Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 6176913 times)

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13860 on: January 01, 2015, 12:23:49 AM »
CO is really easy because after they did the huge dumbass launch day nerf to auto powers and powersets, they slowly nerfed npcs and buffed many powers most notably melee. Melee was quite weak at launch. They even buffed up some of the powers they nerfed at launch to draw back all of the lifetime subscribers that canceled. (Which btw you couldn't cancel lifetime subscriptions at first)

Npc nerfs to name a few:
Most npcs had -travel power debuffs that would shut off your superspeed or flight - Those of you that grinded costume pieces in Monster Island (CO's monster island) probably remember this annoying npc feature.

*Tough* status removed from many npcs
Signature villains in solo content toned down severely -  Villains like MindSlayer were actually dangerous before.

Bottom line is cryptic has a bad history in overnerfing powers and encounters rather than taking it slowly. Often times what's really need is adding harder more challenging modes and encounters that reward you.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13861 on: January 01, 2015, 12:41:09 AM »
I guess I was one of those "nerf-validity" posters depending on the specific nerf in question.  Over the years I was in favor of multiple nerfs that the CoH devs implemented.  Of numerous buffs as well, but I'm more curious about the perception that agreeing with any nerf was seemingly bad.

So lets get to a specific example as all too often the vague and generalized notion of "nerf" ends up with people talking around each other.  Lets take... say, regen scrappers.  Early on (Issue one, IIRC) I was playing a claws/SR scrapper and boy it was an uphill battle.  If you'll recall DEF scaling worked differently back then, perhaps best described as it *didn't* scale.  Taking on +2 critters effectively turned my scrappers armor into tissue paper, running on an 8-man team was asking to be dropped every single battle unless I was quick on the draw with Respites.  DEF was in dire need of some dev attention and I said so on the forums.

Meanwhile, regen scrappers were nigh-unstoppable.  They weren't merely good, they transcended scrapper-dom and effectively served as an additional tanker option with greater damage output to boot.  In some cases they were superior to other tankers, notably Ice tankers who were suffering all on their own with the games DEF issues.  My best friend had a kat/regen and we routinely duo'd as well as PUGing, we even traded accounts now and then as I wanted to verify what I was seeing but really it didn't take a rocket scientist to spot the vast performance gulf between these two powersets.  So I said so on the forums as well.

I know some "anti-nerfers" were of the mindset to never reduce the power of anything, that the solution would always to bring the powerlevel of everything else up to par.  Thats a nice idea but I didn't see it as a practical solution, in this case it would mean every scrapper secondary needed a substantial buff and even worse every single tanker primary AND secondary needed to be buffed up to the over-performer's level.  Or a single powerset that was clearly doing more than it was ever intended to do could be tweaked downwards.  Realistically there was only one choice here and the devs followed it.  Regen was nerfed to being "only" a solid scrapper armor set.  And the DEF rules eventually got adjusted too, SR became playable on teams.  More viable sets = more viable alts to keep the playerbase happy exploring new builds.

The only argument I ever saw against regen's nerf that I found to have any validity was claiming it would run off players.  I've no idea if the claim was valid or not, I saw some people state they'd leave the game if the nerfs stayed in place only to see them continue posting weeks and months later.  Maybe some people did leave the game over it, I honestly don't know.  But I truly believe *more* people would have left the game over the then-coming months and years if the only viable scrapper secondary was Regen.  So while I acknowledged the argument as a valid point but believed there was a stronger counter-point.  There were plenty of nonsensical arguments passed around including threats of legal action.  The rebuttal I remember being entertained by the most was "regen is balanced... everyone can roll a regenner".  Apparently some players would have been happy if the game devolved into City of Regens, personally I championed for every set being roughly on par made for a better, longer-lasting game. 

