Holds and Roots and Stuff

[PSI-on]

I'm so confused by the terminology in this game sometimes. I came from CoX where a "hold" and a "Stun" and so on were different things. Yet I hear "hold" thrown around to describe so many different things. The wiki is even worse since the page about "holds" is about ALL crowd control powers and so I'm not sure if everything on that list is a hold or just the paralyzes, stuns, and sleeps.

Primarily, I'm working on an ice character build and I wanna boost his cages *which are roots, I honestly can't believe that there's no real freezing someone in a block of ice and the closest thing is ONE power with an advantage and it's not really the same thing* but most of the stuff, like Presence, say they boost holds, not roots. So is a hold a root or just the other stuff? Does Presence also boost root as a seperate thing without mentioning it? It says it boost Crowd Control resistance, so I can only assume if it doesn't use that term for boosting it's being very specific when it says "holds."

Thank you in advance for any help.

[Xev]

That page about Holds on the wiki is a redirect to a page for Crowd Control that includes info for holds.

Under Effects for Presence the wiki says Presence:
◾Increases the duration and health of all Crowd control effects

As I understand it holds are like pets that have health and have to have their hps beaten down in order for them to go away. It looks like Presence gives those pets (your ice cages) more health, making them harder to break out of, and a longer duration too.

Root is crowd control. So is a stun and a hold and a paralyze and confuse and whatever else they listed on the Crowd Control page.

A stun and hold and paralyze and sleep can be considered similar due to the mobs under their influence can't attack. However they are still crowd control and so is root.

Hope that helps!

You know, I thought ice cage was a hold until now.. I use them all the time and when the mobs are affected by them they seem to spend their whole time trying to get free and not attacking so I thought they were holds.

[PSI-on]

Near as I can tell, they are roots, but that's why I mean, seems like the word "hold" is used WAY too often when if should be "crowd Control." For instance the short info of Presence says it boost your "holds," given what you found on the wiki it should say "crowd Control" (and it did when it says crowd control resist so they could have said it for the boost too) to be ablsolutely clear. I've had the same issue with what's truly is a "paralyze" and what's not. Seems the maintains aren't, even if the in game power uses the work Paralyze, like Binding of Aratron.I tested it on the PTS and even though the power uses the word "paralyzes," it didn't trigger "Wither" on any target I used it on. 

That page about Holds on the wiki is a redirect to a page for Crowd Control that includes info for holds.

Under Effects for Presence the wiki says Presence:
◾Increases the duration and health of all Crowd control effects

As I understand it holds are like pets that have health and have to have their hps beaten down in order for them to go away. It looks like Presence gives those pets (your ice cages) more health, making them harder to break out of, and a longer duration too.

Root is crowd control. So is a stun and a hold and a paralyze and confuse and whatever else they listed on the Crowd Control page.

A stun and hold and paralyze and sleep can be considered similar due to the mobs under their influence can't attack. However they are still crowd control and so is root.

Hope that helps!

You know, I thought ice cage was a hold until now.. I use them all the time and when the mobs are affected by them they seem to spend their whole time trying to get free and not attacking so I thought they were holds.

[Xev]

Yeah the wiki says Ice Cages are roots and I'll be checking mine now but I believe it, just was a surprise.

The wiki *does* say for Presence, on the Presence page, under effects: ◾Increases the duration and health of all Crowd control effects - they just used the term 'holds' for some reason on the general description at the top of the same page.

Snare doesn't seem to be overly useful in CO but that's interesting to find it on the Crowd Control page. I would have considered it a debuff. I'm kinda surprised Placate is considered Crowd Control in the wiki list too. Self crowd control maybe..

In my mind, Paralyze and Sleep are both holds - when a mob is paralyzed or slept he is held and can't do anything. In CO, he can try to break free, which is one step up from being able to do nothing.

Roots I consider Immobilize. Which is like a Hold but the mob can still attack.

Stuns are in their own class and considered.. stuns. One thing about stuns is they are generally short duration and generally all or nothing but in CO they can have their duration reduced with a high CC resistance, apparently.

We all know Confuse.

All of these things control crowds differently but they are all still the same thing - Crowd Control.

I still say snare is closer to a debuff and placate seems so too. Crowd control, to me, is a group, not self only, thing, and it generally involves some kind of lockdown not just a (speed debuff) hinderance. But I guess there is no debuff resisting, sooo, there we go, voila, they are crowd control, a thing we can have resists for.

