Author Topic: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win  (Read 18335 times)

Peregrine Falcon

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Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« on: September 24, 2013, 11:14:01 AM »
Massively: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win

"Emmert will be delivering a talk during a session titled How to Avoid Pay-to-Win with F2P."

Frankly this whole situation just makes me laugh.

While it's true that both STO and NW have more than just a bit of P2W in them, it's hard to actually blame Jack Emmert for this. After all, Perfect World Entertainment bought Cryptic Studios from Atari for $49.8 million US dollars back in 2011, and the F2P/P2W business model that was added to STO, and later NW, was pretty much the same as in all of their other games. So it's pretty likely that he has little to no say in what happens with Cryptic's games, at least as far as the cash shop is concerned.

So while I do find the comments section amusing, as always, blaming Jack for the P2W parts of STO & NW is akin to blaming the janitor for a game company's horrible business model or DRM.
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General Idiot

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 04:08:46 AM »
It's also worth noting that in STO at least, the stuff you get out of the lockboxes isn't hugely better than anything you can get normally. Some of it is better, yes, but not by such a huge margin that you're gimped if you don't have it. Which is what people usually mean when they refer to pay to win.

CO I'm not so sure about. Freeform characters are certainly a lot more versatile than archetypes but I'm not sure that necessarily makes them better, as such. And again, most of the stuff from lockboxes and such are only very slightly better than normal stuff, plus it's possible to get keys without paying anyway via the questionite exchange or ingame auction house.

JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 04:53:18 AM »
yeah.


 pay to win
luck to win
grind to win
 reflex skill to win


All the same. Some people will love it, especially if they gain great advantage, money or have the skill, luck, time for that system or hate it because they lack money, skill, luck, time for the system.

General Idiot

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 09:08:37 AM »
In all of Cryptic's games though, it's pay OR grind to win. Which is slightly more acceptable, maybe.

Peregrine Falcon

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 01:14:36 PM »
It's also worth noting that in STO at least, the stuff you get out of the lockboxes isn't hugely better than anything you can get normally.
The ships that buy in the in-game store are more powerful that any ship you can earn in game. The devs themselves referred to them as "plus one ships." And Al 'CaptainGeko' Rivera said 'of course they're better, you're paying real money for them.' I'm paraphrasing from memory.

Also, the many of the ships that you get from the lockboxes, particularly the Jem'Hadar bug ship, are considerably more powerful than any ship that you can acquire for free in game.

So when you can BUY gear (ships) that's considerably more powerful than stuff that you can get for free in game then how is that game NOT pay-to-win?
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dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 02:26:38 PM »
While I see your point, I would not spend real money on a ship if all it had was a cooler look than one I had for free. Maybe my philosophy has changed, since I did buy a couple of the Booster Packs just for the costume set.:)

In the end, though, it's not pay-to-win, at least in the Cryptic games. It's pay-for-QoL. You can buy better gear, but it's not critical to the success of a mission.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 02:34:13 PM »
The idea of getting a starship out of a lockbox seems completely comical to me and prevents me from taking the game seriously.

I know it's a "requisition pack" or whatever, but I still can't get the image out of my head of somebody opening a box and a huge ship popping out of it.

dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 02:37:51 PM »
I have that problem with all of the Cryptic games. I haven't played any of the Perfect World games outside of the Cryptic stable to know if that's a construct that they originated, but it is pretty clumsy from a narrative standpoint. Also, "zen" as a currency...
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

srmalloy

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 03:20:25 PM »
The idea of getting a starship out of a lockbox seems completely comical to me and prevents me from taking the game seriously.

You'd laugh at the delivery system when you open packs from the Cartel Market in SWTOR, then... the packages get 'delivered' like an orbital bombardment -- a delivery crate falls out of the sky and crashes to ground in front of you in a little crater. This is fine when you're out on a planet somewhere, but the disbelief stretches when you're inside a building... or on one of the fleet space stations... or on your personal starship. The contents-to-volume issue isn't as bad as getting a starship out of a lockbox, but getting a delivery crate that comes up to your knee that contains a twelve-foot-long speeder bike is a little giggleworthy.

AlabasterKnight

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 04:33:50 PM »
The idea of getting a starship out of a lockbox seems completely comical to me and prevents me from taking the game seriously.

I know it's a "requisition pack" or whatever, but I still can't get the image out of my head of somebody opening a box and a huge ship popping out of it.
Even it was purchased on Christmas or something?
(Truly, I have the same image. You'd think that there would be an instance where you go to a space dock and get handed orders and shown your beautiful new ship or something....)

General Idiot

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 12:08:13 AM »
The ships that buy in the in-game store are more powerful that any ship you can earn in game. The devs themselves referred to them as "plus one ships." And Al 'CaptainGeko' Rivera said 'of course they're better, you're paying real money for them.' I'm paraphrasing from memory.

Also, the many of the ships that you get from the lockboxes, particularly the Jem'Hadar bug ship, are considerably more powerful than any ship that you can acquire for free in game.

So when you can BUY gear (ships) that's considerably more powerful than stuff that you can get for free in game then how is that game NOT pay-to-win?

They are better, yes. I never said they weren't, I'm simply saying they're not the massive jump in power that people usually associate with the concept of pay to win. They're the slightly more acceptable form of pay to win where it's only a very slight advantage at best.

As for the lockbox ships, you can get those pretty easily without paying a cent. Well, you might have to by the energy credit cap increase to be able to hold enough to buy one of those ships off the market but the ships themselves you can get with a little effort. Either manipulating the market, or converting dilithium to zen and buying something which you can then sell. Or buying keys directly through the same method, again without paying anything.

JWBullfrog

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2013, 12:28:26 AM »
I absolutely love lockboxes in PWE games...
 
They drop all the time and they're worth a few coppers every time. It's a steady source of income.
 
If I remember correctly, our own City had it's share of people shouting that it was 'Pay to Win.' Over the seven years I had in game, I could never see it. My game was never effected by whether or not somebody else decided to pay real money.
 
PWG games (which I do play regularly) are not all that different. It is entirely possible to ignore lockboxes and still have a satisfying game play experience using only the items that can be found in game.
 
In fact, I consider it a challenge.
 
Anyone, no matter how horrible a player they are, can beat a game by spending money. This is a lesson I learned playing M:TG may years ago. But, like in that game, I thought it was more fun to use whatever fell into my hands and figure out a way to win.
 
