Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win

[JaguarX]

 Ads need not be obnoxious, and most of the innovation in making them work goes into both enhancing the play experience (rather than detracting from it) while making it MORE attractive as a metric-provider to sponsors without intruding on the players in ways they dislike. Loads of purely optional interaction combined with low-level everyday presence akin to what one sees in the real world.

Yeah definitely needs to be less intrusive than real life. Many people I know will sit through a commercial while watching The Walking Dead, they will even deal with commercials and ads while watching you tube, and don't even mind the commercials in a movie theater before a movie but will walk away from and not ever spend a single dime on a game that have commercials of those sorts.

[Segev]

Oh, good heavens, no!

I should make a point of this: when I say "no more intrusive than in real life," I mean literally "when you're walking down the street." Not "when you're watching TV."

TV and radio ads, even movie trailers before a movie, are built for very specific media, and even in those are considered interruptions. Product placement is far less obnoxious (though I know some people who do get irritated by it, most people are simply amused in my experience...if they notice it at all). Billboards, sides of buses, flyers posted to walls, banners proclaiming that such-and-such in-game event is sponsored by so-and-so (the way you see them at concerts and conventions)...that's the kind of "as intrusive as in real life" I'm talking about.

That, and the ability to literally rent real estate to some businesses. Generic Fast Food Store could be a McDonald's if they pay for it to be. Or a KFC. Or a Chik-Fil-A. Or a Subway.

Such things may be mildly jarring to those of us used to the lawsuit-conscious industry putting parodies in place of the real thing, but would quickly fade to the background with only mild "oh, I guess they changed who owned that establishment" reactions if sponsors changed.

I would count it tragic to put ads in loading screens. Or worse, video ads that you have to sit through before the zone or cutscene loads. That serves nobody well. It breaks immersion for the player, it is frustrating as a time sink, and it tends to be when players get up to use the bathroom or get a drink...assuming they come back at all. So even the sponsor isn't being served as his ad isn't being watched.

No, ads need to be done smoothly, and be ignorable to those who wish to ignore them. Not "you press this checkbox to turn them off" ignorable, but literally as ignorable as they are in real life, walking down the street.

[JaguarX]

Oh, good heavens, no!

I should make a point of this: when I say "no more intrusive than in real life," I mean literally "when you're walking down the street." Not "when you're watching TV."

TV and radio ads, even movie trailers before a movie, are built for very specific media, and even in those are considered interruptions. Product placement is far less obnoxious (though I know some people who do get irritated by it, most people are simply amused in my experience...if they notice it at all). Billboards, sides of buses, flyers posted to walls, banners proclaiming that such-and-such in-game event is sponsored by so-and-so (the way you see them at concerts and conventions)...that's the kind of "as intrusive as in real life" I'm talking about.

That, and the ability to literally rent real estate to some businesses. Generic Fast Food Store could be a McDonald's if they pay for it to be. Or a KFC. Or a Chik-Fil-A. Or a Subway.

Such things may be mildly jarring to those of us used to the lawsuit-conscious industry putting parodies in place of the real thing, but would quickly fade to the background with only mild "oh, I guess they changed who owned that establishment" reactions if sponsors changed.

I would count it tragic to put ads in loading screens. Or worse, video ads that you have to sit through before the zone or cutscene loads. That serves nobody well. It breaks immersion for the player, it is frustrating as a time sink, and it tends to be when players get up to use the bathroom or get a drink...assuming they come back at all. So even the sponsor isn't being served as his ad isn't being watched.

No, ads need to be done smoothly, and be ignorable to those who wish to ignore them. Not "you press this checkbox to turn them off" ignorable, but literally as ignorable as they are in real life, walking down the street.

Indeed.

Yeah me personally If play a game, and come across an ad in the loading scene which 99.9% of the time will be some product I don't have any urge to buy anyways, it will be annoying but probably complete the mish. By the second time, I'm looking for the exit door. By the third time it's on it's way to being uninstalled.


But running down the street and coming across a starbucks billboard or store front, first time I might actually stop and look and say, "well that's cool." and then keep it moving. I wont go out or get the sudden urge for starbucks but I wont quit playing either.