I loved the regen set.  Ended up with two or three L50s regenners in my stable, even with the nerfs it was capable of amazing feats of survival.  And I honestly believe the set, the scrapper and tanker archetypes, and the game as a whole benefited from Regen's demotion from a tanker-level armorset to scrapper-level.  There was no "hate" or animosity.  Never understood this assumption of hatred when to my eyes I loved the game more than diehard regen-only players who appeared to only being jealously guarding their advantage.  I wasn't a regen player, I wasn't a SR player - I was a CoHer who played both and more besides.

The big difference between the nerfs in city of heroes, and the nerfs in champions online, is that the nerfs in champions online were always far, far harsher.  And often such that you just as well have removed some aspect or another.  The fact that they target stuff that can only be used and obtained with actual real life money is where they go to far.  But they often forget to look at a large number of abilities that are truely worthless.  A good example right now is crowd control in general, in CO, instantly ends the moment anything hits the enemies under almost any effect but stun, and stun only lasts 2-3 seconds.  And is ST only and only affects enemies you wouldn't want to bother ccing in the first place.

Another fun example are most "Blast" powers, which are single target charge-up attacks that do very, very sub-par damage.  The damage is low enough no one uses any of them except for one, ricochete throw.  Ricochete throw can hit up to 10 guys from stealth, or bounce 10 times total among 2-3 guys.  Its actually far more balanced when you factor; it has to charge up, and to hit 10 times rather than a normal 5 times you have to be in stealth.  But it's quite litterally the only good blast power right now.

Other blast powers however have no nuances, and do very pitifully low damage.  Like not even a third of the dps of most maintained st attacks.  So they are in consequence outright useless.  Often if a player has it, it's exclusively because he's an AT and he likely outright ignores the attack as even his AoEs are likely to far, far out-damage the blast power.  Especially if you have the energy generation to use anything better or at a higher tier.

Then of course theres the various passives no one uses.  Every freeform more or less uses either, if they are going for damage, night warrior, cause it improves ALL damage and combined with justice gear can actually achieve the 25 dodge/50 avoidance, quarry for it's stat bonus(but it's dodge/avoidance is worst than night warrior atm), OR they do not use the offensive role at all and use aura of primal majesty because it's the lulz even after the nerf.

For defensive passives?  You MUST be melee to get any good use out of LR, that or your going to be regeneration, defiance or invulnerability.  The dodge-nerf in CO(yes, it had one) made personal force fields completely unviable, and the fire and ice rampage didn't help either, every pff user that didn't want to touch other things moved on from CO outright including the most prominent user of personal force fields.  Because PFF has no damage mitigation, and it's impossible to keep it going against frosticus.  Once it's down, it's useless, thus, regen, invuln and defiance are better choices since they ALWAYS help you.  Or Lightning reflexes but you cannot ever hope to get high enough dodge without being a melee build while also using evasive maneuvers and thundering kicks, the first power being extremely contradictory to melee but thundering kicks is ESSENTIAL to get the critical 100% dodge or "Die instantly in one unlucky shot from a BASIC TAP ATTACK" during the fire and ice rampage.

As for vehicles?  WEll the plasma beam nerf and AA missile nerf pretty much made sure you exclusively used incindiary round or gravity field, because every, single other weapons dps was far, far lower than even a tank roles assault rifle.  Yes, it's THAT bad.

Edit: I guess one thing about CO thats true, is that, it's really what cryptic wanted to do to CoH in the long run.  The fact that you had overkill nerfs to some powers, occasionally an overkill buff, and a general ignorance of their own gameplay is what truely killed CO in the "balance" department.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 01:03:08 AM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13862 on: January 01, 2015, 01:18:23 AM »
CO is really easy because after they did the huge dumbass launch day nerf to auto powers and powersets, they slowly nerfed npcs and buffed many powers most notably melee. Melee was quite weak at launch. They even buffed up some of the powers they nerfed at launch to draw back all of the lifetime subscribers that canceled. (Which btw you couldn't cancel lifetime subscriptions at first)

Npc nerfs to name a few:
Most npcs had -travel power debuffs that would shut off your superspeed or flight - Those of you that grinded costume pieces in Monster Island (CO's monster island) probably remember this annoying npc feature.

