Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 5187978 times)

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2014, 11:22:38 PM »
Iron wolf i Pm'd you some things that may be useful. I'm not sure if it sent though, sent it through my phone which is playing up at the moment

Didn't come through, Alphajaybo!

Hmmm, it might be time to buy the folks at Motiga dinner..........

alphajaybo

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2014, 08:15:31 AM »
Ok. Basically i think that we should include cases where a game is still live but essentially dead. For instance Dark Age Of Camelot (Daoc for short) is still live buts its, live servers are essentially dead. However with the help of various private servers being up people still play it (through the use of a private server/emulator) again just a thought. IM sure plenty of other games, in the same boat as Daoc and even CoH. IM pretty sure other games have been brought back from the dead too.
Daoc CoH and WoW

Drauger9

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2014, 09:22:05 AM »
Thank you... after the stressful day I've had, this was heart warming and epic on a new scale.

The response was so uplifting for me, to know that not only Chris Chung tried to find a buyer for the studio but also early pledged to City of Titans. The longer the game is shut down the more I'm convinced this was more than just a game... Maybe... the more we reach out to former employees, devs ect.. If we continue to get responses like this. We can include them into the letter being sent about bringing the game back. So NCSoft can literally see how much of an impact, the game and the community has had on the gaming community in general?

I'm going to keep an eye on his new studio, he seems like a really good man.

Drauger9

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2014, 10:44:09 AM »
Decided to brush up on my search-fu....

First, it seems some game companies are bringing old games back (NCSoft included)

1. CJ Games Global Revives Prius Online: Arcane Saga

http://www.mmogreport.com/news/123-archived/arcane-saga/757-cj-games-global-revives-mmorpg-prius-online-arcane-saga-beta-starts-this-may

2. Ignited Games Revives Dark Eden
http://www.mmogreport.com/news/123-archived/arcane-saga/757-cj-games-global-revives-mmorpg-prius-online-arcane-saga-beta-starts-this-may

3. NCSoft revives Black Metal: Alternative (there's a pop up window from this link that I can't get rid of, I had to manually scroll the page up and down to read around the pop up)

http://n4g.com/news/1458284/metal-black-alternative-ncsoft-revives-game-for-2014-beta-phase

Then there are the community efforts, I couldn't find much on players getting games from companies. But I did find a few on player made emulators. Maybe the information from some of these link would be useful for here or for others who may see these ;).

1. Coming Home Again (this is more of a general article about reviving dead MMOs)
http://www.hyper.com.au/2013/04/going-home-again-reviving-a-dead-mmo/

2. Independent developers work to revive toontown.
http://www.technologytell.com/gaming/122263/rewriting-toontown/

3. Reviving GodsWar. (this is the most interesting one for me, the player has some videos posted were he explains some of the things he did and also give credit to people who's helped him)

http://forum.ragezone.com/f856/reviving-godswar-gw-igg-private-651778/index2.html

When I have more time, I'll try to find more links, for developers who have released games to players ect..

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2014, 11:36:32 AM »
I didn't have any inside information on Chris. What I did was look at the NC Interactive executives and see what they did and where they went.

Chris had a history of gaming. He wasn't in it for the money alone from researching his past and present. I took a chance and you saw his response. I think he wants the game back as badly as we do.

It was not an open door but neither was it a closed one - it was another ally gained. Now more research on the current executives to try and figure out who might be friendly to a gamer and a community who won't say die.

Drauger9

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2014, 11:40:02 AM »
Good luck to you Ironwolf.

Though it may sound strange, the reason why I came back to titans network was I got a good feeling about CoH right before I came back. So I decided to see if anything new had happened and I've stayed ever since cause I still believe my gut's right. :P

My search-fu isn't master level but it's good enough. If you need any help researching something let me know and I'll do what I can. :)

Azrael

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2014, 12:37:17 PM »
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 01:03:45 PM by Azrael »

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2014, 01:02:59 PM »
"To become the enemy" means to think yourself in the enemy's position. In the world people tend to think of a robber trapped in a house as a fortified enemy. However, if we think of "becoming the enemy", we feel that the whole world is against us and that there is no escape. He who is shut inside is a pheasant. He who enters to arrest is a hawk. You must appreciate this.

