Atlas Park 33

[Golden Girl]

So on the anniversary date of the creation of Atlas Park 33 with the Unity Rally on Virtue server, there's not thread dedicated to it yet?

[eabrace]

I would have figured the "Observance" and "On the Actual Anniversary" threads were already serving the purpose.

[Golden Girl]

Those were just August 31st anniversary - AP33 should have something for itself

[Aggelakis]

With this whole forum being a dedication to the efforts and a refuge for the shattered community, we don't really *need* a singular thread. Additionally, most folks in the shutdown threads are also talking about the rally, and also the actual sunset itself. The whole time period is one connected piece for a lot of people so I personally don't see a need for a dedicated thread.

[Golden Girl]

It was a pretty unique part of the whole shutdown story, though - it got us a lot of publicity for the cause.

[MaidMercury]

Was that the showing of support for 'Positron' ?
I remember they held a rally for him online....
Think folks created characters positron related for that event..
Hope Matt felt the love from us all. 

[Aggelakis]

Uh, no, the Unity Rally was the one that TonyV organized after the shutdown notice. The one that got us 33 instances of Atlas Park on Virtue (the origin of AP33), plus uncounted others on other servers when Virtue filled up.

[Golden Girl]

It was also the event that made the torch the symbol of the community's stand against NCsoft.

[Lycantropus]

And as someone who's kept a record of such things for those interested;

TonyV's speech at the event that I kept a copy of for posterity (yeah, I'm weird like that). This is in honor of all those who continue to keep the torch aloft...