*Tough* status removed from many npcs
Signature villains in solo content toned down severely -  Villains like MindSlayer were actually dangerous before.

Bottom line is cryptic has a bad history in overnerfing powers and encounters rather than taking it slowly. Often times what's really need is adding harder more challenging modes and encounters that reward you.

Yeah, thats kind of how i feel about CO.  They had to cater to the lowest common denominator and then they had a tendency to nerf everything, it's like they just didn't know what they were doing.  Ahem.

"Ok, we nerfed tons of powers, but now some things are harder than we expected."

"Well, alot of powers are, um, useless now?"

"Yes, but we should be THE HERO OF THE UNIVERSE.  I know!  LEts tone all the enemies down so we win every time!"

*Nerfed bosses so they were easy, now all the other players who weren't suffering some kind of ultra reflex problem and actually have some common sense are complaining the game is to easy* 

*But also melee scrubs are mad they cannot compete in pvp, even though smart melee users are utterly slaughtering ranged players with telekinesis*

*They buff melee excessively to cater to the pvpers, now melee kills everything in 1-2 shots, ranged players complain, so they do the same to range but only for very select powers in range*

"Well, now people are mad the game is to easy."  "Nonesense, I suck at this game"  "Dude have you looked at any of the powers, you don't even have an energy unlock and your trying to use force cascade on no recovery with a 300 endurance!"  "Yes but your supposed to spend 20-30 seconds between every attack, you get more um, experience that way!  Now nerf the higher tier melee attacks!"

*Melee attacks 'nerfed', but only the higher tier attacks.  Tier 0 melee buffed*

"Now everyone is exclusively using melee combos and ignoring the higher tier abilities."  "Oh who cares the higher tier abilities are supposed to be rarely used."  "Well, ranged attackers still use advanced powers, but why are there so few players left?"  "I dunno, they don't know how awesome our game is, the stupid pricks left for inferior games."  "Wait we don't have any raids and healers are mad they are not getting to piggyback everywhere since everyone solos."  "Hmmm, I know, lets make a raid that requires these completely attackless healers who have been sitting around doing nothing this whole time!"  "Oh yeah they feel they would be helpful if dodging was nerfed, and since we need the money.  LEts nerf dodging and then release some new powerful super items that cost money for sure."  "But we already have gear like that!"  "Well, nerfing dodging would nerf the gear that costed money to, so they'd have to buy our NEW gear."  "BRILLIANT!"

*Players leave because now their freeform characters that were not purely damage, healers or tanks had become nearly useless in the latest content and on top of that the fire and ice rampage is boring from people just sitting there pounding a meatsack forever.*  "Damnit, that did not work.  Ok, um, what else, oh..."


  "We did release vehicles and alot of people are using them.  Overpowered?"  "I suck at keeping in range of enemies on a vehicle I always overshoot them!  Nerf the mobility!  Oh and since I am dying tons of times buff the durability so I can sit still in a dozen lasers unaffected!"  "No, better, make it so if I have regenerating mods on my vehicle, make it so I can sit in boiling LAVA in monster island indefinently!"  "Yes, and lets charge 15 dollars for this um, upgrade.  Lets disregard that the person asking for a slot improvement said he favors high speed and only wants to improve crappier vehicles that are never used."  "That guys a jerk anyways, he always asks for variety and generally asks us to buff enemies back to where they were.  Prick."

"So here we go, vehicles 2.0 is out.  Wait, whats with this bait and switch thread?  Oh screw it, ignore it for now.  People who do not ever use vehicles and never spent any money on them hate plasma beam, ok lets nerf it."  "Wait, why is everyone now calling us a bait and switch operation?"

