New efforts!

[MM3squints]

That's the theory, here's the reality.

I would refresh my Shivan Shards and Nukes at around 3am, when those zones were mostly deserted, after hiding myself from searches and loading up on every bit of stealth I could scrounge up.  If I was unlucky, some trash-spewing jerks would be out to grief me, in which case I'd promptly abandon the zone and try again later.

Those of us who don't want to PVP, don't want to PVP.  Putting those goodies in PVP zones doesn't make us "earn" them, it just makes us have to potentially deal with griefer jerks to get them, and typically try to only be in those zones when said griefer jerks likely weren't there so we wouldn't be harassed.

Speaking from a PvPer it's not a theory, it's what I did. Sorry for not being clear about it (put me in a box because I didn't address the people who talk smack /e teabag after killing, etc) What I said is just one aspect of PvPers. There are those that need to show their e-peen and that is expected. Me personally I never talked crapped in zones and always followed up anyone who wanted to talk smack with "ok let's go to arena" They don't respond or keeping running their mouth, I just allow them to look dumb in broadcast.  Not condoning what they did or what their reasons was for attacking, but it is a pvp zone, so fair game. I don't care if in the future they put them in another zone that is not pvp, that's up to whoever will do that, but in its current state, again fair game

Edit: Interesting enough (or Ironically depends on how your experience with PvP was) League PvP scene was very cordial and professional. I guess its because people are within their peers and like mind and pretty much self policing within the community.

[Dr. Bad Guy]

I am a little concerned with all the attention this negotiation is getting.

What negotiations? I thought we were talking about ED. And waffles. And pancakes. And Bronies

[KennonGL]

Four and half years of CoH taught me to hate PVPers with the flaming passion of a thousand suns.

Heh, 6 months of Ultima Online [during the first 6 months of it being live] taught me to hate PVP with a flaming passion...

Things actually weren't too bad during it's beta, but shortly after that it got really annoying .....

Don't really want to drag the thread into another PVP/PVE do/don't fight though.  Me personally, I did pretty much exactly
what JanessaVR did.  Tried to only enter the zones during empty hours.  I actually disabled all chat when entering the zones
just to make it easier to ignore the trash talk.  If I ever encountered anyone, I simply stopped moving and stood there unresponsive.
Eventually they either realized that I had no intention of fighting and left me alone or they ganked me and I simply respawned and started over.
Upon 2nd ganking, I just left the zone for another time.

I never blame anyone for attacking me while I'm in a PVP zone, I simply choose not to participate and avoid PVP wherever possible.

Hero vs Villain PVP I understood (ie faction fighting), but I never really did understand the whole "free-for-all" idea though. 
Why would heroes be ganking other heroes? 

[Dr. Bad Guy]

What negotiations? I thought we were talking about ED. And waffles. And pancakes. And Bronies

And whatever Irish_Girl posts. ;D

[MM3squints]

Hero vs Villain PVP I understood (ie faction fighting), but I never really did understand the whole "free-for-all" idea though. 
Why would heroes be ganking other heroes?

They want the mutant child messiah

[FloatingFatMan]

They want the mutant child messiah

He's NOT the messiah! He's a very naughty boy!

[downix]

Heh, 6 months of Ultima Online [during the first 6 months of it being live] taught me to hate PVP with a flaming passion...

Things actually weren't too bad during it's beta, but shortly after that it got really annoying .....

Don't really want to drag the thread into another PVP/PVE do/don't fight though.  Me personally, I did pretty much exactly
what JanessaVR did.  Tried to only enter the zones during empty hours.  I actually disabled all chat when entering the zones
just to make it easier to ignore the trash talk.  If I ever encountered anyone, I simply stopped moving and stood there unresponsive.
Eventually they either realized that I had no intention of fighting and left me alone or they ganked me and I simply respawned and started over.
Upon 2nd ganking, I just left the zone for another time.

I never blame anyone for attacking me while I'm in a PVP zone, I simply choose not to participate and avoid PVP wherever possible.

Hero vs Villain PVP I understood (ie faction fighting), but I never really did understand the whole "free-for-all" idea though. 
Why would heroes be ganking other heroes?

I had dedicated PvP zone builds.

Someone tries to gank, they wind up finding out how much I hate PvP'ers.

[MM3squints]

He's NOT the messiah! He's a very naughty boy!