 
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dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 12:31:40 AM »
I'm pretty sure you can't sell lock boxes in the Cryptic games. "Fortunately," they stack to 99 or 100 or something. ;D
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JWBullfrog

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 12:42:37 AM »
I'm pretty sure you can't sell lock boxes in the Cryptic games. "Fortunately," they stack to 99 or 100 or something. ;D

Actually, you can. They go for pennies in STO and Neverwinter, but they can be sold to any in game shop.
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General Idiot

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2013, 09:51:14 AM »
In STO and Neverwinter you can vendor them, in CO you can't. I think.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 12:43:11 PM »
49 million? That seems a little low considering it's an entire studio (the very studio that created CoH which was valued by NCSoft @ 80 ~ million)

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 07:03:28 PM »
Lockboxes are pretty unethical and don't really have anything to do with gaming.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 07:11:21 PM »
Lockboxes are pretty unethical and don't really have anything to do with gaming.

Well other than putting money into the game to keep it going, but I agree I dislike them.

I wouldn't mind so much if you could earn even one key per month by means other than cash.

General Idiot

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2013, 12:08:48 AM »
In all three of Cryptic's games, you can. STO especially where it's trivially easy to hit the dilithium cap every day, you can earn a key every couple of days if you want.

Remaugen

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 05:15:00 AM »
I wouldn't mind putting up with an occasional in game advert if it meant keeping things F2P. Passive ads like background billboards would be perfectly acceptable, as would a five or ten second start up clip. I could even put up with "This mission brought to you by XYZ".

I had two paid accounts for the last several years but I am unlikely to pay for two if the game should ever return, but I would be happy to pay for one and live with ads on the second. . .
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 05:42:33 AM »
In Champions Online....

The anniversary lockboxes are the last i'm going to bother opening, even though 90% of the time I only use keys I'd purchased on the auction house in CO.  It's tiring to lose globals in the game and not get enough in return, it really is a gamble.  I notice lockboxes really just damaged the economy; prices plummeted for mods and questionite/zen rates skyrocketed.  They are higher then I'd ever seen them before, it's kinda sad.  And annoyingly it does make it somewhat pay to win.  Some builds cannot be done so well without say legion gear of avoidence and the devs are wanting to NERF dodge/avoidence now, making some builds unviable(anything but invuln/regen/defiance basically).

If that changed, i'd be done with CO.  I'm tired of seeing the only form of difficulty being "keeping ahead of the nerf bat", which is fake difficulty and it's annoying as hell.  I certainly worry CO is turning into pay to win, for all those reasons.  And becoming another holy trinity grind.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 02:08:37 PM »
My game was never effected by whether or not somebody else decided to pay real money.

You must have been one of those people who used he SFX mod for Demon Summoning. Dear lord those things are obnoxious.

JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 06:11:55 PM »
I absolutely love lockboxes in PWE games...
 
They drop all the time and they're worth a few coppers every time. It's a steady source of income.
 
If I remember correctly, our own City had it's share of people shouting that it was 'Pay to Win.' Over the seven years I had in game, I could never see it. My game was never effected by whether or not somebody else decided to pay real money.
 
PWG games (which I do play regularly) are not all that different. It is entirely possible to ignore lockboxes and still have a satisfying game play experience using only the items that can be found in game.
 
In fact, I consider it a challenge.
 
Anyone, no matter how horrible a player they are, can beat a game by spending money. This is a lesson I learned playing M:TG may years ago. But, like in that game, I thought it was more fun to use whatever fell into my hands and figure out a way to win.

Yeah, lockboxes are ok. When I decide to open a few, I may not get the best stuff but I'm usually able to make a pretty penny off each opening, and that's selling the stuff way below the cheapest listed prices.

In COX, many days I had Pacing of the Turtle days being my best drops while watching people left and right get purple after purple. I couldnt even sell those things by the ton to get enough to buy six SOs. So much for playing the market to make money. Putting in the same amount of work while getting way less is a little discouraging. Especially when people automatically say, Well, play this and that. When I already did ten times over and still came up empty handed.

Sometimes I wished that COX had a little bit more "pay to win" so that luck wasnt everything. Accuracy-luck Defense-luck good drops-luck scrapper crits-luck controller extra hold mag-luck. I would have payed some money in areas when my luck failed often and all the while it would put extra cash in the income block for COX.

Golden Girl

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 08:16:38 PM »
In-game ads are also a no-no.
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srmalloy

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 03:34:47 PM »
In-game ads are also a no-no.

It depends on how they're implemented; the abortive attempt to sell ad space in CoH, where the ads would appear on the billboards around the city, was a low-obtrusiveness implementation spoiled by the poor randomization of the ads -- for example, I recall seeing a stack of three billboards in Port Oakes all with the same ad on them -- something that would rarely be done by commercial advertisers, preferring to spread their placement out to get face time with a wider range of people. But people expect to see advertising on billboards; seeing a commercial advertisement on a billboard in-game isn't as intrusive as having ads on loading screens, in the character creator, etc. -- stuck into the game where there's no reason for an ad (either game-world or commercial) to be there except to shove the product in your face is disruptive. The less a game world resembles our current environment, the more intrusive ads during play will appear, which limits the type of game that can have embedded ads without breaking immersion. You wouldn't bat an eye at driving past a billboard for Coca-Cola in GTA V, for example, while the same ad on the wall of a building on Alderaan would look horribly out of place.




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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2013, 11:50:25 PM »
The CoH ones still didn't mesh with the art style of the game world though.
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JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2013, 12:13:52 AM »
But people expect to see advertising on billboards; seeing a commercial advertisement on a billboard in-game isn't as intrusive as having ads on loading screens, in the character creator, etc. -- stuck into the game where there's no reason for an ad (either game-world or commercial) to be there except to shove the product in your face is disruptive.
I wouldn't mind or even probably pay too much attention to ads on billboards.

But having ads in loading screens character creators and such, would be highly annoying. Go to youtube, 15 sec ad for a 1 minute video. watch tv, commercials every 8-10 mins, radio commercials. Me personally I don't need an ad telling me what I will like. If I like it I don't need ad to buy it. If I don't like it don't matter how many ads in the world I aint going to buy it. They say they have ads on youtube now because otherwise they would have to charge. Hell, I rather pay monthly fee for youtube then deal with those ads. It wouldn't be so bad if the ads were varied but seeing the same ad over and over and over every video gets highly annoying and thus I don't even really use youtube anymore.

Sometimes, a peaceful fun environment free from corporate world trying to make a dollar is nice. In the real world, meh, have to deal with it. In game, I aint paying to have pop up ads, time or money. I rather watch a blank loading screen. I feel those ads should be paying me for that time especially if it's a product I'm not interested in the first place.

But if ads is the only way, what can you do? Go for it. It's a shrinking world for advertisement. Hell when I start my car I'm almost expect it to play some sponsored ad from Viagra or something before the car starts.

Kyriani

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2013, 04:22:03 AM »
I honestly love how COH tried to do ads. I took advantage of that system to make my client more like real life. I put it in advertising targeted specifically at myself just to make the world feel more real to me. Here's an example of my client with my modifications:






I would find such integration of real world advertising in this manner non-intrusive and actually adding ambiance to the game world.

JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2013, 04:44:44 AM »
I honestly love how COH tried to do ads. I took advantage of that system to make my client more like real life. I put it in advertising targeted specifically at myself just to make the world feel more real to me. Here's an example of my client with my modifications:






I would find such integration of real world advertising in this manner non-intrusive and actually adding ambiance to the game world.

Yeah I could be done with that.

All we need now is a radio mission that says "The Skulls just robbed a KFC. Stop them before they get away."

JanessaVR

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2013, 12:17:33 AM »
Actually, that's pretty darn cool.   8)

So is that mish idea.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2013, 05:27:58 AM »
Yeah, Those are pretty cool. To be honest, I never noticed the Ads. At all. Ever. Not very effective for me I guess.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2013, 12:23:56 PM »
Very cool! :)

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2013, 03:08:40 PM »
sorry I just cant take jack seriously anymore, he and pwe is the reason champions is how it is now. He has no qualms about trashing sto as well. He just does not understand sto is the top rated game that cryptic made aside from city of.
Also gg, you may think lockboxes is unethical but did you have a issue with them when city of had the packs? also a lot of games seem to be going down the road nowadays. 
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2013, 05:47:27 PM »
Also gg, you may think lockboxes is unethical but did you have a issue with them when city of had the packs? also a lot of games seem to be going down the road nowadays.
I think the difference between the lock boxes in STO (and other games) and the packs in COH is that the lock boxes drop as loot from defeated enemies (and take up inventory space) that you then have to go buy a magic, one use, key to unlock. The Packs you just plain bought at the store, you didn't get them from a group of "Skulz" then have to buy the pair of magic, one use, scissors to open the pack with.

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Angel Phoenix77

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2013, 07:55:07 PM »
I think the difference between the lock boxes in STO (and other games) and the packs in COH is that the lock boxes drop as loot from defeated enemies (and take up inventory space) that you then have to go buy a magic, one use, key to unlock. The Packs you just plain bought at the store, you didn't get them from a group of "Skulz" then have to buy the pair of magic, one use, scissors to open the pack with.

My opinion, of course.
that is very true, in fact I didn't think about city of you had to buy them sense they don't drop from enemies 
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2013, 12:27:57 AM »
Also the ones in CoH had actually worthwhile stuff in them almost always rather than the tiny chances most games have. Sure, they had the standard xp/influence boosters that every game puts in such things but they also had the archetype enhancements in almost every pack and the costume set again in almost every pack until you had them all. So when I opened one I never felt like I'd just wasted my money.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2013, 12:37:27 AM »
I was never unhappy opening a pack in COH... ever. I may not have gotten what I wanted but I always got something valuable. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Even if it was only merits which could be used for valuable recipes.

Lockboxes suck because they are a scam. They more likely than not have crap in them and the idea is to get you to buy lots of keys to keep opening them in the hopes that you'll open the once in a blue moon "not crap" box. It's a scam.

The superpacks were nothing like them. You ALWAYS got something useful from a pack. Even if it was only merits.

JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2013, 01:30:31 AM »
well I think with each lockbox ya got something too that could be spent to buy items, just like merits.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2013, 02:11:33 AM »
I was never unhappy opening a pack in COH... ever. I may not have gotten what I wanted but I always got something valuable. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Even if it was only merits which could be used for valuable recipes.

Lockboxes suck because they are a scam. They more likely than not have crap in them and the idea is to get you to buy lots of keys to keep opening them in the hopes that you'll open the once in a blue moon "not crap" box. It's a scam.

The superpacks were nothing like them. You ALWAYS got something useful from a pack. Even if it was only merits.

I am with you on this one, Kyriani. I bought every single pack for both of my accounts, and never regretted it.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2013, 07:19:24 PM »
Yeah, Those are pretty cool. To be honest, I never noticed the Ads. At all. Ever. Not very effective for me I guess.
If I have my druthers, ads as a revenue source in MMOs will evolve to include both "product placement" at its simplest (the car on the street might just be the newest model from Chevy; Doctor Dogooder might be drinking Tab when he gives you your mission) unobtrusive form, but should also have some level of interactivity that is voluntary on the players' part. See an ad for some real-world company on a billboard? Maybe if you click on it, you'll get a neat little costume bit paid for by that sponsor as part of their ad campaign. Or maybe a piece of base decoration. There's a company called "blinds.com" that sells its blinds online, and prides itself on its system for interacting with customers over the phone and helping them plan window dressings through video-phone; if they were a sponsor, they might have a mini-mission or ap for doing just that to put a special "blinds" item into your living space. If you're really interested in the product, we might have an optional interaction that would give you a discount code to use on their site.

Sponsors would thus be paying to add bits of content to the game, and would be doing it only as obtrusively as players wanted to interact with. Look around your house and at the clothes people wear on the street; logos are everywhere. Today's fashions tend towards making them stylish enough to blend in, but there are a few who bling them up like NASCAR drivers; both should be options, and ways to help make the game profitable enough to sustain itself while minimizing real costs to our players.

A lot of the problem CoH had was their model for paying for ads. We can do a combination of mechanisms, from modeling billboard ad prices on how it's done IRL (location location location!) to having optional interaction with the players (which helps the sponsor get a feel for how much people are paying attention to their ads, and makes sponsorship with us all the more attractive), to facilitating connecting people who WANT something with the supplier (convenience for all involved when the advertising works).

Above all, it must NOT be obtrusive any more than it is IRL. Maybe even less so. MMOs are a medium unique from TV, print, or RL locations or radio, but they have elements of each, and any use of ads in MMOs needs to recognize this. Ads in MMOs need to use the power of being an interactive medium while avoiding being an obnoxious interruption of the play experience. Like TV and movies, product placement can help. Like radio spots, interaction to get a discount code can help sponsors track the effectiveness of their ads. Like billboards and other public locations, ads can be charged for by their placement in the world. The interactivity can be made into an easter egg hunt of its own, and get sponsors still more information while not getting in the way of the game play for the player. MMOs are a gathering place with some unique and powerful tools to enhance the interaction of those gathered there. They're a virtual town square combined with a theme park and a hangout joint.


Tl;dr: Ads need not be obnoxious, and most of the innovation in making them work goes into both enhancing the play experience (rather than detracting from it) while making it MORE attractive as a metric-provider to sponsors without intruding on the players in ways they dislike. Loads of purely optional interaction combined with low-level everyday presence akin to what one sees in the real world.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2013, 07:26:26 PM »


 Ads need not be obnoxious, and most of the innovation in making them work goes into both enhancing the play experience (rather than detracting from it) while making it MORE attractive as a metric-provider to sponsors without intruding on the players in ways they dislike. Loads of purely optional interaction combined with low-level everyday presence akin to what one sees in the real world.