In large-scale strategy, people are always under the impression that the enemy is strong, and so tend to become cautious. But if you have good soldiers, and if you understand the principles of strategy, and if you know how to beat the enemy, there is nothing to worry about.

Miyamoto Musashi


I tried to step back and look at what NCSoft and Nexon were doing and to see logic in their actions. We have been feeling every hand is against us at NCSoft and this I believe is blatently untrue. They made business decisions based on their best efforts and they affected us. I decided not to be the pheasant and to take the role of the hawk.

We are the audience and those they wish to persuade to buy their goods. We need not be cautious but also there is a timing for all things and now over a year is past and the IP languishes on a shelf somewhere on a packet of CD's or on a tape somewhere. There is value in some of the goods we want to be sure - the engine most notably. The game itself in honest evaluation is less valuable long term and so possibly we have a wedge.

If we can turn the company into an ally and make this into an idea that THEY can claim as THEIRS - it becomes far more possible. Old software dies everyday and yet what if we can find a way for them to retain the rights and yet allow progression of the IP, for no actual cost to themselves? We could make the engine and game even more valuable possibly.

Azrael

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2014, 01:11:45 PM »
Ironwolf,

Your reasoning is sound.



For me, it's a simple direct question.

NC Soft,

What would it take to resurrect the CoH game?



ie.  is there any way the 100k strong CoH community and company can come together to make the game live again like the fans did with EA.  If they told us the cost, practical running of the game and the PR safety net they require then at least we know what their concerns are and how to deal with them. 


In practice it may be less simple.  But I'd like to know NC's Soft opinions on a franchise that has less value now it's on a shelf somewhere.  I suspect something like your proposal with all the brass tacks nailed down, THINKING FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, would carry more weight as you're considering their position.  It might get their attention.  We know they talked to eg. Brian and Co. re: buying it.  Getting close to the people who 'almost' did the deal and even reviving the deal with key players might get NC's attention.  A logical path to explore.  Whatever the stumbling block before was, I don't know.

But I don't recall it ever being outlined.  I'm not even sure Matt Miller knows from what I've read.

Was it too little cash?
Was it assurances about the running of the game?  i.e. PR.
Was it over letting go of the engine?
Was the deal for the IP, Engine and full rights but NC wanted to keep the engine?  (Did the potential buyers not 'give' over the issue of owning the engine?)
Was it over assurances that the company had the weight of established industry players to run the game properly?

That information would be useful to know.

If NC Soft are willing to sell the 'game/IP' and license the engine there is the hint that the deal fell through because the engine ownership wasn't part of the deal?  Adding to fears that the game wouldn't be in 'safe' hands?  That's the impression I get.


That being the case.  It's up to a new bid to assure NC Soft that the community/small start up CAN run it's IP and don't seek outright ownership of the engine...just the right to use the IP/Game...and develop it via the community.

I can see here it's about reducing the risk of losing an engine that somebody else might make money out of.  ...and bad PR from a 'company' or 'community' who might not know what they're doing may be concerns as well.

Hopefully City of Titans and H&V will prove compelling evidence that the community does indeed know what it's doing.  If there is success for them...it may also add weight to the case for NC Soft to revive Coh.


I think licensing CoH with them retaining the rights to the engine has more likelihood of success.


Just getting NC Soft to talk and have something other than a one way dialogue would be a great start.

Azrael.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 01:25:24 PM by Azrael »

Cobra Man

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2014, 01:53:17 PM »
I will give you the facts as I get them,  filtered to protect sources.

A company did offer to buy the IP and NCSoft was willing to sell it for very little. However they wanted to keep the game engine rights. The company decided the IP without the engine wasn't what they wanted.

So to my point, if we offer to run the game with minimal costs, letting them retain all rights it would be worth more to a potential buyer. Why buy a dead game if you could buy a working one?

I'd like to thank you for your efforts here Ironwolf.