She xD It was the X-Men Vs Avengers

[JanessaVR]

Speaking from a PvPer it's not a theory, it's what I did. Sorry for not being clear about it (put me in a box because I didn't address the people who talk smack /e teabag after killing, etc) What I said is just one aspect of PvPers. There are those that need to show their e-peen and that is expected. Me personally I never talked crapped in zones and always followed up anyone who wanted to talk smack with "ok let's go to arena" They don't respond or keeping running their mouth, I just allow them to look dumb in broadcast.  Not condoning what they did or what their reasons was for attacking, but it is a pvp zone, so fair game. I don't care if in the future they put them in another zone that is not pvp, that's up to whoever will do that, but in its current state, again fair game

Edit: Interesting enough (or Ironically depends on how your experience with PvP was) League PvP scene was very cordial and professional. I guess its because people are within their peers and like mind and pretty much self policing within the community.

What I'm saying is, it didn't make us "earn" them, it inconvenienced us by making us access Bloody Bay or Warburg at odd/late hours to slip around the griefers so we wouldn't be harassed by them.  It didn't teach us to love PVP, it taught us to avoid PVP zones like the plague unless necessary or when the zones were hopefully deserted (and to play on servers like Virtue, with a low PVP population anyway).  This is what I mean when I say the theory ("let's lure the unsuspecting PVE players into PVP zones to be fodder for the PVPers, and everyone will love it!") did not match the reality ("bloody hell, I need some nukes, now I have to stay up till like 2am to get some for the mish tomorrow, hopefully the server will be pretty much dead by then").

[FloatingFatMan]

She xD It was the X-Men Vs Avengers

Never miss the chance for a Monty Python joke! :p

[MWRuger]

Except the thing is...well, the things are...first, this isn't "In Living Color", and (I assume) FFM isn't Jim Carrey. (If I'm wrong here, I'd just like to say that I really liked 'Liar Liar'!) "Somebody else said something else about two decades ago that could have offended someone entirely different altogether" doesn't really make much of a difference to things being said here and now by other people to people who may be members of this community and not necessarily feel welcome or comfortable due to the actions of another poster.

And second, saying "cultivate a thicker skin" is not a useful response, especially from a moderator. It's basically a way of saying, "Calling people out on their bad behavior and getting them to stop is hard work. Telling you to suck it up and take it is easy. I'm just going to tell you to suck it up and take it." It doesn't work for anyone except for the people whose lives are made easier by not having to pay attention to how it feels to be the target of insults.

And again, I'm trying very very very hard not to make it sound like I'm more offended than I am. Again, FFM's comment was relatively mild. But I would really like people to see that these kinds of things have a cumulative impact--there was an eleven year old boy who was an MLP fan who attempted suicide because the school bullies wouldn't stop trying to "confiscate his mancard", and he didn't know how to make it stop. And while I'm not saying this is anything like as bad as that, and I'm not saying you should take action as a moderator, I am kind of saying, "Hey, before you say something like that, maybe you could perhaps think about how it might sound to someone else? And whether it's worth it for that joke?" I don't think this is a crazy idea, and I'm a little surprised that it's getting this much pushback.

I didn't really care one way or the other about this MLP thing until the final days of the city where every page of the shutdown thread was littered with MLP crap. It was annoying as hell. So thank whoever that was for my distaste for the herd

This isn't like someone who is gay or black being traumatized. They don't have a choice about who they are. Personally, I certainly don't have a problem with an 11 year kid being a fan. Are you an 11 year old boy? If you a 30+ year old man it's a little odd.

When I wore my boy scout uniform to school in the mid 70's I ate a heap of shit for it. That was my choice.  The Broherd certainly is making a choice. To those of us on the outside it seems like you have got to be kidding about this My Little Pony thing.

When you call yourself "The Herd" or get tattoos of your favorite pony on your arm and run around saying things like "Friendship is Magic" what do you expect? No one is saying you can't do whatever you want but you can't stop people from thinking it's weird (but whatever).

Do what you like, by all means, but you cannot possibly be surprised when people look askance. There is a difference between tolerance and joyful acceptance.

[Acanous]

I was the subject of a trolling thread on Something Awful after I broke up with my ex and I have a triple amputee suing me because he is convinced I am a master Facebook troll who runs over 40 fake accounts. Hard to top that.

Thanks for the update! I imagine NC watching the triple amputee thing like "now let's see how he deals with this!"

