overly "Freedumb".  I met a wide variety of people ranging from dedicated TF runners to farmers....nice people everywhere.   There were several awesome channels that allowed me to find a team at the drop of a hat or provide answers to questions or aid in achieving a badge.   I even ventured into the PvP zones a few times for the temp powers...and once in the big PvP zone where you try to take over several stations.   Tense and I didn't like it much, but the players seemed fine.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13848 on: December 31, 2014, 06:00:29 AM »
Likewise I noticed that, other than the pvp messup, though, paragon studios seemed very hesitant to nerf something.  It seemed to me they did not want to cause any sizable "Exit events", as positron himself even mentioned that about changes that cause people to leave.  So that tells me that paragon studios would think ahead with any changes they had on the table, and probably had a lot of ideas they concluded would just cause people to quit in a bad way.

After the debacles of ED, GDN and PvP nerfs, I like to think they learned a valuable lesson.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13849 on: December 31, 2014, 06:35:29 AM »
After the debacles of ED, GDN and PvP nerfs, I like to think they learned a valuable lesson.

Thats actually why I liked Paragon studios, they learned from their mistakes.  It's something CN doesn't seem to learn from.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13850 on: December 31, 2014, 06:47:00 AM »
Thats actually why I liked Paragon studios, they learned from their mistakes.  It's something CN doesn't seem to learn from.

Bioware just denies they ever make mistakes..that and you almost never talk to a dev, just the guy they have fronting for them that doesnt know anything that is going on

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13851 on: December 31, 2014, 06:58:33 AM »
Bioware just denies they ever make mistakes..that and you almost never talk to a dev, just the guy they have fronting for them that doesnt know anything that is going on

That is half what trail turtle and some of the forum moderators are in CO's forums.  They generally just try to do damage control and at times censor things.  I feel bad for them to be honest.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Safehouse

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13852 on: December 31, 2014, 02:43:26 PM »
That is half what trail turtle and some of the forum moderators are in CO's forums.  They generally just try to do damage control and at times censor things.  I feel bad for them to be honest.

Yeah and CO and I see it in DCUO's forums as well. I feel bad in general for the community moderators/publicity folks. It seems like they're dealing with a fairly vitriolic crowd 90% of the time.


That said, I occasionally watched things get heated in the CoH forums too.

When you go to internet forums, there's no avoiding it I suppose.
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Abraxus

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13853 on: December 31, 2014, 04:48:21 PM »
Yeah and CO and I see it in DCUO's forums as well. I feel bad in general for the community moderators/publicity folks. It seems like they're dealing with a fairly vitriolic crowd 90% of the time.


That said, I occasionally watched things get heated in the CoH forums too.

When you go to internet forums, there's no avoiding it I suppose.

People tend to get passionate about the things these days, and with the power of the internet, they have a medium to express their perspective on any topic, at any time.  It gets kind of scary when you see the level of discourse, divide, and sometimes outright hatred expressed on things like news stories at other sites.  It makes you wonder if the hate speak is really who these people are, or if the ability to blast this stuff out there with the degree of anonymity that forums allow just invites folks to take it to a level they would otherwise never go to?  Then there are the trolls that get their jollies from stirring the pot.  It can get pretty crazy out there, and it can bring you low if you let it. 

On the other hand (and to your credit), I have not seen things go anywhere near that far around here, which is refreshing.  Sure, there has been some debate about specific aspects of the deal to bring CoX back to life, but it never devolved to the vitriolic sludge levels I have seen elsewhere.  The worst I have seen here is reaching a point of "agree to disagree".  That says something good about this community IMHO!  Love the game, proud to be a long standing member of the community (even if I only started posting publicly of late), and can't wait to see you all in-game soon!
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Ohioknight

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13854 on: December 31, 2014, 05:24:57 PM »
...  Finally figured out I'm not a "gamer" at all....just a "CoH player".   

Yah, me too...  :'(
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Angel Phoenix77

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13855 on: December 31, 2014, 06:34:47 PM »
Yeah and CO and I see it in DCUO's forums as well. I feel bad in general for the community moderators/publicity folks. It seems like they're dealing with a fairly vitriolic crowd 90% of the time.