Yeah definitely needs to be less intrusive than real life. Many people I know will sit through a commercial while watching The Walking Dead, they will even deal with commercials and ads while watching you tube, and don't even mind the commercials in a movie theater before a movie but will walk away from and not ever spend a single dime on a game that have commercials of those sorts.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2013, 07:41:36 PM »
Oh, good heavens, no!

I should make a point of this: when I say "no more intrusive than in real life," I mean literally "when you're walking down the street." Not "when you're watching TV."

TV and radio ads, even movie trailers before a movie, are built for very specific media, and even in those are considered interruptions. Product placement is far less obnoxious (though I know some people who do get irritated by it, most people are simply amused in my experience...if they notice it at all). Billboards, sides of buses, flyers posted to walls, banners proclaiming that such-and-such in-game event is sponsored by so-and-so (the way you see them at concerts and conventions)...that's the kind of "as intrusive as in real life" I'm talking about.

That, and the ability to literally rent real estate to some businesses. Generic Fast Food Store could be a McDonald's if they pay for it to be. Or a KFC. Or a Chik-Fil-A. Or a Subway.

Such things may be mildly jarring to those of us used to the lawsuit-conscious industry putting parodies in place of the real thing, but would quickly fade to the background with only mild "oh, I guess they changed who owned that establishment" reactions if sponsors changed.

I would count it tragic to put ads in loading screens. Or worse, video ads that you have to sit through before the zone or cutscene loads. That serves nobody well. It breaks immersion for the player, it is frustrating as a time sink, and it tends to be when players get up to use the bathroom or get a drink...assuming they come back at all. So even the sponsor isn't being served as his ad isn't being watched.

No, ads need to be done smoothly, and be ignorable to those who wish to ignore them. Not "you press this checkbox to turn them off" ignorable, but literally as ignorable as they are in real life, walking down the street.

JaguarX

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2013, 07:46:32 PM »
Oh, good heavens, no!

I should make a point of this: when I say "no more intrusive than in real life," I mean literally "when you're walking down the street." Not "when you're watching TV."

TV and radio ads, even movie trailers before a movie, are built for very specific media, and even in those are considered interruptions. Product placement is far less obnoxious (though I know some people who do get irritated by it, most people are simply amused in my experience...if they notice it at all). Billboards, sides of buses, flyers posted to walls, banners proclaiming that such-and-such in-game event is sponsored by so-and-so (the way you see them at concerts and conventions)...that's the kind of "as intrusive as in real life" I'm talking about.

That, and the ability to literally rent real estate to some businesses. Generic Fast Food Store could be a McDonald's if they pay for it to be. Or a KFC. Or a Chik-Fil-A. Or a Subway.

Such things may be mildly jarring to those of us used to the lawsuit-conscious industry putting parodies in place of the real thing, but would quickly fade to the background with only mild "oh, I guess they changed who owned that establishment" reactions if sponsors changed.

I would count it tragic to put ads in loading screens. Or worse, video ads that you have to sit through before the zone or cutscene loads. That serves nobody well. It breaks immersion for the player, it is frustrating as a time sink, and it tends to be when players get up to use the bathroom or get a drink...assuming they come back at all. So even the sponsor isn't being served as his ad isn't being watched.

No, ads need to be done smoothly, and be ignorable to those who wish to ignore them. Not "you press this checkbox to turn them off" ignorable, but literally as ignorable as they are in real life, walking down the street.

Indeed.

Yeah me personally If play a game, and come across an ad in the loading scene which 99.9% of the time will be some product I don't have any urge to buy anyways, it will be annoying but probably complete the mish. By the second time, I'm looking for the exit door. By the third time it's on it's way to being uninstalled.


But running down the street and coming across a starbucks billboard or store front, first time I might actually stop and look and say, "well that's cool." and then keep it moving. I wont go out or get the sudden urge for starbucks but I wont quit playing either.


And don't forget in game advertisement can be a slippery slope of perceived endorsements. Like Walmart known now for cutting it's employees hours and health benefits and ridding of full time staff to hire part time staff so they dont have to provide any benefits, and having them in game can be viewed as endorsement for that action. Or having only corporate sponsors in a game that is supposedly anti-corporate ran can send mix signals, but then a bunch of stuff that no one heard of can be just as annoying.

Of course the usual rules of what can be place in ads and what cannot. A lot of places avoid things of politics and religion even though many wouldn't mind but it come off and endorsement. And of course many religious organization take it as insult but then that would require to be fair any religion from the most common to the least common and even some that contradict other. In this case say that Blizzard wanted to place an ad and wanted to pay handsomely. it might be turned down due to it's ad. for competition. Which would be sensible. But then a buddy with a game wanted to place and ad and since they are buddy/relative with the guy that decides what ads go in or not, if that ad is allowed then it not a good look and more what is endorsed or not and bit of nepotism is going on.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 07:55:17 PM by JaguarX »

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2013, 07:55:22 PM »
And if the Starbucks happened to sell, I dunno, a cool-down reduction inspiration-equivalent for some reasonable amount of in-game currency (inf-equivalent), it could get people to stop by of their own volition and at their convenience, and be a fun little joke about the nature of espresso. Maybe, being a hot beverage, it could also provide a brief bit of cold resistance or something.

And, for those who like Starbucks IRL, maybe buying an inspiration gives you, in a polite little tab in your inventory menu where you can go look at these things (NOT cluttering up your in-game inbox or anything), there might be a discount code for some item Starbucks hopes you'll try next time you're in.

All of which you can, as you said, simply run on by if you don't care. Worst case, you put up with seeing Starbucks logos while you buy an inspiration despite not wanting to deal with the discount codes. You never need to look at the code (though a tutorial aspect of the game likely will inform you of the tab the first time you get one, just so you know it's there).

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2013, 08:25:17 PM »
The CoH ones still didn't mesh with the art style of the game world though.
That's because the art team didn't appear to *redraw them* when they received the ad and ensure they meshed with the art style.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2013, 09:56:40 PM »
Indeed, this is the kind of thing I'd find rather cool in-game.  Certainly, forced ads in loading screens or character creation would be seriously annoying (at least if I was a VIP player - if I was a freebie player, I'd be far more tolerant of such), but walking down the street in-game?  That actually adds a nice touch of realism to the game world - passing a McDonald's instead of a generic Bob's Burgers or a Starbucks instead of a generic Kathy's Coffeehouse.  If you guys can get endorsements for such to change building signs, or even building layouts - an actual McDonald's restaurant building instead of just a generic building or storefront - then go for it.  I, at least, have no objections.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2013, 05:47:26 PM »
If I have my druthers, ads as a revenue source in MMOs will evolve to include both "product placement" at its simplest (the car on the street might just be the newest model from Chevy; Doctor Dogooder might be drinking Tab when he gives you your mission) unobtrusive form, but should also have some level of interactivity that is voluntary on the players' part. See an ad for some real-world company on a billboard? Maybe if you click on it, you'll get a neat little costume bit paid for by that sponsor as part of their ad campaign. Or maybe a piece of base decoration. There's a company called "blinds.com" that sells its blinds online, and prides itself on its system for interacting with customers over the phone and helping them plan window dressings through video-phone; if they were a sponsor, they might have a mini-mission or ap for doing just that to put a special "blinds" item into your living space. If you're really interested in the product, we might have an optional interaction that would give you a discount code to use on their site.