[LaughingAlex]

What I'm saying is, it didn't make us "earn" them, it inconvenienced us by making us access Bloody Bay or Warburg at odd/late hours to slip around the griefers so we wouldn't be harassed by them.  It didn't teach us to love PVP, it taught us to avoid PVP zones like the plague unless necessary or when the zones were hopefully deserted (and to play on servers like Virtue, with a low PVP population anyway).  This is what I mean when I say the theory ("let's lure the unsuspecting PVE players into PVP zones to be fodder for the PVPers, and everyone will love it!") did not match the reality ("bloody hell, I need some nukes, now I have to stay up till like 2am to get some for the mish tomorrow, hopefully the server will be pretty much dead by then").

I feel ya there.  I was among those who did that, to.  I moved through the zones as fast as possible at the odd and late hours because I was avoiding everyone.

Problem with pvp is you have to really make it so it's only done when people really want to do it(then it's actually funnest).  Your best bet is not to really offer any reward for it, in reality.  If someone is only pvping for the rewards, they are not true pvpers.  They are people who probably shouldn't be pvping in the first place(even more-so the game creates bad morale issues for losers).  A bigger, harsher, reality of good pvp is that the only competitive pvp is the pvp that isn't pre-stacked in anyones favor at the beginning of the match.  The reason starcraft, starcraft 2, and fighting games are favored over mmorpgs is because no one is automatically going to win or lose based on the time and build.  It's 100% skill.  Or more 80% skill and 20% the character/race you play.

You cannot, EVER have a game where it's only 10-20% skill, 30-80% build and 40-100% time(learning irrelevent, meaning time was truely the sole determining factor, not skill learned.  Players can play a game for many many hours without learning how to be better at that game).  It must always be 100% skill and if build is involved, then it's more 75% skill and 25% build(which is more what you see in SC, SC2 and fighting games, at the very beginning you chose the race or character, thats the 25% build, as the characters/races are different, it's then down to preference ideally).

So naturally pvp in mmorpgs is always going to be rather unpopular most of the time for a reason.  True pvpers are those who truely know when a game is good for competition.  City of heroes did have depth, yes, but it wasn't the best pvp game.  The fact it had to try and use incentives to make/force people into pvp zones is actually evidence it wasn't good at it.  Not to mention the bad attitude you'd see of those who were only there to stop others from getting those rewards.

Edit: Made an adjustment for the first paragraph about pvp.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I never really was a big PvPer but on virtue I rarely ran into other people in Bloody Bay or Warburg when I went there.  Given I usually played late anyway but I almost never ran into PvPers.  Although asking for changes made to the PvP especially when it is many issues back and there is probably more to it then changing just PvP I would say any changes being made to the PvP zones would be very unlikely.

Heh, 6 months of Ultima Online [during the first 6 months of it being live] taught me to hate PVP with a flaming passion...

Things actually weren't too bad during it's beta, but shortly after that it got really annoying .....

Don't really want to drag the thread into another PVP/PVE do/don't fight though.  Me personally, I did pretty much exactly
what JanessaVR did.  Tried to only enter the zones during empty hours.  I actually disabled all chat when entering the zones
just to make it easier to ignore the trash talk.  If I ever encountered anyone, I simply stopped moving and stood there unresponsive.
Eventually they either realized that I had no intention of fighting and left me alone or they ganked me and I simply respawned and started over.
Upon 2nd ganking, I just left the zone for another time.

I never blame anyone for attacking me while I'm in a PVP zone, I simply choose not to participate and avoid PVP wherever possible.

Hero vs Villain PVP I understood (ie faction fighting), but I never really did understand the whole "free-for-all" idea though. 
Why would heroes be ganking other heroes?

Ultima Online PvP pre-trammel was just cruel, I was afraid to leave town.  Although once trammel came out it made the PKers even worse.  The birth of griefers!  I remember one of my characters became red after killing the NPC's you could escort to other towns.  And I got popped into fellucia(SP? The bad place)Buccaneers bay and was quickly greeted by my other red friends who proceeded to welcome me over, and over, and over again.  Long after stealing all my gear and loot.  And so I never played that character again.  So I guess long story short, I don't much care for PvP either.

[LaughingAlex]

If you wanted a good pvp feature.  You'd need to allow for pvp exclusive characters who cannot take part in any pve content at all, who start at the absolute max level with maxed incarnate powers(and only maxed incarnate powers, no tier 1-3 allowed) with all IO's unlocked and whatnot.  AKA what guild wars did.  Instant character build with no time investment.  Then you'd probably see competitions as time was eliminated properly and the fakers wouldn't be able to auto-win over someone who would be dismayed and found he wasted spent 3-4 months playing a char bad for pvp.

