Author Topic: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win  (Read 18331 times)

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 05:42:33 AM »
In Champions Online....

The anniversary lockboxes are the last i'm going to bother opening, even though 90% of the time I only use keys I'd purchased on the auction house in CO.  It's tiring to lose globals in the game and not get enough in return, it really is a gamble.  I notice lockboxes really just damaged the economy; prices plummeted for mods and questionite/zen rates skyrocketed.  They are higher then I'd ever seen them before, it's kinda sad.  And annoyingly it does make it somewhat pay to win.  Some builds cannot be done so well without say legion gear of avoidence and the devs are wanting to NERF dodge/avoidence now, making some builds unviable(anything but invuln/regen/defiance basically).

If that changed, i'd be done with CO.  I'm tired of seeing the only form of difficulty being "keeping ahead of the nerf bat", which is fake difficulty and it's annoying as hell.  I certainly worry CO is turning into pay to win, for all those reasons.  And becoming another holy trinity grind.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

GuyPerfect

  • Mary Poppins
  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,740
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 02:08:37 PM »
My game was never effected by whether or not somebody else decided to pay real money.

You must have been one of those people who used he SFX mod for Demon Summoning. Dear lord those things are obnoxious.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 06:11:55 PM »
I absolutely love lockboxes in PWE games...
 
They drop all the time and they're worth a few coppers every time. It's a steady source of income.
 
If I remember correctly, our own City had it's share of people shouting that it was 'Pay to Win.' Over the seven years I had in game, I could never see it. My game was never effected by whether or not somebody else decided to pay real money.
 
PWG games (which I do play regularly) are not all that different. It is entirely possible to ignore lockboxes and still have a satisfying game play experience using only the items that can be found in game.
 
In fact, I consider it a challenge.
 
Anyone, no matter how horrible a player they are, can beat a game by spending money. This is a lesson I learned playing M:TG may years ago. But, like in that game, I thought it was more fun to use whatever fell into my hands and figure out a way to win.

Yeah, lockboxes are ok. When I decide to open a few, I may not get the best stuff but I'm usually able to make a pretty penny off each opening, and that's selling the stuff way below the cheapest listed prices.

In COX, many days I had Pacing of the Turtle days being my best drops while watching people left and right get purple after purple. I couldnt even sell those things by the ton to get enough to buy six SOs. So much for playing the market to make money. Putting in the same amount of work while getting way less is a little discouraging. Especially when people automatically say, Well, play this and that. When I already did ten times over and still came up empty handed.

Sometimes I wished that COX had a little bit more "pay to win" so that luck wasnt everything. Accuracy-luck Defense-luck good drops-luck scrapper crits-luck controller extra hold mag-luck. I would have payed some money in areas when my luck failed often and all the while it would put extra cash in the income block for COX.

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 08:16:38 PM »
In-game ads are also a no-no.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

srmalloy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 03:34:47 PM »
In-game ads are also a no-no.

It depends on how they're implemented; the abortive attempt to sell ad space in CoH, where the ads would appear on the billboards around the city, was a low-obtrusiveness implementation spoiled by the poor randomization of the ads -- for example, I recall seeing a stack of three billboards in Port Oakes all with the same ad on them -- something that would rarely be done by commercial advertisers, preferring to spread their placement out to get face time with a wider range of people. But people expect to see advertising on billboards; seeing a commercial advertisement on a billboard in-game isn't as intrusive as having ads on loading screens, in the character creator, etc. -- stuck into the game where there's no reason for an ad (either game-world or commercial) to be there except to shove the product in your face is disruptive. The less a game world resembles our current environment, the more intrusive ads during play will appear, which limits the type of game that can have embedded ads without breaking immersion. You wouldn't bat an eye at driving past a billboard for Coca-Cola in GTA V, for example, while the same ad on the wall of a building on Alderaan would look horribly out of place.




Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2013, 11:50:25 PM »
The CoH ones still didn't mesh with the art style of the game world though.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2013, 12:13:52 AM »
But people expect to see advertising on billboards; seeing a commercial advertisement on a billboard in-game isn't as intrusive as having ads on loading screens, in the character creator, etc. -- stuck into the game where there's no reason for an ad (either game-world or commercial) to be there except to shove the product in your face is disruptive.
I wouldn't mind or even probably pay too much attention to ads on billboards.