Reading through this thread it's clear that a great deal hinges on the above information that you posted earlier in the thread, namely that NCsoft were willing to sell for very little - and that the deal only fell apart because of the game engine issue.

Where is that information coming from? It appears to be totally at odds with what we have been told.

Do you have a source or link so that this information can be verified?

 

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2014, 02:08:06 PM »
Some of the information I have been given was under the understanding that some details can't be released.

I have tried to discuss it in generalities and it helped that Chris Chung was happy to speak about the deal as I couldn't. All I can say is it wasn't all NCSsoft's fault there were some hard feelings that bled into the negotiations.

I truly don't know the tipping point that stopped the deal. I plan to keep digging and to keep working on the pitch back to NCsoft. I am not familiar with business plans being a mere system admin but perhaps one of our folks could take the plan so far and spin it into something usable?

« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 02:38:14 PM by Ironwolf »

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2014, 03:39:28 PM »
It sounds like a lot of the pro-CoH people, like Chris Chung, ended up leaving or getting replaced, much before the closure. It obviously wasn't malicious or anything, but when the time came to consider CoH, it would've been more of a business decision rather than emotional for the powers that be.

As far as resurrecting dead games, look at what Namco did with ShiftyLook. They took a bunch of old 80s games, turned them into comics, and then made new games. So it's possible that NCSoft is looking at something like that (hopefully not 20 years from now). And even if they're not, something like that could be approached first - release some CoH comics, or something, get them popular, then bring around CoH 2.
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Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2014, 04:03:15 PM »
I have found a contact at Nexon America and will try to email him. I am going to have to pay for a linkedIn account and I can't access my personal email at work!

I have modified my email to Mr. Chung to the new contact and even if he can't action the issue he may provide valuable feedback.

Azrael

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2014, 04:21:03 PM »
Some of the information I have been given was under the understanding that some details can't be released.

I have tried to discuss it in generalities and it helped that Chris Chung was happy to speak about the deal as I couldn't. All I can say is it wasn't all NCSsoft's fault there were some hard feelings that bled into the negotiations.

I truly don't know the tipping point that stopped the deal. I plan to keep digging and to keep working on the pitch back to NCsoft. I am not familiar with business plans being a mere system admin but perhaps one of our folks could take the plan so far and spin it into something usable?

*nods.

Quote
I have found a contact at Nexon America and will try to email him. I am going to have to pay for a linkedIn account and I can't access my personal email at work!

I have modified my email to Mr. Chung to the new contact and even if he can't action the issue he may provide valuable feedback.

Keep going, Ironwolf.  With answers and greater transparency by involving the key people we can access the keys to solving this.


There's something a little odd about the collapse of the potential deal at the time.  Namely, the specifics.  i.e..  Why did the deal break down?  What were the 'deal breakers' from both sides point of view?

Failure to reach an agreement is a two way street.  As you say, it wasn't all NC Soft's fault.  Sounds like owning the game engine might have been the deal breaker.  Add in the whiff of bad feeling 'bleeding' into the negotiations and it adds another piece to the puzzle.

Actually getting to the bottom on why(!) the deal fell through on both sides are a couple of essential pieces of understanding why CoH isn't here today.  And it provides answers on how to allay NC Soft's concerns commercially, technologically and from a PR standpoint.

Azrael.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2014, 05:11:56 PM »
If I'm understanding this right, it sounds like NCSoft is willing to let go of the IP for a relatively low amount of money, but the IP is not the game.  Anyone who bought the IP would get the rights to the setting and the characters (meaning the NPCs like Statesman), but not to any of the actual code, and they wouldn't be able to bring the game back (because NCSoft would still have the rights for the client and server code).

It occurs to me that maybe they're not even allowed to sell the engine, as part of their agreement with Cryptic.  Again, if I'm understanding it right, NCSoft doesn't actually own the game's engine, they just have a perpetual license to use it.  If that's the case, that may have been a dealbreaker that neither side could have helped.

So I think what we'd want is to license the IP and game (including the server code, the engine, and everything else needed to bring the game back as it was), since they may be outright unable to sell the nuts and bolts of the game itself.