"But now people are killing things with plasma cannon...ok still are."  "I hate plasma cannon, nerf that stupid thing and make sure it's nerfed enough no one uses it!"  *Now the bait and switch thread gets extremely popular, and now people are starting to call cryptic north on it.  People are so angry at the people asking for nerfs now that they are throwing very nasty threats and the moderators instantly get attacked*  "But, but we never meant to hurt anybody!"  *Player jypes in* "Nobody ever does!"

......Sorry I got carried away there.

Edit: Included the fire and ice rampage.

And yes, I suspect they did have a dislike of me.  Why else would they take my idea and twist it into their bait and switch scheme I was to blind to see at the time?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 01:41:37 AM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13863 on: January 01, 2015, 12:09:10 PM »
happy medieval era mandated New Year, where the old new years celebration took place on the first of april celebrating the spring's survivors of the cold winter weather and the ability to grow crops again and now the farm animals wont go hungry, and the new newyear takes place right before the worst of the winter weather hits in January to give the people who are going to die One more big celebration before they kick it because of cold weather.

A little known fact, after Christmas Santa peels off his fake skin and dons a black robe a sickle. "It's time for you to pay for all those presents I gave when you were a kid, WITH YOUR SOUL"

Deadpan mode; Jokes aside the new year celebration being over means one more hurdle is down for the return of CoH, though the Executives probably wont be back in the office till mid to late January at best and that's if they don't celebrate Spring festival in february. just restating myself, because executives like time off, they will probably find any excuse even if it is a Chinese festival and not part of korean culture.

So one more hurdle to go before negotiations can resume at full speed again, however that isn't to say that work is not being done right now, again the temporary transfer company is hard at work making a server image that is acceptable to release according to the legal demands NCSoft and Nate and crew have requested (of which I know nothing). there is a distinct possibility that when the executives do return from break the server image will be acceptable for release which means negotiations can fast track at a  remarkable pace.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Ankhammon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13864 on: January 01, 2015, 05:02:23 PM »
Deadpan mode; Jokes aside the new year celebration being over means one more hurdle is down for the return of CoH, though the Executives probably wont be back in the office till mid to late January at best and that's if they don't celebrate Spring festival in february. just restating myself, because executives like time off, they will probably find any excuse even if it is a Chinese festival and not part of korean culture.


Those are team building exercises designed to bring unity to the company.

They are also deductible for Tax purposes.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

CrimsonCapacitor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13865 on: January 01, 2015, 05:11:20 PM »
If you'll recall DEF scaling worked differently back then, perhaps best described as it *didn't* scale.  Taking on +2 critters effectively turned my scrappers armor into tissue paper, running on an 8-man team was asking to be dropped every single battle unless I was quick on the draw with Respites. 

You mean that's NOT how the /SR powerset is supposed to work?

WHY WASN'T I TOLD THIS??!!

 ;D
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Eoraptor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13866 on: January 01, 2015, 05:27:05 PM »
*dramatic sigh* I was hoping for a new years gift of news on this thread..... oh well, back to waiting.
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Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13867 on: January 01, 2015, 08:16:34 PM »
Quote
I guess I was one of those "nerf-validity" posters depending on the specific nerf in question.  Over the years I was in favor of multiple nerfs that the CoH devs implemented.  Of numerous buffs as well, but I'm more curious about the perception that agreeing with any nerf was seemingly bad.

Perhaps it was the perception - rightly or wrongly - that all people who wanted something nerfed had to do was, even mention it on the forums. *POOF!* insta-nerf! Meanwhile there were bugs in game that took years, if ever to fix. I recall the scientists that you had to escort during the first? mission of the LRSF. Those scientists were borked for what felt like years, ruining many LRSF attempts. We waited and waited.... begged and pleaded, cursed and summoned GMs in game - finally they got fixed, despite +dozens of players pleading for help. So there was the perception that only things that would hurt the playerbase got put on the fast track. If it was a bug, eh, well...... *shrug*

Im not saying this is actually how things were done, but there were times when it sure felt like it.