And don't forget in game advertisement can be a slippery slope of perceived endorsements. Like Walmart known now for cutting it's employees hours and health benefits and ridding of full time staff to hire part time staff so they dont have to provide any benefits, and having them in game can be viewed as endorsement for that action. Or having only corporate sponsors in a game that is supposedly anti-corporate ran can send mix signals, but then a bunch of stuff that no one heard of can be just as annoying.

Of course the usual rules of what can be place in ads and what cannot. A lot of places avoid things of politics and religion even though many wouldn't mind but it come off and endorsement. And of course many religious organization take it as insult but then that would require to be fair any religion from the most common to the least common and even some that contradict other. In this case say that Blizzard wanted to place an ad and wanted to pay handsomely. it might be turned down due to it's ad. for competition. Which would be sensible. But then a buddy with a game wanted to place and ad and since they are buddy/relative with the guy that decides what ads go in or not, if that ad is allowed then it not a good look and more what is endorsed or not and bit of nepotism is going on.

[Segev]

And if the Starbucks happened to sell, I dunno, a cool-down reduction inspiration-equivalent for some reasonable amount of in-game currency (inf-equivalent), it could get people to stop by of their own volition and at their convenience, and be a fun little joke about the nature of espresso. Maybe, being a hot beverage, it could also provide a brief bit of cold resistance or something.

And, for those who like Starbucks IRL, maybe buying an inspiration gives you, in a polite little tab in your inventory menu where you can go look at these things (NOT cluttering up your in-game inbox or anything), there might be a discount code for some item Starbucks hopes you'll try next time you're in.

All of which you can, as you said, simply run on by if you don't care. Worst case, you put up with seeing Starbucks logos while you buy an inspiration despite not wanting to deal with the discount codes. You never need to look at the code (though a tutorial aspect of the game likely will inform you of the tab the first time you get one, just so you know it's there).

[AlabasterKnight]

The CoH ones still didn't mesh with the art style of the game world though.

That's because the art team didn't appear to *redraw them* when they received the ad and ensure they meshed with the art style.

[JanessaVR]

Indeed, this is the kind of thing I'd find rather cool in-game.  Certainly, forced ads in loading screens or character creation would be seriously annoying (at least if I was a VIP player - if I was a freebie player, I'd be far more tolerant of such), but walking down the street in-game?  That actually adds a nice touch of realism to the game world - passing a McDonald's instead of a generic Bob's Burgers or a Starbucks instead of a generic Kathy's Coffeehouse.  If you guys can get endorsements for such to change building signs, or even building layouts - an actual McDonald's restaurant building instead of just a generic building or storefront - then go for it.  I, at least, have no objections.

[srmalloy]

If I have my druthers, ads as a revenue source in MMOs will evolve to include both "product placement" at its simplest (the car on the street might just be the newest model from Chevy; Doctor Dogooder might be drinking Tab when he gives you your mission) unobtrusive form, but should also have some level of interactivity that is voluntary on the players' part. See an ad for some real-world company on a billboard? Maybe if you click on it, you'll get a neat little costume bit paid for by that sponsor as part of their ad campaign. Or maybe a piece of base decoration. There's a company called "blinds.com" that sells its blinds online, and prides itself on its system for interacting with customers over the phone and helping them plan window dressings through video-phone; if they were a sponsor, they might have a mini-mission or ap for doing just that to put a special "blinds" item into your living space. If you're really interested in the product, we might have an optional interaction that would give you a discount code to use on their site.

To do this, different types of placement would have to be scaled in cost, depending on the amount of art resources that have to be devoted to adding the product to the game. Changing a billboard merely requires adding a texture to the library of available billboard sheets and telling the game client to add it to rotation when populating billboards. Making a random car on the street be the 2014 Mustang would require a mesh for the object, a skin for its appearance, and animation if it moves (wheels, headlights, etc.). If a contact is already animated drinking something from a can in their hand, making the drink a specific product is another 'apply a texture' problem, but if they're just standing there, then you need to add the can and change the character's animation.

But running down the street and coming across a starbucks billboard or store front, first time I might actually stop and look and say, "well that's cool." and then keep it moving. I wont go out or get the sudden urge for starbucks but I wont quit playing either.