Sometimes it is needed to try and get some kind of responds from the dev team. I too feel bad for the community mods having to deal with the mess the dev teams always make. Such as next to no deving on co, then expecting players to be nice and bring in more players. For co I brought in a total of 10 from city of. now only 1 plays. In real life people I know I brought in more I even told them what t expect, now none of them play because the co dev team and cryptic/pwe wans co in the state it is in now. There is nothing preventing the from turning around co a year ago, now I think it past the point of no return.
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Safehouse

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13856 on: December 31, 2014, 07:02:54 PM »
People tend to get passionate about the things these days, and with the power of the internet, they have a medium to express their perspective on any topic, at any time.  It gets kind of scary when you see the level of discourse, divide, and sometimes outright hatred expressed on things like news stories at other sites.  It makes you wonder if the hate speak is really who these people are, or if the ability to blast this stuff out there with the degree of anonymity that forums allow just invites folks to take it to a level they would otherwise never go to?  Then there are the trolls that get their jollies from stirring the pot.  It can get pretty crazy out there, and it can bring you low if you let it. 

On the other hand (and to your credit), I have not seen things go anywhere near that far around here, which is refreshing.  Sure, there has been some debate about specific aspects of the deal to bring CoX back to life, but it never devolved to the vitriolic sludge levels I have seen elsewhere.  The worst I have seen here is reaching a point of "agree to disagree".  That says something good about this community IMHO!  Love the game, proud to be a long standing member of the community (even if I only started posting publicly of late), and can't wait to see you all in-game soon!


Hey it's cool, I was a lurker for years; I didn't even start posting until about 6 months after shutdown. And I agree, even at its most contentious, neither Titan nor the disagreements that take place on its threads are overly hostile or venomous.

There is a lot to be said for the power of anonymity on forums. People have a much easier time being trolls when they can hide behind the computer screen, and there's no shortage of folks like that in the world.

However, and I believe this way more often than not, most of the people who get really intense, hostile, unreasonable, or otherwise, are the kind of people who are passionate, and they mean well, but are swept away in the torrents of their emotions. Passion may not pay the rent, but when it comes to community, I'd rather see a passionate one than one that does not care. I think that we, as a player base, are wildly passionate about City of, and the possibilities for it's future. But I also believe that we've learned to temper our passion with discourse and open-mindedness, and hone it into something more productive than pure fiery fervor.
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Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13857 on: December 31, 2014, 07:20:04 PM »
Every time we had a nerf in CoX, we had fifty people in the forums screaming about how valid the nerf was, because it was "bringing balance to the game."

The fact that others saw the nerf as a new UNbalancing bounced right off of their armor. They didn't care, just so long as the game mechanic they hated most got nerfed. And don't even bother posting about why you thought the nerf was wrong, because you'd get called all kinds of names.

As for CO, what's going on is mostly invisible to my gameplay. I run missions alone, and alerts with a bunch of random strangers who often don't even address one word to each other during said alert. My highest level character, a level 38 dual-swords melee type, does very well on her own. I have two lowbies whom I'm having trouble getting attached to due to their extreme squishiness [one of them is a Sorcery type], and another Fire based one [level 30] who is doing well. Unless you have friends in CO, you'll be running alone and these issues will be mostly invisible to you.

The only people I ever interact with are on the CoX channel there. Which speaks volumes, really. >;)

Safehouse

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13858 on: December 31, 2014, 07:26:41 PM »
Every time we had a nerf in CoX, we had fifty people in the forums screaming about how valid the nerf was, because it was "bringing balance to the game."

The fact that others saw the nerf as a new UNbalancing bounced right off of their armor. They didn't care, just so long as the game mechanic they hated most got nerfed. And don't even bother posting about why you thought the nerf was wrong, because you'd get called all kinds of names.

As for CO, what's going on is mostly invisible to my gameplay. I run missions alone, and alerts with a bunch of random strangers who often don't even address one word to each other during said alert. My highest level character, a level 38 dual-swords melee type, does very well on her own. I have two lowbies whom I'm having trouble getting attached to due to their extreme squishiness [one of them is a Sorcery type], and another Fire based one [level 30] who is doing well. Unless you have friends in CO, you'll be running alone and these issues will be mostly invisible to you.