But having ads in loading screens character creators and such, would be highly annoying. Go to youtube, 15 sec ad for a 1 minute video. watch tv, commercials every 8-10 mins, radio commercials. Me personally I don't need an ad telling me what I will like. If I like it I don't need ad to buy it. If I don't like it don't matter how many ads in the world I aint going to buy it. They say they have ads on youtube now because otherwise they would have to charge. Hell, I rather pay monthly fee for youtube then deal with those ads. It wouldn't be so bad if the ads were varied but seeing the same ad over and over and over every video gets highly annoying and thus I don't even really use youtube anymore.

Sometimes, a peaceful fun environment free from corporate world trying to make a dollar is nice. In the real world, meh, have to deal with it. In game, I aint paying to have pop up ads, time or money. I rather watch a blank loading screen. I feel those ads should be paying me for that time especially if it's a product I'm not interested in the first place.

But if ads is the only way, what can you do? Go for it. It's a shrinking world for advertisement. Hell when I start my car I'm almost expect it to play some sponsored ad from Viagra or something before the car starts.

Kyriani

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2013, 04:22:03 AM »
I honestly love how COH tried to do ads. I took advantage of that system to make my client more like real life. I put it in advertising targeted specifically at myself just to make the world feel more real to me. Here's an example of my client with my modifications:






I would find such integration of real world advertising in this manner non-intrusive and actually adding ambiance to the game world.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2013, 04:44:44 AM »
I honestly love how COH tried to do ads. I took advantage of that system to make my client more like real life. I put it in advertising targeted specifically at myself just to make the world feel more real to me. Here's an example of my client with my modifications:






I would find such integration of real world advertising in this manner non-intrusive and actually adding ambiance to the game world.

Yeah I could be done with that.

All we need now is a radio mission that says "The Skulls just robbed a KFC. Stop them before they get away."

JanessaVR

  • New Efforts # 12,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 815
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2013, 12:17:33 AM »
Actually, that's pretty darn cool.   8)

So is that mish idea.

MWRuger

  • New Efforts # 1,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,117
  • The Devil is in the details! Quick! Get him out!
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2013, 05:27:58 AM »
Yeah, Those are pretty cool. To be honest, I never noticed the Ads. At all. Ever. Not very effective for me I guess.
AKA TheDevilYouKnow
Return of CoH - Oh My God! It looks like it can happen!

OzonePrime

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 376
  • Never Give Up! Never Surrender!
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2013, 12:23:56 PM »
Very cool! :)

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2013, 03:08:40 PM »
sorry I just cant take jack seriously anymore, he and pwe is the reason champions is how it is now. He has no qualms about trashing sto as well. He just does not understand sto is the top rated game that cryptic made aside from city of.
Also gg, you may think lockboxes is unethical but did you have a issue with them when city of had the packs? also a lot of games seem to be going down the road nowadays. 
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Twisted Toon

  • New Efforts # 13,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 830
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2013, 05:47:27 PM »
Also gg, you may think lockboxes is unethical but did you have a issue with them when city of had the packs? also a lot of games seem to be going down the road nowadays.
I think the difference between the lock boxes in STO (and other games) and the packs in COH is that the lock boxes drop as loot from defeated enemies (and take up inventory space) that you then have to go buy a magic, one use, key to unlock. The Packs you just plain bought at the store, you didn't get them from a group of "Skulz" then have to buy the pair of magic, one use, scissors to open the pack with.

My opinion, of course.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

Angel Phoenix77

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
  • I am Phoenix !!
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2013, 07:55:07 PM »
I think the difference between the lock boxes in STO (and other games) and the packs in COH is that the lock boxes drop as loot from defeated enemies (and take up inventory space) that you then have to go buy a magic, one use, key to unlock. The Packs you just plain bought at the store, you didn't get them from a group of "Skulz" then have to buy the pair of magic, one use, scissors to open the pack with.

My opinion, of course.
that is very true, in fact I didn't think about city of you had to buy them sense they don't drop from enemies 
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

General Idiot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2013, 12:27:57 AM »
Also the ones in CoH had actually worthwhile stuff in them almost always rather than the tiny chances most games have. Sure, they had the standard xp/influence boosters that every game puts in such things but they also had the archetype enhancements in almost every pack and the costume set again in almost every pack until you had them all. So when I opened one I never felt like I'd just wasted my money.