Maybe firing off a question to someone at Cryptic about the status of the CoH engine license in regards to a transfer of ownership of said license wouldn't be a bad idea.

Cobra Man

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2014, 06:08:59 PM »
Some of the information I have been given was under the understanding that some details can't be released.




That's a real pity.

It's going to make a lot of people very cynical about your source (not you) at a time when transparency is desperately needed.

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2014, 06:22:44 PM »
You have to understand a lot of stuff happens in the business world under NDA's.

Privacy Act and other issues really could open us up to a lawsuit that we would rather not deal with. I am used to it as a sys admin as I have to sign a document every year and take a class that covers the Privacy act and ethics.

Sorry if it isn't apparent but many items may fall under either of these Privacy Act/NDA.

I will give you all as much information as I get and try to be clear and concise. Anything else is due to them either saying don't talk about this please or any privacy issues. I do have another contact now and if they reply will post the email the same as I did for Chris Chung. I personally will only reserve that information as I said above.

My private email I will provide if requested. A few even have my work email that are trying to help with research and stuff - that way I can do things during quiet periods.

Cobra Man

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2014, 06:53:12 PM »
Fair enough.

I'll keep track of this and keep my fingers crossed.

I'm not holding my breath though  ;)

MWRuger

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2014, 07:56:04 PM »
Ironwulf,

I think you know I have trust issues and enmity with NCSoft. That said, I would happily put all that aside to do anything I can to help with this. If NCSoft were even willing to consider discussing it as an option, I would be inclined to have more faith in their products.

Further, if we can make this happen as a community I will gladly subscribe to a NCSoft game. I might not ever play it, but I would gladly subscribe to show my appreciation to NCSoft for working with the community to restore the City.

I can also offer my technical support services. I have done general software, driver, hardware installation support at a few different call centers. I have a fair amount of SQL/Database experience so I can offer that. I also have a legal copy of CS6 and ten years of graphic design experience and deadline production experience. I'm also a night owl and would gladly stand a 10 PM to 2 AM shift as a GM if needed.

I have always said that I just want to play City of Heroes again before I die. If you or anyone else can make that happen, I will owe  debt that I cannot ever discharge. But that won't stop me from trying.

In any event, thanks for hope and good luck
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2014, 08:41:11 PM »
Please don't think I am anything but happy to have all of you still out there in the community.

You have every right to question me. I questioned the Valiance guys when they first came in here and was too harsh. We have been disappointed before and this may also disappoint us, but I want US to try.

I am starting this merely because I had talked to a few of the folks in the original group, nothing more and got handed the stuff by default. Then I said what do I do now?????? I don't pretend to be a genius or anything more than a damn good troubleshooter for tech problems.

So what I did was take the same step back I do when I am working, I said to myself cover the who, what, when, where, how and why.
Who could help us?
What do we want?
When is the best time to make the effort?
Where is game now?
How can we open dialog?
Why can't we find a way to do that?

I doubt myself enough on this trust me, but if not me who? I have studied the martial arts for 38 years now and so I applied my training to this and this stuck out in my mind immediately:

"Even a thousand-mile road is walked one step at a time. It is the duty of a warrior to study this art without hurry and practice it over the years. Try to defeat today what you were yesterday, defeat lesser men tomorrow, and stronger men the day after. "

Miyamoto Musashi 1580.

I can't make the game start today, nor tomorrow - but can I make a path for it to come back? Can I get NCSoft or Nexon to desire to bring it back? Can I get them to look at it again in a new light? I have fought and commanded in battles in the SCA with nearly 2000 men a side and you always look for the heart of the struggle to find the way to win.

"To renew" applies when we are fighting with the enemy, and an entangled spirit arises where there is no possible resolution. We must abandon our efforts, think of the situation in a fresh spirit then win in the new rhythm. To renew, when we are deadlocked with the enemy, means that without changing our circumstance we change our spirit and win through a different technique.

It is necessary to consider how "to renew" also applies in large-scale strategy. Research this diligently."

So I picked up the torch but I didn't light it and others carried it before me and hopefully will after me. I invite everyone to help keep it lit.