To do this, different types of placement would have to be scaled in cost, depending on the amount of art resources that have to be devoted to adding the product to the game. Changing a billboard merely requires adding a texture to the library of available billboard sheets and telling the game client to add it to rotation when populating billboards. Making a random car on the street be the 2014 Mustang would require a mesh for the object, a skin for its appearance, and animation if it moves (wheels, headlights, etc.). If a contact is already animated drinking something from a can in their hand, making the drink a specific product is another 'apply a texture' problem, but if they're just standing there, then you need to add the can and change the character's animation.

But running down the street and coming across a starbucks billboard or store front, first time I might actually stop and look and say, "well that's cool." and then keep it moving. I wont go out or get the sudden urge for starbucks but I wont quit playing either.

Although some of the more entertaining things about the environment in CoH were the parodies of real businesses in the signage, like the 'Infront Steakhouse' chain.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2013, 06:17:50 PM »
Any form of product placement or real world business tie in of any kind pollutes gaming and degrades gamers.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2013, 07:04:58 PM »
Any form of product placement or real world business tie in of any kind pollutes gaming and degrades gamers.
That's needlessly hard-line and extremist.  You may feel that way, but many others clearly do not.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2013, 07:33:02 PM »
To do this, different types of placement would have to be scaled in cost, depending on the amount of art resources that have to be devoted to adding the product to the game. Changing a billboard merely requires adding a texture to the library of available billboard sheets and telling the game client to add it to rotation when populating billboards. Making a random car on the street be the 2014 Mustang would require a mesh for the object, a skin for its appearance, and animation if it moves (wheels, headlights, etc.). If a contact is already animated drinking something from a can in their hand, making the drink a specific product is another 'apply a texture' problem, but if they're just standing there, then you need to add the can and change the character's animation.
Agreed. Moreover, because the key to advertising effectiveness in a virtual city will be the same as in a real city, prices for ad space on different billboards with different visibility should be different. Ideally, a "new car" will often just be a texture issue, as well. It's a different brand logo.

When they want an honest-to-goodness representation of a new model car, then yes, that will cost a little more. (On the other hand, it becomes part of our library of vehicles with which to populate the street, even after we strip off the logos, unless they're paying for exclusivity in their function.) It may be somewhat simpler than a full-fledged build of a new model for many if it's just a body overlay, like a costume on the base "car" character model that has functional wheels, etc.)

Mercifully, as well, the nature of animations and typical rigging of models means that as long as we have a "take a drink" emote, having any given contact do so will not be problematic, so it remains a texture issue.

Although some of the more entertaining things about the environment in CoH were the parodies of real businesses in the signage, like the 'Infront Steakhouse' chain.
Oh, I know. But having real-world ones won't hurt. Heck, I would not be surprised if some sponsors wanted a parody of their store in the game, because in a lot of ways, making the player stop and think "what's that a parody of...?" will cause them to give MORE thought to the real-world company or product than just seeing the product.

Though it might take some study to see if that's the case in reality.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2013, 07:55:00 PM »
That's needlessly hard-line and extremist.  You may feel that way, but many others clearly do not.

A stand needs to be made against the corporatism corrupting gaming - the community already lost its first home to it, so when we're building its new home, we're obviously going to be keeping it a corporatism-free space.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2013, 08:10:06 PM »
The poison isn't in the idea of trading value for value; it's in the failure to grasp that the customer is valuable because they are receiving value. In the case of CoH's closure, barring unknowns that make it truly impossible for NCSoft to make a profit despite the revenue stream, it's a case of the company making a bad business decision.

Blaming the concept of business for participants' bad decisions is akin to blaming the concept of baseball for a Major League team manager's putting a blind man in as the fourth in his batting order.

All money is, in the end, is a measure of how much perceived value you have provided to others, as calculated by those others. There will always be shysters and "clever" men who will find ways to distort this, tricking people out of it or otherwise distorting this measure, but it always corrects itself in time. What MWM is striving to do is to design a new model and method of doing business in this particular industry, with an eye towards providing the greatest possible value and being rewarded by becoming big enough to demonstrate that the current "standard" methods are less optimal. In so doing, we provide our community with exactly what it wants and we create a new standard that serves its customers better, improving things for customers and corporations (who follow the new, improved model) alike. (At least, that's our hope. I don't have a crystal ball or anything. I just happen to believe we're on the right track, in this regard.)

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2013, 08:12:16 PM »
An MMO is a digital world, not a digital store or digital marketplace.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2013, 08:14:03 PM »
A stand needs to be made against the corporatism corrupting gaming - the community already lost its first home to it, so when we're building its new home, we're obviously going to be keeping it a corporatism-free space.
You mean when you're building your successor game that's what you're going to do - it doesn't sound like CoT is going that route, and I for one am glad.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2013, 09:05:34 PM »
I can agree with GG to a point.
Advertising is not entirely evil and, if used in moderation in the correct spaces, it can be a very effective way of making money. I'll come back to this in a moment.
 
Having said that, I fully agree that advertising real world businesses in a virtual world is something I am not comfortable with.
When you build a game world, assuming you have done it correctly, you have a living, breathing, cohesive whole with it's own institutions and assumptions. An MMO, or most any other RPG game is a story and, as the game's creator, you want the player to become part of that story. The more immersed the player is, the more they care about progressing in the game and, the more they care about progressing, the more they'll want to play the game which is exactly what you want from the creator's point of view.
The presence of real world symbology (advertising, for example) shatters a players sense of immersion in the story in the same way that watching a film on broadcast television is not the same experience as watching the same film in a theater setting.
Now, if you have based your fictional world on the real world (in the style of GTA or CoD or others) then seeing a Coca Cola sign or a familiar set of Golden Arches will actually feel 'right' and the player will accept them. The only way for this to work well is if you've built these into the game right from the very beginning. If you try to retrofit them, they will look 'wrong' and it will distract from gameplay. We saw examples of this in our own beloved Paragon City. Ads for Zombcare, and The Clanket, and Pinnacle apartments, and Royal's Books all fit in but the short lived adds for Nike and Burger King just clashed.
 