Second is the deadly issue of nerfing things players PAID FOR. This really riles people up, as CO is now figuring out.

Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13868 on: January 01, 2015, 08:20:44 PM »
Quote
Noy: Npc nerfs to name a few:
Most npcs had -travel power debuffs that would shut off your superspeed or flight - Those of you that grinded costume pieces in Monster Island (CO's monster island) probably remember this annoying npc feature.

WHAT.

THE.

EFF.

I would have quit the game over NPCs that could shut off my travel powers!

Eoraptor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13869 on: January 01, 2015, 08:30:46 PM »
to be fair, CoH had a few baddies who could knock out out of the sky as you passed, but they were always purple level baddies you should have known better than to cross near anyways. (hollows anyone?) not just any near-level NPC who looked cross-wise at ya
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LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13870 on: January 01, 2015, 09:03:19 PM »
WHAT.

THE.

EFF.

I would have quit the game over NPCs that could shut off my travel powers!

To be fair, it was only a problem if you took anything other than flight or teleport, and enemies had a very, very hard time killing you in those days if you took regeneration and recovery.  But then back then regeneration was truely the only passive worth taking, at all.  LR was nearly useless due to the day one nerfs, PFF instantly broke because it had no resistances and blocking did nothing to help it plus it required taking superstats that were "conflictive" with each other, ensuring you couldn't maximize it's usefulness, and defiance was also somewhat weak.  Offensive passives also increased damage very, very minimally.  So EVERYONE took regeneration because it was the only good passive then and enemies couldn't hurt a regen player much.

CO had improved then but now I feel it's been going backwards again, though it was going backwards for a long time in some category or another to anyhow.

Edit: Since I mentioned the PFF problem, I'll explain it a bit better.  Basically, the stats were only affected by very specific slots of gear.  Recovery, strength and dexterity were exclusively improved in the offense slot.  Constitution and presence improved exclusively in the defense slot.  While Ego, endurance and intelligence were only improved by the utility slots.  Each peice of primary gear could only generally improve one stat effectively, with utility having a very, very tiny impact on one or two stats but in a very, very small amount.

.....You heard that right.  Now, because PFF's recharge was scaled by ego, and it's maximum capacity was scaledy by endurance, this meant you either improved it's recovery which was abysmally slow even with high ego or it's maximum capacity which scaled only with endurance.  And because it would always automatically take 100% damage, regardless of resists or blocking or dodging, it broke very very fast and generally never got back up to capacity.  So it was entirely useless.

This was also a problem for other passives to.  Defiance was only somewhat viable as it only used one superstat, while regeneration was the other.  Lightning reflexes likewise just didn't provide any protection as every enemy had "snappy" attacks of which lightning reflexes had a very, very severe penalty against(generally a half-second attack only faced half your dodge rating, a .25 second attack only a quarter your dodge rating.  Most mob attacks were .5 and .25 second attacks).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 09:11:11 PM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13871 on: January 01, 2015, 09:28:40 PM »
WHAT.

THE.

EFF.

I would have quit the game over NPCs that could shut off my travel powers!

Knights of Artemis.

rebel 1812

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13872 on: January 01, 2015, 10:01:50 PM »
Perhaps it was the perception - rightly or wrongly - that all people who wanted something nerfed had to do was, even mention it on the forums. *POOF!* insta-nerf! Meanwhile there were bugs in game that took years, if ever to fix. I recall the scientists that you had to escort during the first? mission of the LRSF. Those scientists were borked for what felt like years, ruining many LRSF attempts. We waited and waited.... begged and pleaded, cursed and summoned GMs in game - finally they got fixed, despite +dozens of players pleading for help. So there was the perception that only things that would hurt the playerbase got put on the fast track. If it was a bug, eh, well...... *shrug*

Im not saying this is actually how things were done, but there were times when it sure felt like it.