Overdrive is supposed to fire off whenever a maintain is held for half duration or more and Conflagration from the Fire power set is definitely a Maintain but it won't work with Overdrive. Maybe you are seeing a similar situation with "Wither" not triggering on BoA.

*shrug*

[PSI-on]

That's what I'm saying, they need to get their terms clear. Crowd Control for everything and only use "held" for Paralyzes, Sleeps, and Stuns, it makes a big difference in understanding, especially when little details and effects are involved and themselves, sometimes hyper specific.

As for Placate, it's not something you do to yourself, it's something that you do to the enemy that removes their ability to see you or even target you in some cases, let alone wiping threat.

Frankly all this made more sense in CoX, holds were holds, sleeps were sleeps, stuns were stuns, immobilizes were immobilizes, and so on. Every thing was clear and things worked better. Hell after working on test with ice powers I am simply floored there isn't even ONE "freeze a guy in a block of ice and stop him.....well...cold" power in the set, only different ways to put them in cages. I mean, Ice Blast in CoX, alone, had at least 2 powers that did that and two that created what we'd call "ice cages."

Yeah the wiki says Ice Cages are roots and I'll be checking mine now but I believe it, just was a surprise.

The wiki *does* say for Presence, on the Presence page, under effects: ◾Increases the duration and health of all Crowd control effects - they just used the term 'holds' for some reason on the general description at the top of the same page.

Snare doesn't seem to be overly useful in CO but that's interesting to find it on the Crowd Control page. I would have considered it a debuff. I'm kinda surprised Placate is considered Crowd Control in the wiki list too. Self crowd control maybe..

In my mind, Paralyze and Sleep are both holds - when a mob is paralyzed or slept he is held and can't do anything. In CO, he can try to break free, which is one step up from being able to do nothing.

Roots I consider Immobilize. Which is like a Hold but the mob can still attack.

Stuns are in their own class and considered.. stuns. One thing about stuns is they are generally short duration and generally all or nothing but in CO they can have their duration reduced with a high CC resistance, apparently.

We all know Confuse.

All of these things control crowds differently but they are all still the same thing - Crowd Control.

I still say snare is closer to a debuff and placate seems so too. Crowd control, to me, is a group, not self only, thing, and it generally involves some kind of lockdown not just a (speed debuff) hinderance. But I guess there is no debuff resisting, sooo, there we go, voila, they are crowd control, a thing we can have resists for.

Overdrive is supposed to fire off whenever a maintain is held for half duration or more and Conflagration from the Fire power set is definitely a Maintain but it won't work with Overdrive. Maybe you are seeing a similar situation with "Wither" not triggering on BoA.

*shrug*

[JaguarX]

That's what I'm saying, they need to get their terms clear. Crowd Control for everything and only use "held" for Paralyzes, Sleeps, and Stuns, it makes a big difference in understanding, especially when little details and effects are involved and themselves, sometimes hyper specific.

As for Placate, it's not something you do to yourself, it's something that you do to the enemy that removes their ability to see you or even target you in some cases, let alone wiping threat.

Frankly all this made more sense in CoX, holds were holds, sleeps were sleeps, stuns were stuns, immobilizes were immobilizes, and so on. Every thing was clear and things worked better. Hell after working on test with ice powers I am simply floored there isn't even ONE "freeze a guy in a block of ice and stop him.....well...cold" power in the set, only different ways to put them in cages. I mean, Ice Blast in CoX, alone, had at least 2 powers that did that and two that created what we'd call "ice cages."

Actually there is one power. The name escapes me now, but like most holds in the game it don't last too long because AI have fast thumbs on the Z button and damage weakens the hold.


That system has it's up and downs. UP, don't have to worry about being perma held and locked down to death. Downside, good luck locking down foes for any period of time that make much difference.

[PSI-on]

I've looked all through Ice and the closest I could get to "frozen solid in a block of ice" I could get was Ice Burst, but only after adding an advantage that added a paralyze to the original target, and I'm willing to be it's only "in a block of ice" cause the original power puts a ice pillar there but he's not literally stuck in it, like say Freeze Ray was in CoX, which is shocking to me. I would think the concept of freezing people inside ice would me fundamental to the concept of using ice powers at all.

Actually there is one power. The name escapes me now, but like most holds in the game it don't last too long because AI have fast thumbs on the Z button and damage weakens the hold.


That system has it's up and downs. UP, don't have to worry about being perma held and locked down to death. Downside, good luck locking down foes for any period of time that make much difference.

[Xev]

As to the original confusion I'd say that Root is Crowd Control and Presence should boost your Ice Cages.