[MM3squints]

What I'm saying is, it didn't make us "earn" them, it inconvenienced us by making us access Bloody Bay or Warburg at odd/late hours to slip around the griefers so we wouldn't be harassed by them.  It didn't teach us to love PVP, it taught us to avoid PVP zones like the plague unless necessary or when the zones were hopefully deserted (and to play on servers like Virtue, with a low PVP population anyway).  This is what I mean when I say the theory ("let's lure the unsuspecting PVE players into PVP zones to be fodder for the PVPers, and everyone will love it!") did not match the reality ("bloody hell, I need some nukes, now I have to stay up till like 2am to get some for the mish tomorrow, hopefully the server will be pretty much dead by then").

To say it didn't teach you to pvp and willing to learn how to pvp are two different concepts. If you do in a zone and constantly die, you have three options. 1: Go late in night and get your rewards, which you find inconvenience 2: Go pound sand 3: actually find the reason why you are dying so much. Its how I learned because I go into pvp zones and get killed. Originally I was a badger and a pver, got tired of getting gank in pvp zones. So I observed what the common denominator all pvpers had that made them so effective.

I came to the realization movement speed, you attack faster to your target and you escape faster. What movement do you need? Super Speed and Super Jump. Why? Super jump give you the vertical while super speed is a secondary movement if you are -jumped. If you use fly and are adimiate about using fly, you are not learning nor do you want to learn. Anyone that uses fly in PvP is basically dead. Next is what kind of toons do they use? For damage they use Ice/EM, Fire/EM, Rad/Psi. Why? Ice/EM has decent damage and range, Fire/EM has a shorter range but more dmg, Rad/Psi had a debuff and Psi was highly unresisited and had the furthest range. What else did they bring? A Kin, sonic, emps. Why do you bring these? While you have your damage dealers (carries), you need your supports to make the carries effective.

Now puts you in a pickle and you think "ok, these are the standard "effective" PvP types (there are many more just giving some) and my main isn't one of those." You have two options, one create a pvp toon then learn the mechanics then transfer that knowledge to your main toon or just dismiss PvP in general saying it is evil. My main toon was a ice/rad I didn't make him a with SS/SJ in pvp. Why because I learned a new tactic (thinking out of the box) to tp foe my target in my ice slick with AA running and radiation emission, EF toggled on the target while stacking -rech and slow (biggest -rech was lingering and shiver) The target will try to attack me but the artic air will make them target jack and they will miss because of radiation emission. They use all their attacks and nothing is recharged due to the crazy -rech. They try moving out of the AA, but they are slowed not only from the ice slick, but all other slows. They try getting out of the AA ring I tp foe back them into the center and they can try getting out while I stack chilliban, ice block, jack whales on them, and anyone else wails on them.

The last statement about leading unsuspecting people to zones, they strait out tell you you will be attacked. The contact tells you will attacked. There are graphics signs telling you you will be attacked. I don't know where you are seeing some grand coverup not telling people they will get killed by other players in a Player Vs Player zone (they do spell it out too)

[LaughingAlex]

To say it didn't teach you to pvp and willing to learn how to pvp are two different concepts. If you do in a zone and constantly die, you have three options. 1: Go late in night and get your rewards, which you find inconvenience 2: Go pound sand 3: actually find the reason why you are dying so much. Its how I learned because I go into pvp zones and get killed. Originally I was a badger and a pver, got tired of getting gank in pvp zones. So I observed what the common denominator all pvpers had that made them so effective.

I came to the realization movement speed, you attack faster to your target and you escape faster. What movement do you need? Super Speed and Super Jump. Why? Super jump give you the vertical while super speed is a secondary movement if you are -jumped. If you use fly and are adimiate about using fly, you are not learning nor do you want to learn. Anyone that uses fly in PvP is basically dead. Next is what kind of toons do they use? For damage they use Ice/EM, Fire/EM, Rad/Psi. Why? Ice/EM has decent damage and range, Fire/EM has a shorter range but more dmg, Rad/Psi had a debuff and Psi was highly unresisited and had the furthest range. What else did they bring? A Kin, sonic, emps. Why do you bring these? While you have your damage dealers (carries), you need your supports to make the carries effective.