The only people I ever interact with are on the CoX channel there. Which speaks volumes, really. >;)

I was the same way with DCUO for the brief time I played, and CO for the even briefer time. I just didn't feel like I had anything to say. The Secret World, on the other hand, has been a very different and much more positive community experience. Haven't done any teaming, but I'm able to get on the global chat and just hang out, which is cool.

I wasn't into CoX when a lot of the nerfing was happening, so I actually didn't know about that. Interesting history.
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umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13859 on: January 01, 2015, 12:04:44 AM »
Every time we had a nerf in CoX, we had fifty people in the forums screaming about how valid the nerf was, because it was "bringing balance to the game."

The fact that others saw the nerf as a new UNbalancing bounced right off of their armor. They didn't care, just so long as the game mechanic they hated most got nerfed. And don't even bother posting about why you thought the nerf was wrong, because you'd get called all kinds of names.

I guess I was one of those "nerf-validity" posters depending on the specific nerf in question.  Over the years I was in favor of multiple nerfs that the CoH devs implemented.  Of numerous buffs as well, but I'm more curious about the perception that agreeing with any nerf was seemingly bad.

So lets get to a specific example as all too often the vague and generalized notion of "nerf" ends up with people talking around each other.  Lets take... say, regen scrappers.  Early on (Issue one, IIRC) I was playing a claws/SR scrapper and boy it was an uphill battle.  If you'll recall DEF scaling worked differently back then, perhaps best described as it *didn't* scale.  Taking on +2 critters effectively turned my scrappers armor into tissue paper, running on an 8-man team was asking to be dropped every single battle unless I was quick on the draw with Respites.  DEF was in dire need of some dev attention and I said so on the forums.

Meanwhile, regen scrappers were nigh-unstoppable.  They weren't merely good, they transcended scrapper-dom and effectively served as an additional tanker option with greater damage output to boot.  In some cases they were superior to other tankers, notably Ice tankers who were suffering all on their own with the games DEF issues.  My best friend had a kat/regen and we routinely duo'd as well as PUGing, we even traded accounts now and then as I wanted to verify what I was seeing but really it didn't take a rocket scientist to spot the vast performance gulf between these two powersets.  So I said so on the forums as well.

I know some "anti-nerfers" were of the mindset to never reduce the power of anything, that the solution would always to bring the powerlevel of everything else up to par.  Thats a nice idea but I didn't see it as a practical solution, in this case it would mean every scrapper secondary needed a substantial buff and even worse every single tanker primary AND secondary needed to be buffed up to the over-performer's level.  Or a single powerset that was clearly doing more than it was ever intended to do could be tweaked downwards.  Realistically there was only one choice here and the devs followed it.  Regen was nerfed to being "only" a solid scrapper armor set.  And the DEF rules eventually got adjusted too, SR became playable on teams.  More viable sets = more viable alts to keep the playerbase happy exploring new builds.

The only argument I ever saw against regen's nerf that I found to have any validity was claiming it would run off players.  I've no idea if the claim was valid or not, I saw some people state they'd leave the game if the nerfs stayed in place only to see them continue posting weeks and months later.  Maybe some people did leave the game over it, I honestly don't know.  But I truly believe *more* people would have left the game over the then-coming months and years if the only viable scrapper secondary was Regen.  So while I acknowledged the argument as a valid point but believed there was a stronger counter-point.  There were plenty of nonsensical arguments passed around including threats of legal action.  The rebuttal I remember being entertained by the most was "regen is balanced... everyone can roll a regenner".  Apparently some players would have been happy if the game devolved into City of Regens, personally I championed for every set being roughly on par made for a better, longer-lasting game. 

I loved the regen set.  Ended up with two or three L50s regenners in my stable, even with the nerfs it was capable of amazing feats of survival.  And I honestly believe the set, the scrapper and tanker archetypes, and the game as a whole benefited from Regen's demotion from a tanker-level armorset to scrapper-level.  There was no "hate" or animosity.  Never understood this assumption of hatred when to my eyes I loved the game more than diehard regen-only players who appeared to only being jealously guarding their advantage.  I wasn't a regen player, I wasn't a SR player - I was a CoHer who played both and more besides.