The toon I have that has Ice Cages has a low Presence (<30) and his Ice Cages are pretty handy but I never gauged the durations. They seem to re-apply often when using Ice powers.

[PSI-on]

Thank you, now I just have to figure out what my Super Stats should be. I'm torn between ego (for damage), presence (for control), recovery (for energy issues *so far the build has lots*) and Dexterity (for crits to trigger cold snap in ice form).

As to the original confusion I'd say that Root is Crowd Control and Presence should boost your Ice Cages.

[Xev]

At first I was glad when they re-did some powers so that they didn't work off of 1 specific SS, but rather your SS total, because I thought it gave more freedom in toonbuilding.

But now I'm finding sometimes I want to boost 4 stats - which lowers my SS pool, which lowers the effectiveness of powers that boost based on the SS pool.

On the build I'm playing with now I have 3 ways to play it with just some minor & fairly cheap tweaks from the Powerhouse. 2 variations are tanks, 1 is dps, and 1 tank version uses different SS's but uses the same main 4 stats that I depend on in all variations, so, the gear stays the same, I just have to change a few powers and in 1 case, the SS's too (for ~30g).

So anyway.. Yeah.. SS choices can be tough.

Btw.. Cold Snap seems to not be so uber to me unless you have a specific use for it due to only a few not super exciting (to me, I'm maybe missing something) powers that use it. And, Cold Snap <> Ice Cages - Chill does. Juuust in case you were depending on Cold Snap for Ice Cages I thought I'd mention this.

[PSI-on]

Was interested in Cold Snap for the damage bonus as well as being one main point of Ice Form, also there are a few powers that get a boost off of me having Cold Snap. And yeah, it's though, I've look through all 4 and saw what I'd take if they were my main Stat, but nothing that jumps out and says "I'm your best choice" They all look good, yet also unimpressive to an extent.

At first I was glad when they re-did some powers so that they didn't work off of 1 specific SS, but rather your SS total, because I thought it gave more freedom in toonbuilding.

But now I'm finding sometimes I want to boost 4 stats - which lowers my SS pool, which lowers the effectiveness of powers that boost based on the SS pool.

On the build I'm playing with now I have 3 ways to play it with just some minor & fairly cheap tweaks from the Powerhouse. 2 variations are tanks, 1 is dps, and 1 tank version uses different SS's but uses the same main 4 stats that I depend on in all variations, so, the gear stays the same, I just have to change a few powers and in 1 case, the SS's too (for ~30g).

So anyway.. Yeah.. SS choices can be tough.

Btw.. Cold Snap seems to not be so uber to me unless you have a specific use for it due to only a few not super exciting (to me, I'm maybe missing something) powers that use it. And, Cold Snap <> Ice Cages - Chill does. Juuust in case you were depending on Cold Snap for Ice Cages I thought I'd mention this.

[JaguarX]

I've looked all through Ice and the closest I could get to "frozen solid in a block of ice" I could get was Ice Burst, but only after adding an advantage that added a paralyze to the original target, and I'm willing to be it's only "in a block of ice" cause the original power puts a ice pillar there but he's not literally stuck in it, like say Freeze Ray was in CoX, which is shocking to me. I would think the concept of freezing people inside ice would me fundamental to the concept of using ice powers at all.

Ah yes I see.

[JaguarX]

Was interested in Cold Snap for the damage bonus as well as being one main point of Ice Form, also there are a few powers that get a boost off of me having Cold Snap. And yeah, it's though, I've look through all 4 and saw what I'd take if they were my main Stat, but nothing that jumps out and says "I'm your best choice" They all look good, yet also unimpressive to an extent.

Sometimes choosing an Super stat is hard, on some toons it's pretty straight forward choice for me. For my use, Strength, Cons, Dex, and Ego(when playing a range toon) stands out.
Intelligence, Presence, looks good, but found them a bit underwhelming for my use and play style. But then others, man, they love them some Intelligence and presence super stat.


On some toons, for the concept, two super stats are focused on and the third is merely a side effect while others sometimes up to four with usually rec as a super stat being split with end on top of the other two primary ones.

One of the first thing I did when I got to CO was simply try out the super stats and combinations and see which ones impressed me, and which one were meh for my use and the concept that I had in mind. Early one, it was not unusual for a toon or two to go through five or six respecs just trying out different things before even reaching level 28.