Now puts you in a pickle and you think "ok, these are the standard "effective" PvP types (there are many more just giving some) and my main isn't one of those." You have two options, one create a pvp toon then learn the mechanics then transfer that knowledge to your main toon or just dismiss PvP in general saying it is evil. My main toon was a ice/rad I didn't make him a with SS/SJ in pvp. Why because I learned a new tactic (thinking out of the box) to tp foe my target in my ice slick with AA running and radiation emission, EF toggled on the target while stacking -rech and slow (biggest -rech was lingering and shiver) The target will try to attack me but the artic air will make them target jack and they will miss because of radiation emission. They use all their attacks and nothing is recharged due to the crazy -rech. They try moving out of the AA, but they are slowed not only from the ice slick, but all other slows. They try getting out of the AA ring I tp foe back them into the center and they can try getting out while I stack chilliban, ice block, jack whales on them, and anyone else wails on them.

The last statement about leading unsuspecting people to zones, they strait out tell you you will be attacked. The contact tells you will attacked. There are graphics signs telling you you will be attacked. I don't know where you are seeing some grand coverup not telling people they will get killed by other players in a Player Vs Player zone (they do spell it out too)

This kind of shows something to me though.  There are parts that kind of say your being the stop having fun guy, in many ways, as your pointing out the absolute REQUIREMENTS for pvp that if you don't have, you near automatically lose.  The travel power issue definently falls into that category.  Flight was unviable compared to the super speed super jump combo that took up half of your powers guaranteed.  Especially with acrobatics also being a "requirement".  That killed the fun for a lot right there.  Certainly killed the mood for me.  Especially when I was trying to learn it and the stop having fun guys started throwing condescending remarks belittling my knowledge of the game when I actually knew the buff/debuff/cc mechanics better then they did(they thought for instance KNOCKBACK was time based, not magnitude based, total fail there).

Firstly, pvp doesn't help you pve better.  Really it doesn't all that much.  I know there are those who don't have any concept of hit and running, I'll tell you i'm not one of those.  I knew how to hit and run the mobs very well.  In fact I very, very rarely died, I was mercilessly efficient at taken even malta operatives and knives down when the above players were outright fearful of those same mobs.  I played a wide variety of archtypes even and having played multiple archtypes that also evolved my strategies.  This from just playing pve for crying out loud.

The luring pve players into zones is due to rewards that shouldn't have been exclusive to pvp in the first place.  Only true pvpers should be pvping one another, not those who'd only pvp for the reward.  If I wanted to pvp anyways I'd play an fps/rts/fighting game.

[Ironwolf]

And second, saying "cultivate a thicker skin" is not a useful response, especially from a moderator. It's basically a way of saying, "Calling people out on their bad behavior and getting them to stop is hard work. Telling you to suck it up and take it is easy. I'm just going to tell you to suck it up and take it." It doesn't work for anyone except for the people whose lives are made easier by not having to pay attention to how it feels to be the target of insults.

Reality time, everyone is subject to insults at some point and sometimes just because it amuses the one insulting you. Blacks get called names, fat people get called names, skinny people get called names, white people, gay people, bronies, goths, anime lovers, gamers, politicians, actors, musicians and everything and everyone in between.

The point is when you narrow your own perspective down to take every single thing said personally - you ignore that as a famous man once said - people live lives of quiet desperation. We all get called names. We offend often without meaning to and often in jest when especially the internet it is nearly impossible to read emotion. So if you on the internet beieve everyone is attacking you - you are going to be miserable.

The one group who seems to get it are - rednecks - they just laugh at themselves. I have relatives from lower Ohio in the mountains and they just revel in the jokes.

[ivanhedgehog]

Yeah guys. Trust me, everyone whos working on these efforts are doing their very best to make everything as amazing as possible.
If the opportunity to get the source code, and character database appears... attempts, I'm sure, will be made to get them.

you guys are really awesome...we know you are working to get things done and if we seem impatient,,its because we are..


and Ironwolf...gonna update page 1?;D ;D the number of views on that page is impressive...

[BadWolf]

Reality time, everyone is subject to insults at some point and sometimes just because it amuses the one insulting you. Blacks get called names, fat people get called names, skinny people get called names, white people, gay people, bronies, goths, anime lovers, gamers, politicians, actors, musicians and everything and everyone in between.

But that doesn't make it...um, what's that word, starts with an "R"...oh, yes. Right. :) I'm saying, "Hey! Let's try to be nicer to people! It makes everyone's day better, it's not hard, and it even makes people like you more!" Is it going to work on everybody? No. Are insults going to stop because of it? No. But I'm going to keep trying because it's the right thing to do and it'll definitely never get done if everyone just gives up. I'm honestly surprised and a little bit depressed that I have to explain this to you, of all people.