Although some of the more entertaining things about the environment in CoH were the parodies of real businesses in the signage, like the 'Infront Steakhouse' chain.

[Golden Girl]

Any form of product placement or real world business tie in of any kind pollutes gaming and degrades gamers.

[JanessaVR]

Any form of product placement or real world business tie in of any kind pollutes gaming and degrades gamers.

That's needlessly hard-line and extremist.  You may feel that way, but many others clearly do not.

[Segev]

To do this, different types of placement would have to be scaled in cost, depending on the amount of art resources that have to be devoted to adding the product to the game. Changing a billboard merely requires adding a texture to the library of available billboard sheets and telling the game client to add it to rotation when populating billboards. Making a random car on the street be the 2014 Mustang would require a mesh for the object, a skin for its appearance, and animation if it moves (wheels, headlights, etc.). If a contact is already animated drinking something from a can in their hand, making the drink a specific product is another 'apply a texture' problem, but if they're just standing there, then you need to add the can and change the character's animation.

Agreed. Moreover, because the key to advertising effectiveness in a virtual city will be the same as in a real city, prices for ad space on different billboards with different visibility should be different. Ideally, a "new car" will often just be a texture issue, as well. It's a different brand logo.

When they want an honest-to-goodness representation of a new model car, then yes, that will cost a little more. (On the other hand, it becomes part of our library of vehicles with which to populate the street, even after we strip off the logos, unless they're paying for exclusivity in their function.) It may be somewhat simpler than a full-fledged build of a new model for many if it's just a body overlay, like a costume on the base "car" character model that has functional wheels, etc.)

Mercifully, as well, the nature of animations and typical rigging of models means that as long as we have a "take a drink" emote, having any given contact do so will not be problematic, so it remains a texture issue.

Although some of the more entertaining things about the environment in CoH were the parodies of real businesses in the signage, like the 'Infront Steakhouse' chain.

Oh, I know. But having real-world ones won't hurt. Heck, I would not be surprised if some sponsors wanted a parody of their store in the game, because in a lot of ways, making the player stop and think "what's that a parody of...?" will cause them to give MORE thought to the real-world company or product than just seeing the product.

Though it might take some study to see if that's the case in reality.

[Golden Girl]

That's needlessly hard-line and extremist.  You may feel that way, but many others clearly do not.

A stand needs to be made against the corporatism corrupting gaming - the community already lost its first home to it, so when we're building its new home, we're obviously going to be keeping it a corporatism-free space.

[Segev]

The poison isn't in the idea of trading value for value; it's in the failure to grasp that the customer is valuable because they are receiving value. In the case of CoH's closure, barring unknowns that make it truly impossible for NCSoft to make a profit despite the revenue stream, it's a case of the company making a bad business decision.

Blaming the concept of business for participants' bad decisions is akin to blaming the concept of baseball for a Major League team manager's putting a blind man in as the fourth in his batting order.

All money is, in the end, is a measure of how much perceived value you have provided to others, as calculated by those others. There will always be shysters and "clever" men who will find ways to distort this, tricking people out of it or otherwise distorting this measure, but it always corrects itself in time. What MWM is striving to do is to design a new model and method of doing business in this particular industry, with an eye towards providing the greatest possible value and being rewarded by becoming big enough to demonstrate that the current "standard" methods are less optimal. In so doing, we provide our community with exactly what it wants and we create a new standard that serves its customers better, improving things for customers and corporations (who follow the new, improved model) alike. (At least, that's our hope. I don't have a crystal ball or anything. I just happen to believe we're on the right track, in this regard.)

[Golden Girl]

An MMO is a digital world, not a digital store or digital marketplace.

[JanessaVR]

A stand needs to be made against the corporatism corrupting gaming - the community already lost its first home to it, so when we're building its new home, we're obviously going to be keeping it a corporatism-free space.

You mean when you're building your successor game that's what you're going to do - it doesn't sound like CoT is going that route, and I for one am glad.

[JWBullfrog]

I can agree with GG to a point.
Advertising is not entirely evil and, if used in moderation in the correct spaces, it can be a very effective way of making money. I'll come back to this in a moment.
 