CO is different is most aspects than COX, and that can be good or bad depending on the person. For me it's actually refreshing and lot of stuff there that I wish or rather wished could have been done in COX. Although there are some stuff that I wish was done like COX in CO, like I wish the controls and holds were more useful, and I don't even play control or hold based toons, but I see the powers there I see the potential then I wonder, why are they near useless. Of course I don't wish them to go as far as COX with controls where it became more of a slog slow down in combat and unless ya had break free or playing melee ya basically in for a big time waster being perma held.

[Xev]

When I was looking at powers with Crippling Challenge I saw the starter power for Ice and noticed how it works with Cold Snap. Then there is the Hard Frost advantage for that power, too. That seems like uber damage for any tier.

Hey if you are looking to boost crits and plan on using at least 1 active offense.,  Lock n' Load on a decent recharge could be a helpful tool. Or Ego Surge w/ Nimble mind. Could take both.

Staying in theme.. Ice sheath is nice due to it can be taken at an early level, has chill, and boosts crit severity.

Sorry yer bummed about the freezing people in a block of ice thing. Ice cages isn't the same thing but they can be entertaining, comforting to see even if not useful (they seem more useful than not to me), look kinda cool, and can appear a lot, too, which is what makes them seem useful to me because the mobs seem to get pre-occupied fighting them.

Like Jaguar, I've not been inspired with crowd control in CO, but, I've never hardcore specced/built for it either.

[PSI-on]

I agree, so far everything about control here is unimpressive, but....who in CoX was melee and perma held? That was the AT's WITH mez protection. o.O

Sometimes choosing an Super stat is hard, on some toons it's pretty straight forward choice for me. For my use, Strength, Cons, Dex, and Ego(when playing a range toon) stands out.
Intelligence, Presence, looks good, but found them a bit underwhelming for my use and play style. But then others, man, they love them some Intelligence and presence super stat.


On some toons, for the concept, two super stats are focused on and the third is merely a side effect while others sometimes up to four with usually rec as a super stat being split with end on top of the other two primary ones.

One of the first thing I did when I got to CO was simply try out the super stats and combinations and see which ones impressed me, and which one were meh for my use and the concept that I had in mind. Early one, it was not unusual for a toon or two to go through five or six respecs just trying out different things before even reaching level 28.

CO is different is most aspects than COX, and that can be good or bad depending on the person. For me it's actually refreshing and lot of stuff there that I wish or rather wished could have been done in COX. Although there are some stuff that I wish was done like COX in CO, like I wish the controls and holds were more useful, and I don't even play control or hold based toons, but I see the powers there I see the potential then I wonder, why are they near useless. Of course I don't wish them to go as far as COX with controls where it became more of a slog slow down in combat and unless ya had break free or playing melee ya basically in for a big time waster being perma held.

[JaguarX]

I agree, so far everything about control here is unimpressive, but....who in CoX was melee and perma held? That was the AT's WITH mez protection. o.O

I may have muddled that part.

It says unless ya had a break free or was playing a melee, then you risk being perma held.

Of course I think besides bubbles (force fields which had some mez protection but for the most part range characters were very susceptible for mezes and in many cases getting caught without a break free or happen to run out during a mission meant slow death

[Xev]

Ok, so, I wasn't getting a ton of Ice Cages last night and when I did the mobs they were on didn't last long. But.. It looked like they were not just rooting the mobs but holding them.

Chill/Ice Cages looks cool. I like to freeze/trap mobs in ice and then set them on fire. Gotta have hobbies..

I should wait until I'm sure they are holds or not but there ya go. They sure looked like holds in the brief moments I got to look at them last night so I had to share the potentially good news. Either you or me will find out for sure soon enuff. I plan on tossing tons of them around later today.

[Xev]

Ok so I got sidetracked with rerolling last night but.. in the Training Room, Ice Cages sure looked like they were holding, not rooting, mobs to me. If they weren't, they may as well have been because the mobs they were on weren't attacking me.

The only reason I'm not sure they are holds is that the majority of the time they appeared it was on mobs that were out of melee range that could have been trying to break free from a root to come get me instead of attacking from where they were possibly rooted to.

[JaguarX]

Ok so I got sidetracked with rerolling last night but.. in the Training Room, Ice Cages sure looked like they were holding, not rooting, mobs to me. If they weren't, they may as well have been because the mobs they were on weren't attacking me.

The only reason I'm not sure they are holds is that the majority of the time they appeared it was on mobs that were out of melee range that could have been trying to break free from a root to come get me instead of attacking from where they were possibly rooted to.

Ice powers do have a hold, and there is one that is a root.

[Xev]

Just trying to solve the Ice Cage mystery PSI started. In the wiki it says it's a root but it sure doesn't seem like one.