There is a way to make this work (told you I'd come back to this.) If your game has a seperate marketplace feature (like PWE's zen store or the Paragon Marketplace) then that is a place where you can allow for as much advertising as you wish. True, this does violate the 'maximum exposure' rule of advertising, but it maintains game integrity. It's bad enough knowing that there is some corporate entitity behing the game just trying to take my money from me (looking at you Sony) without having that fact getting in the way of the story.
 
As always, my opinion. Make of it what you will.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2013, 09:11:51 PM »
That is the beauty of freedom to control the fruits of one's labor: you can use them and direct them as you wish, and let the objective reality of how people interact with them dictate what is the optimal method.

...apologies for all the "optimal" talk; Computational Intelligence techniques lead me to think in those terms. All it really means is "what works the best? Find and do that."



JWBullfrog, I agree that you have to keep things fitting the feel of your world. The beautiful thing about our chosen genre: modern-day setting that is "just like the real world, except with superheroes," is that "the familiar golden arches" would, in fact, feel pretty natural. Nobody objects to seeing real-world car brands in the Avengers or Transformers. They don't break you out of the immersion.

You're also right that you need to build it in from the get-go, because you can't have it suddenly "change" on people. The level of realism and connection to real-world assumptions is critical to get right from the beginning.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2013, 09:33:20 PM »
Exactly so.
 
If the ideas are there from the beginning then, well, they were there from the beginning and they're an organic part of the narrative. You accept them and move forward but, if you've never had them there before (and here we come back to the idea of inorganic idea of lockboxes) it makes feels awkward.
 
As long as you have a plausible reason for those particular advertisers or that particular game function, then all is well. The concern is finding that balance.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2013, 11:34:56 PM »
And how do you handle situation when an advertiser becomes toxic, as in the case of Chick-fil-A, which was mentioned earlier? Do you remove their store models from the game, and replace them with new ones, or just retexture the existing ones?
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2013, 11:48:15 PM »
If you have a generic enough 'storefront' you can simply re-texture it. A billboard can be treated the same way. Besides, it happens enough in real life that one shop becoming another is acceptable. Yes, I know I'm using real life to justify continuity in a fictional world but the concept is valid.
 
Also, there's the idea of replacing an advertiser once their contracted time limit has expired. Even if they did not become a problem child, they probably won't be there forever and you'd be facing the same situation. 
 
The point is, replacing advertisers isn't that big of a problem. A little foresight solves the problem before you have it.
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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2013, 12:34:41 AM »
Well in my earlier post I did say some may not see it as all good especially in a game or games that is supposedly supposed to be anti-corporation but running through is full of corporate sponsors and ads. 

Like I said, I wouldn't mind it, and wouldn't think too much of it, but there are downsides to it. It can be viewed as saying "We don't want to be part of the meat industry because it's cruel to animals and want to show that a food industry not revolving around meat can survive." yet the website is full of meat industry ads and sponsorship even if non-intrusive. 

I say go for it bit by bit OR, I have another idea. How about ads from other indie non-major corporate companies? Like someone in the area know about some indie, say, restaurant owned by some family that is friendly and work outside the corporate world in the game? That way the message is not lost while at the same time, supporting other indie companies like the ones that are building the game projects.

JanessaVR

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2013, 12:59:49 AM »
I'd be more inclined to say the opposite - go for the big corporations.  Not only are they more recognizable for what you'd likely see "walking down the street," but they have deeper pockets, too.   ;)

Having billboards showing ads for the latest movies and storefront signs (possibly with custom storefronts, if they want to pay for it) for fast food chains and such would certainly help the bottom line, and I'm all for that.  The more $ we throw at the devs, the longer the game will last and the more they can do for us.

I've said it before - mindless, knee-jerk anti-corporatism does no one any good.


Arcana

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2013, 02:12:27 AM »
I think the "evil" of in-game advertising is partially related to the necessity of the ad revenue.  If the ad revenue is part of your business model, you are compelled to compromise between the integrity of the advertisement content and the potential revenue.  If the in-game advertising is a distinct optional feature that you are willing and able to walk away from, it opens the door to in-game advertising only during the happy happenstance when what the advertiser wants to add to the game is exactly the same thing the content developer wants to add to the game.

So if you want more realism in the automobile models in your game but are worried about intellectual property rights, then using in-game advertising to allow car manufacturers to in-game advertise by making in-game cars exactly like their product lines is a happy coincidence: it means the auto manufacturers get to product place and you don't have to use weird generic car-like-substances driving around the city to avoid getting sued.  Everybody wins.

Adding *voluntary* interactivity as some have mentioned in this thread would be entirely reasonable.  Click on a car door and you'd enter the car like a mission door and you'd be able to see the interior of the car, play with the dash, maybe watch a car commercial on the navigation console.  Purely voluntary, and completely separate from the rest of the game: no one needs to know its there except for the players that want it.

The most interesting aspect of this potentially is the case where the notion of the viral marketing campaign is turned upside down.  Imagine if instead of being asked to play an ARG in real life, they were asked to play one within the MMO.  So lets say McDonalds had an add campaign where if an MMO player visited every McDonalds within the MMO worldspace and punched some virtual ticket, they would get a coupon for a free Big Mac or something.  By encouraging corporate sponsors to treat the MMO virtual world as a real world and encourage interactivity within that world, whole marketing efforts could theoretically be happening all the time but only exposed to the players that cared about then and were willing to participate.  For all other players, it would not really be visible at all: it would be happening mostly behind closed (virtual) doors.  It would be like badge collecting, but for Frappuchinos and french fries instead of accolades.

Arcana

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2013, 02:14:06 AM »
A stand needs to be made against the corporatism corrupting gaming - the community already lost its first home to it, so when we're building its new home, we're obviously going to be keeping it a corporatism-free space.
Mostly, my understanding is we lost the game to petty interpersonal politics, but we currently do not have the option of having successor MMOs written by robots.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2013, 02:39:57 AM »
I'd be more inclined to say the opposite - go for the big corporations.  Not only are they more recognizable for what you'd likely see "walking down the street," but they have deeper pockets, too.   ;)

Having billboards showing ads for the latest movies and storefront signs (possibly with custom storefronts, if they want to pay for it) for fast food chains and such would certainly help the bottom line, and I'm all for that.  The more $ we throw at the devs, the longer the game will last and the more they can do for us.

I've said it before - mindless, knee-jerk anti-corporatism does no one any good.
truth.

And that is part of the reason I wasn't too keen on the anti-corporate aspect to begin with or "getting back" at corporations or certain corporation. Because when one pigeon hole themselves as anti-corporation yet go to corporations for cash, it can seem "odd".