Second is the deadly issue of nerfing things players PAID FOR. This really riles people up, as CO is now figuring out.

Yeah there are still plenty of bugs in missions that have been there for years.  The prison riot mission at about level 14 in west side.  Sometimes the alien will mess it up.  Dr. Destroyer's factory can mess up during the part where you add robot pieces into the machine.  Some of the nemesis missions will mess up too.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13873 on: January 01, 2015, 10:22:36 PM »
Knights of Artemis.

You mean Knives of Artemis, even then they couldn't counter teleport.  They were just a little annoying.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13874 on: January 01, 2015, 10:38:00 PM »
You mean Knives of Artemis, even then they couldn't counter teleport.  They were just a little annoying.
.. I hate to say this, but I think I miss those many overlapping fields of caltrops. :(

Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13875 on: January 01, 2015, 11:30:58 PM »
Knights of Artemis.
CO had critters that could literally turn off - as in 'detoggle' - travel powers. Meaning you have to wait for them to recharge (granted, only a second or so) and then turn them back on. But if you were just trying to run past and all of a sudden you're not running, but making a leisurely stroll, past that critter that can turn you into a smear on the pavement, well, you would probably be a smear on the pavement quite shortly.

Knives of Artemis had ground-targeted (meaning avoidable) temporary jump and speed debuffs. Nine times out of ten, you were already fighting them anyway so you didn't need to keep going. Not the same thing. Nothing in the game, no enemy or enemy's effect, turned off travel powers. At most, they suppressed them until the end of an effect, then it went instantly back to being full power/speed.

(Disregarding travel power suppression from a hero/villain firing one of their own powers; in any case, that was also only a temporary thing and after suppression, you're back at full power again.)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 11:36:00 PM by Aggelakis »
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Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13876 on: January 01, 2015, 11:32:42 PM »
Knights of Artemis.

They rarely bothered me, since I only ran Knives mishes on teams ;) Hover helped mitigate caltrops nicely as well; all of my squishies Hovered.


umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13877 on: January 02, 2015, 12:57:11 AM »
You mean that's NOT how the /SR powerset is supposed to work?

WHY WASN'T I TOLD THIS??!!

 ;D

You're killing me CC :)

Its weird that I consider that claws/SR from the early days to be somewhat of a CoH rite of passage, a trial by fire.  SR was *so* bad early on.  Before stamina came online there were times I just turned the SR toggles off to conserve end, the better defense being a strong offense, just kill the spawns asap.  And oh my goodness, teaming... +2 bosses just walked over him like he wasn't there.

But then Inventions landed and SR experienced a sea change.  When we were all still feeling our way around the new IOs I very quickly discovered the joy of soft capping and massive recharge bonuses.  That claws/SR that once seemed unplayable became close unstoppable.  Oh, we found plenty of other builds to use and abuse the Inventions system with over time, capping SR became something trivial, but darnit it got there first and it was a thing of beauty.

AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13878 on: January 02, 2015, 03:03:14 AM »

But then Inventions landed and SR experienced a sea change. 

It was a great feeling, to be able to take just about any old powerset and trick it out to really perform. Not that you had to, but that you could. And in later issues, turn up the heat on mission difficulty to match.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #13879 on: January 02, 2015, 03:35:49 AM »
.. I hate to say this, but I think I miss those many overlapping fields of caltrops. :(

Thats what I liked about city of heroes, every group had a nuance that made it at least "interesting", whether you liked it or not, the groups had things to separate them from others.  CO just never had that, it just had a few groups with a -travel power that was very annoying since it'd turn your power off and it was auto hit, even though the attack did only like 10-100 damage out of the usually 4000-7000k health(and often the manimals did only like, 30-40 damage second?  yeah, that pitiful).  And knives of artemis couldn't nail you if you were moving super fast anyhow, the CO mobs that couldn't even kill you could still knock you down, just making them a neusance.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.