Having said that, I fully agree that advertising real world businesses in a virtual world is something I am not comfortable with.
When you build a game world, assuming you have done it correctly, you have a living, breathing, cohesive whole with it's own institutions and assumptions. An MMO, or most any other RPG game is a story and, as the game's creator, you want the player to become part of that story. The more immersed the player is, the more they care about progressing in the game and, the more they care about progressing, the more they'll want to play the game which is exactly what you want from the creator's point of view.
The presence of real world symbology (advertising, for example) shatters a players sense of immersion in the story in the same way that watching a film on broadcast television is not the same experience as watching the same film in a theater setting.
Now, if you have based your fictional world on the real world (in the style of GTA or CoD or others) then seeing a Coca Cola sign or a familiar set of Golden Arches will actually feel 'right' and the player will accept them. The only way for this to work well is if you've built these into the game right from the very beginning. If you try to retrofit them, they will look 'wrong' and it will distract from gameplay. We saw examples of this in our own beloved Paragon City. Ads for Zombcare, and The Clanket, and Pinnacle apartments, and Royal's Books all fit in but the short lived adds for Nike and Burger King just clashed.
 
There is a way to make this work (told you I'd come back to this.) If your game has a seperate marketplace feature (like PWE's zen store or the Paragon Marketplace) then that is a place where you can allow for as much advertising as you wish. True, this does violate the 'maximum exposure' rule of advertising, but it maintains game integrity. It's bad enough knowing that there is some corporate entitity behing the game just trying to take my money from me (looking at you Sony) without having that fact getting in the way of the story.
 
As always, my opinion. Make of it what you will.

[Segev]

That is the beauty of freedom to control the fruits of one's labor: you can use them and direct them as you wish, and let the objective reality of how people interact with them dictate what is the optimal method.

...apologies for all the "optimal" talk; Computational Intelligence techniques lead me to think in those terms. All it really means is "what works the best? Find and do that."



JWBullfrog, I agree that you have to keep things fitting the feel of your world. The beautiful thing about our chosen genre: modern-day setting that is "just like the real world, except with superheroes," is that "the familiar golden arches" would, in fact, feel pretty natural. Nobody objects to seeing real-world car brands in the Avengers or Transformers. They don't break you out of the immersion.

You're also right that you need to build it in from the get-go, because you can't have it suddenly "change" on people. The level of realism and connection to real-world assumptions is critical to get right from the beginning.

[JWBullfrog]

Exactly so.
 
If the ideas are there from the beginning then, well, they were there from the beginning and they're an organic part of the narrative. You accept them and move forward but, if you've never had them there before (and here we come back to the idea of inorganic idea of lockboxes) it makes feels awkward.
 
As long as you have a plausible reason for those particular advertisers or that particular game function, then all is well. The concern is finding that balance.

[Golden Girl]

And how do you handle situation when an advertiser becomes toxic, as in the case of Chick-fil-A, which was mentioned earlier? Do you remove their store models from the game, and replace them with new ones, or just retexture the existing ones?

[JWBullfrog]

If you have a generic enough 'storefront' you can simply re-texture it. A billboard can be treated the same way. Besides, it happens enough in real life that one shop becoming another is acceptable. Yes, I know I'm using real life to justify continuity in a fictional world but the concept is valid.
 
Also, there's the idea of replacing an advertiser once their contracted time limit has expired. Even if they did not become a problem child, they probably won't be there forever and you'd be facing the same situation. 
 
The point is, replacing advertisers isn't that big of a problem. A little foresight solves the problem before you have it.

[JaguarX]

Well in my earlier post I did say some may not see it as all good especially in a game or games that is supposedly supposed to be anti-corporation but running through is full of corporate sponsors and ads. 

Like I said, I wouldn't mind it, and wouldn't think too much of it, but there are downsides to it. It can be viewed as saying "We don't want to be part of the meat industry because it's cruel to animals and want to show that a food industry not revolving around meat can survive." yet the website is full of meat industry ads and sponsorship even if non-intrusive. 

I say go for it bit by bit OR, I have another idea. How about ads from other indie non-major corporate companies? Like someone in the area know about some indie, say, restaurant owned by some family that is friendly and work outside the corporate world in the game? That way the message is not lost while at the same time, supporting other indie companies like the ones that are building the game projects.