- Always leave doors you might need later open. While there is a time to take a hard line stance, sometimes it's best to simply leave the option open, especially when starting up a business. Because there might come a time when those "evil" corporations might be needed. Such as in game ad for money. When taking an anti-corporate stance yet want to add corporate ad into the game that is supposed to be free of corporate influence, it can lead to odd crossroads. Like, are they really anti-corporate or only anti-corporate when it suit their needs and pro-corporate when it suit their needs.

Either way in the end especially in the business world one must do what they must do. And sometimes it's best to stay the middle ground until it's clear. Jump to one side too early, and may seem like back tracking when ya need the other side. But of course many here starting the business is new and those were emotional times and some may have said some things a bit in haste and chose anti-corporation stance too early. Me personally, I wont eat their lunch for it. It happens and most of probably been there at one point or another. But be prepared for quizzical looks and questions from people, maybe a few maybe a lot, that view in game ads as the same thing as laying in bed with corporations that is stated to be against.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:52:08 AM by JaguarX »

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2013, 12:32:24 PM »
I, personally - and to my (mostly first-hand) knowledge, the Phoenix Project (and MWM) as an organization - have never been "anti-corporate." I know there are sentiments that run the gamut out there, and there is a lot of concern about making sure we are not an "evil corporation," but it is definitely not a helpful position to assume that "evil" is an essential part of "corporation."

As has been said, we lost CoH to bad business decisions and (potentially) interpersonal politics at the highest level. These kinds of things could have cost us our game even if the organization that owned it had been totally non-profit and anti-corporate, itself. Politics happen. Now, there may well have been a profit motivated aspect, but to the best of our external examination (and here, I use "our" to encompass the whole Save CoH movement) can confirm, it looks like there has to have been either a gross miscalculation as to the profits that could have been made, or there must have been somebody who wanted it gone and used "only making us millions rather than tens of millions" as the "business" reason. This is why we got the bit about not fitting with their company direction (or whatever it was): the decision was made based on something the decision-makers wanted more than just profit.

MWM will never, unless its leadership changes drastically, be "anti-corporate." We will always (again, unless its leadership changes drastically) be "pro-community," however. While we are more than happy to do business with corporations (and even non-corporate businesses) - large and small - that will help us make a sustainable and profitable product, our primary purpose is to build and sustain this game for this community. We view any business partners we obtain as complicit in that effort, and if they prove to be detrimental to doing so, we will end that relationship. However, I firmly agree with those who've commented on how optionally interactive, product-placement and "real-world simulating" ads (e.g. billboards, storefronts) are beneficial to ALL involved: they improve the immersiveness of our game world; they provide our sponsors with a service they value enough to pay us; the right implementation can help us with my personal goal of getting ways for 100% free players to gain access to paid-only aspects of the game; any income that doesn't come directly from the players means less pressure to try to charge for things we might prefer not to; and the interactive nature of the optional aspects can increase the RL QoL of our players who find something they DO want. Heck, in a lot of ways, we'd be getting sponsors to pay us to produce more content for the game. And more content is always good, as long as it fits with the feel and theme of the game. (And obviously, we intend to be very dedicated to enforcing that.)

As for changing out store-fronts, that's something we would have to be able to do, of course. If McDonald's stops paying us for the storefronts in the game, we want to be able to let Wendy's move in if they're going to pay for the privilege. IT can be more involved, programmatically, than changing out a billboard or a flyer or a bus-side ad, but that's why packages that include real-estate in game will cost sponsors more to have in place. They also will increase immersiveness and provide better options for optional interactive content that the sponsor could have us put together, making it still worth it, of course.

dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2013, 02:03:48 PM »
OK, if this has been addressed, I apologize.

Stepping back from the issue of whether or not or who, what about why, form the advertiser's perspective. They are looking at "bang for buck." The huge events, like the major awards shows or the play-off and championship sports games, can charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for ad time, often getting the newest and most creative ads, those becoming as much of an event as the show itself. (I, for one, only watch the Super Bowl for the food and ads)

Also, there's the question of regionalism. Everyone here, regardless of where in the world they live, can get to a McDonald's. Maybe you don't have 12 within easy driving distance, but there's one nearby. Everyone here sees Fords driving around. Maybe it's more Kas and Fiestas than Tauruses and Fusions/Mondeos, and the pickups may be a bit of a rarity, but the blue oval is at least recognizable. But, are those big companies even going to spend the money?

Facebook lives on ads, but an advertiser knows their ad has the potential to hit millions of eyes. Regional businesses, like grocery stores or smaller fast food chains, are less likely to take a chance in a game that may only have a dozen players in their market. Whether or not we believe that ads have a place in the game really ends up being a decision for the advertiser. Not that this would override the development team, but it certainly could make the whole debate moot when the advertisers don't see a medium with only a few thousand viewers/players as being worth the risk.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2013, 03:42:40 PM »
That is one reason we want to get the audience as large as possible.

You raise a very valid point about regional advertisers. This merits some thought; if there's a way to accommodate them, that could be very cool.

LydiaFrost

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2013, 05:19:33 PM »
Perhaps some car manufactures could send you 3D models of their cars complete with engine sound to use in the game. It wouldnt hurt to ask, and it gives you more time for other 3D models.
Make the car targetable and have it display specs like Model, Speed  and Fuel consumption and an extended info with could be a complete flyer. They just have to live with it,m that villains may blow up Porsches for their Porsche Badge ;)

I also liked the Idea of making the inside of the car accessible like a mission door. Let the companies do some of that work for you. let them add to your/our game.

The Time you safe for that models is a reward itself.

Lydia Frost MM

JanessaVR

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2013, 05:29:59 PM »
I, personally - and to my (mostly first-hand) knowledge, the Phoenix Project (and MWM) as an organization - have never been "anti-corporate." I know there are sentiments that run the gamut out there, and there is a lot of concern about making sure we are not an "evil corporation," but it is definitely not a helpful position to assume that "evil" is an essential part of "corporation."
Um...my post at least was directed at GG, not you.  I'm in full support of your stance.  I had thought that was pretty clear.

srmalloy

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2013, 05:47:08 PM »
You raise a very valid point about regional advertisers. This merits some thought; if there's a way to accommodate them, that could be very cool.

That one should be easy enough, at least from the player side; a player would have the option, in their account configuration, to enter their location (i.e., 'Los Angeles, CA', or 'Birmingham, AL', etc.); if they have a location on record, they would have the opt-in choice of allowing their account location information to be used for the purposes of adding region-specific ads to the selection of possible ads in various placements (billboards, the sides of buses, the back wall of bus stops, etc.).

A thought struck me as I was writing the paragraph above, remembering the way that the buses and trolleys here get redecorated each year before and during the SDCC, one of the other sources of advertising that it might be worth looking into, rather than huge corporationss like McDonald's or Nike, are conventions (i.e., a bus rolling down the street with a banner ad for the New York Comic-Con, GenCon, KatsuCon, or Dragon Con on the side) and other gaming companies (i.e., a billboard advertising The Secret World or EVE Online, or even non-MMOs like Angry Birds ).  Or, branching back to the more big-time commercial products, thematically-relevant movies (i.e., ads for 'Avengers XIV', 'Superman XXIX', or 'Dark Knight LXIV: This is the Last One, We Really Mean it This Time').