Kyriani

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2013, 12:37:27 AM »
I was never unhappy opening a pack in COH... ever. I may not have gotten what I wanted but I always got something valuable. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Even if it was only merits which could be used for valuable recipes.

Lockboxes suck because they are a scam. They more likely than not have crap in them and the idea is to get you to buy lots of keys to keep opening them in the hopes that you'll open the once in a blue moon "not crap" box. It's a scam.

The superpacks were nothing like them. You ALWAYS got something useful from a pack. Even if it was only merits.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2013, 01:30:31 AM »
well I think with each lockbox ya got something too that could be spent to buy items, just like merits.

healix

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,695
  • Every good friend was once a stranger
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2013, 02:11:33 AM »
I was never unhappy opening a pack in COH... ever. I may not have gotten what I wanted but I always got something valuable. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Even if it was only merits which could be used for valuable recipes.

Lockboxes suck because they are a scam. They more likely than not have crap in them and the idea is to get you to buy lots of keys to keep opening them in the hopes that you'll open the once in a blue moon "not crap" box. It's a scam.

The superpacks were nothing like them. You ALWAYS got something useful from a pack. Even if it was only merits.

I am with you on this one, Kyriani. I bought every single pack for both of my accounts, and never regretted it.
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Jack Emmert to speak on free-to-play vs. pay-to-win
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2013, 07:19:24 PM »
Yeah, Those are pretty cool. To be honest, I never noticed the Ads. At all. Ever. Not very effective for me I guess.
If I have my druthers, ads as a revenue source in MMOs will evolve to include both "product placement" at its simplest (the car on the street might just be the newest model from Chevy; Doctor Dogooder might be drinking Tab when he gives you your mission) unobtrusive form, but should also have some level of interactivity that is voluntary on the players' part. See an ad for some real-world company on a billboard? Maybe if you click on it, you'll get a neat little costume bit paid for by that sponsor as part of their ad campaign. Or maybe a piece of base decoration. There's a company called "blinds.com" that sells its blinds online, and prides itself on its system for interacting with customers over the phone and helping them plan window dressings through video-phone; if they were a sponsor, they might have a mini-mission or ap for doing just that to put a special "blinds" item into your living space. If you're really interested in the product, we might have an optional interaction that would give you a discount code to use on their site.

Sponsors would thus be paying to add bits of content to the game, and would be doing it only as obtrusively as players wanted to interact with. Look around your house and at the clothes people wear on the street; logos are everywhere. Today's fashions tend towards making them stylish enough to blend in, but there are a few who bling them up like NASCAR drivers; both should be options, and ways to help make the game profitable enough to sustain itself while minimizing real costs to our players.

A lot of the problem CoH had was their model for paying for ads. We can do a combination of mechanisms, from modeling billboard ad prices on how it's done IRL (location location location!) to having optional interaction with the players (which helps the sponsor get a feel for how much people are paying attention to their ads, and makes sponsorship with us all the more attractive), to facilitating connecting people who WANT something with the supplier (convenience for all involved when the advertising works).

Above all, it must NOT be obtrusive any more than it is IRL. Maybe even less so. MMOs are a medium unique from TV, print, or RL locations or radio, but they have elements of each, and any use of ads in MMOs needs to recognize this. Ads in MMOs need to use the power of being an interactive medium while avoiding being an obnoxious interruption of the play experience. Like TV and movies, product placement can help. Like radio spots, interaction to get a discount code can help sponsors track the effectiveness of their ads. Like billboards and other public locations, ads can be charged for by their placement in the world. The interactivity can be made into an easter egg hunt of its own, and get sponsors still more information while not getting in the way of the game play for the player. MMOs are a gathering place with some unique and powerful tools to enhance the interaction of those gathered there. They're a virtual town square combined with a theme park and a hangout joint.


Tl;dr: Ads need not be obnoxious, and most of the innovation in making them work goes into both enhancing the play experience (rather than detracting from it) while making it MORE attractive as a metric-provider to sponsors without intruding on the players in ways they dislike. Loads of purely optional interaction combined with low-level everyday presence akin to what one sees in the real world.