Perhaps some car manufactures could send you 3D models of their cars complete with engine sound to use in the game. It wouldnt hurt to ask, and it gives you more time for other 3D models. Make the car targetable and have it display specs like Model, Speed  and Fuel consumption and an extended info with could be a complete flyer. They just have to live with it,m that villains may blow up Porsches for their Porsche Badge ;)

Rather than make all of that come up in-game, it should be possible to make an item clickable with an option to either put a link into the clipboard or spawn a handler for the link to open the link in a browser, so that someone could jump to the corporate website to see their full advertising presentation for the project -- which would give them a readily-measurable metric for the value they would be getting by counting the hits they got from the in-game links, and the advertiser gets to control what the full presentation looks like, instead of just what fits inside the game.

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2013, 06:03:05 PM »

Rather than make all of that come up in-game, it should be possible to make an item clickable with an option to either put a link into the clipboard or spawn a handler for the link to open the link in a browser, so that someone could jump to the corporate website to see their full advertising presentation for the project -- which would give them a readily-measurable metric for the value they would be getting by counting the hits they got from the in-game links, and the advertiser gets to control what the full presentation looks like, instead of just what fits inside the game.

I see an issue of 'can it be done' vs. 'should it be done' from the programmer's point of view. As I understand it (considering that I never got the hang of programming in BASIC) writing the code for an MMO is hard enough to get right with just the in game issues to worry about. Adding on bits to interface with elements from outside the game cannot be easy.
 
In any case, I have no real problem with advertising as long as it is done well, discreetly, and(preferably) with an option to ignore it entirely.
 
As always, my opinion. Take it for what you will.
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Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2013, 06:28:37 PM »
JanessaVR, I appreciate that and am sorry if I seemed to be arguing with you. I was responding to it to make sure there is no confusion; we have enough occasional mis-messaging due to just the sheer number of people and projects that making sure MWM's position (as I understand it) is clear is important to me. (It's a pathology of mine: I hate being misunderstood, even by accident. This leads me to sometimes (often) be pedantic and to over-explain. ^^; )


I see an issue of 'can it be done' vs. 'should it be done' from the programmer's point of view. As I understand it (considering that I never got the hang of programming in BASIC) writing the code for an MMO is hard enough to get right with just the in game issues to worry about. Adding on bits to interface with elements from outside the game cannot be easy.
 
In any case, I have no real problem with advertising as long as it is done well, discreetly, and(preferably) with an option to ignore it entirely.
 
As always, my opinion. Take it for what you will.
Fortunately, we already are planning for some out-of-engine interfacing. The chat client is meant to be accessible alone or from in-game. So some of those techniques should already be in our toolkit. That said, you're right about it being potentially challenging.


While it won't help with those who use proxies for privacy's sake (though how they're gaming on a connection with the lag issues that can induce is a question in and of itself), we can technically use IP addresses to locate people to at least within a zip code, I think. I know this is already done invisibly on a number of web sites to personalize them for regional things, such as choosing default display language and the like. Now, I could be wrong about this capability.

...though we also will already have billing addresses, which we could use to instantiate a little bit of regional awareness. On the privacy and security side, however, there are likely reasons to try to keep these two things as distinct as humanly possible, so using them thusly may also run into issues.


The real problem with it is storefronts. If there are events happening at a building, having team-mates in St. Louis want to go to the Dierberg's while those on Seasame Street want to go to Hooper's Store and have them both be in the same location could create confusion and, worse, break immersion.

Having regionals on billboards and flyers, though, could be feasible with minimal risk of immersion-breaking. A subtle way to tie it back together could be to link up the "regionals" of those who are on a team together so they have a larger list through which their regional ads rotate, but so all of them see the same ad in the same place.

LydiaFrost

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »

Arcana

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2013, 02:09:21 AM »
Another possibility occurred to me yesterday.  Rather than seeking out potential advertisers, I wonder if its practical for an MMO operating team to join a pre-existing affiliate program.  So suppose City of Titans or one of the other successor project games became (for example) an Amazon Affiliate.  That team could create its own advertisements in whatever way they wanted to in a way that would fit with the game environment.  They would then make referral income on any purchase a player made through those ads.

I'm not saying Amazon's corporate affiliate program is the best or even workable: I'm not an expert on such programs.  But there might be certain advantages to somehow joining an existing advertisement program rather than signing up individual advertisers directly: you have full control over what gets advertised and what doesn't, and you don't have to convince advertisers to pay for advertising they aren't sure will pay off for them.  The MMO takes all the risk (in terms of spending its own resources to create the ads) but keeps all of the control (they advertise what they want, how they want, when they want, and they can discontinue at any time).

Of course, the technical challenge is supporting the click-thru mechanisms that make this work in as non-intrusive a manner as possible.  Its potentially doable: allowing players to "acknowledge" an in-game advertisement in some way, but instead of breaking them out of the game the game sends them a "coupon" via email (or in-game mail) they can later use to finalize the click-thru and make (or not make) the purchase.  Ads become things you "collect" and then later use, and if you use the game gets a share of the revenue.

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2013, 02:11:58 PM »
Oh, I like that idea. If we build our own metric-tracking system, it would also allow us to fill our unsold ad space and use the metrics generated from that to sell space to larger sponsors. It is not an either-or, but rather it's yet another way we could potentially boot strap into demonstrating the success of our model.

The "click to put a coupon in a tab of your inventory" concept is one I had thought of, as well, and one I really like, because it allows people to check it at their convenience while making getting to it part of the game. And if they don't care about it, they can ignore or flush it. This, too, is a helpful metric: who collects but doesn't use.

srmalloy

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2013, 07:04:11 PM »
The "click to put a coupon in a tab of your inventory" concept is one I had thought of, as well, and one I really like, because it allows people to check it at their convenience while making getting to it part of the game. And if they don't care about it, they can ignore or flush it. This, too, is a helpful metric: who collects but doesn't use.

With the stated intention of having your characters be visible outside the game, this would appear to be a good solution; you go to the website where you can view your characters, and one of the information blocks on the page contains all of the ad-link cards that you saved during play, and you can visit the referenced link or delete them entirely. It's more elegant and less intrusive than either of the ad-link ideas I had.

Segev

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Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2013, 07:21:36 PM »
It will need to intrude at least once, but hopefully that will be not too problematic. Basically at the first time you get one, you get a short tutorial (or at least a dialog asking you if you'd like to see one) explaining what they are, where to find them, and how to use them.