[Help] TonyV: Heya all, I wish I could tell you words to describe how I'm feeling right now.
[Help] TonyV: Oh wait, the mods aren't here... I CAN tell you those words!    (I kid, I kid!)
[Help] TonyV: I can sum up what I'm seeing right now in two words:  MIND.  BLOWN.
[Help] TonyV: As I stand here in the train station on Atlas 13, I am seeing 33 instances of Atlas Park.
[Help] TonyV: Now if I remember correctly, each instance holds 100 people.  (I don't know that for a fact, so don't bust my chops if I'm off by a little.)
[Help] TonyV: That's upwards of 3300 people all in one place at one time.
[Help] TonyV: That's simply incredible.
[Help] TonyV: I just wanted to tell you all that this is the most amazing community.  EVER.
[Help] TonyV: So let me tell you a little bit about what we've done in just ONE WEEK.
[Help] TonyV: We've mobilized people across a ton of social media outlets.
[Help] TonyV: Facebook has been exploding with Likes, Shares, tags, and a bunch of boards dedicated to the cause of saving our beloved Paragon City.
[Help] TonyV: Right now on Twitter, #SaveCoH is the TOP trending topic.
[Help] TonyV: We've put out press releases, and thanks to our friends in the gaming, comic, and technology media, we have over a hundred articles posted on blogs, news sites, video podcats, etc.
[Help] TonyV: I have to give a really special shoutout to Massively, who is broadcasting our Unity Rally LIVE at http://www.twitch.tv/massivelytv
[Help] TonyV: You guys at Massively rock, and I can't tell you how much gratitude we have for your excellent coverage of our game.
[Help] TonyV: (33 Atlas Parks and counting!)
[Help] TonyV: At the Titan Network, we have welcomed people who want to congregate and be part of the effort to Save Paragon City.
[Help] TonyV: Our own membership numbers have positively exploded by an order of magnitude.
[Help] TonyV: We organized a letter-writing campaign to NCsoft, and I've read a bunch of the letters people have posted and copied us on.
[Help] TonyV: They are amazing stories of how incredibly strong our community is, and how much City of Heroes means to us.
[Help] TonyV: And I can tell you, they WILL make a difference.
[Help] TonyV: In the coming week, we're going to be organizing a couple of other important campaigns.
[Help] TonyV: One, we'll tell you about today and post information on during the Unity Rally.
[Help] TonyV: One, we'll tell you about within a day or two.
[Help] TonyV: Your unwavering support is GREATLY appreciated.
[Help] TonyV: I've reached out to NCsoft, and I have gathered some contact information for other key people that we'll need to community with, people who have the decision-making ability for us all to win.
[Help] TonyV: I KNOW they are paying attention, and I am VERY optimistic that these effots really are getting a lot of attention within the company.
[Help] TonyV: I've also talked to some of the staffers at Paragon Studios.  I can't really say anything, but everyone I've talked to is also optimistic and upbeat, and they all are VERY appreciative of our efforts and the outpouring of support.
[Help] TonyV: As much as this game is our baby, it is even moreso theirs.  It is what they've poured their life's passion into, many of them for 10 years or more.  Our willingness to stand up for what it represents really is giving them a morale booster shot.
[Help] TonyV: So with that, let's talk about our next campaign!
[Help] TonyV: I've been working with one of the members of our community.  She told me about an idea she had, and as soon as I heard it, I thought, "Wow, that's EXACTLY what we need!"
[Help] TonyV: So since she came up with the idea and has been driving it, I want her to tell you about it.
[Help] TonyV: Her name is @Maressa, and she'll show up as Meticulous Meta in the channel.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Hi everyone! A huge thank you to everyone here! And an even bigger one for Tony!
[Help] TonyV: @Maressa, I'll turn it over to you!!!
[Help] Meticulous Meta: I am super excited to have been here with you all for the last 12 hours.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: It has been amazing.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: I know there have been a lot of calls for people to send things in to the NCSoft Offices.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Well now we're going to!
[Help] Meticulous Meta: But its not food.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: We're SEnding in Capes and Masks!
[Help] Meticulous Meta: I'll be posting some information on the forums soon.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Addresses, links to masks and capes you can send in.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: City of Heroes forums and Titan forums both.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Also, be taking screenshots today. We have a plan which will be announced in a few days.
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Thank you all for coming. Keep yup those tweets: @NCSoftGames we are Heroes. This is what we do! #SaveCoH
[Help] Obsidian Rabbit: show all your love for CoH people!!!
[Help] Meticulous Meta: Ok everyone! I'm going to turn it back over to Tony now. Thanks for listening!
[Help] TonyV: Thanks, @Maressa!
[Help] TonyV: So just a couple more notes, and then I'll leave you all to party.  
[Help] TonyV: First, be sure to keep track of our efforts at the Titan Network forums: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum
[Help] TonyV: In particular, the Save Paragon City! forum.
[Help] TonyV: Second, I cannot emphasize this enough: PLEASE continue to get the word out!
[Help] TonyV: Join one of the City of Heroes groups.
[Help] TonyV: One in particular I've been active on is Save City Of Heroes
[Help] TonyV: On Twitter, please tweet out our activities using the hash tag #SaveCoH
[Help] TonyV: We're in the process of setting up a YouTube channel for multimedia expressions of our commitment.  (Side note: Be sure to search for Save City of Zero Wing for a treat.)
[Help] TonyV: Keep posting your support for our awesome Paragon Studios staff on the official forums.  These people build the world in which our imaginations have lived for over eight and a half years, and they deserve all of our kudos and support.
[Help] TonyV: When you run across media coverage of our efforts, please engage in any comment sections or discussion forums they have, and let them know that we REALLY appreciate their coverage of our effotts.
[Help] TonyV: *efforts.  I knew I couldn't get through this without a typo.  
[Help] TonyV: Be sure to tune in to The Cape Radio (www.thecaperadio.com), who has been an incredible source of entertainment for our community and who is covering the rally today.
[Help] TonyV: Oh, and THANK YOU, citizens of Virtue for hosting our party today and for being such gracious and wonderful hosts!
[Help] TonyV: Don't forget to stick around at 6:00 Eastern for the Paragon Appreciation Costume Contest, the LARGEST costume contest held in a gaming community EVER.
[Help] TonyV: I'll wrap up with one more thought.
[Help] TonyV: A famous man once said, 'Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before.'
[Help] TonyV: Some people think that this is the end of our incredible community.
[Help] TonyV: Well, I can tell you that I do not hold to that.
[Help] TonyV: No more runnin'.
[Help] TonyV: I aim to misbehave.  

Having played other MMO's, I have to say... We're still the most amazing community... ever.

[Lycantropus]

It was also the event that made the torch the symbol of the community's stand against NCsoft.

While one is often best defined by their enemies (so it is said) and I do think it defines 'us' as a movement... I like to think, in this instance, the torch represents less what we stand *against* as much as what we stand *for* in comparison.

In my opinion, City of Heroes is greater than Cryptic or NCsoft. To be fair to a despised name here, NCsoft kept the game around after the original company would have LONG closed it down for MUO, and it still survives to those who visit it even beyond NCsoft's 'realignment of company focus'. While unpopular to espouse, the fact NCsoft kept the 'Freem 15' and created a studio for them is a credit to them worthy of at least some slack in their regard at our darkest moments. Maybe not on the anniversary of their closing our City, but still noteworty nonetheless. That said, I still wouldn't purchase or subscribe to another game of theirs so they can take that pale praise for what it's worth...

The fact we still come to this forum and continue to talk about it, keep it vital with Icon, videos, screenshots and demos, and do what we can to protect it, proves it is something beyond being an IP belonging to a company. It's a City... 'our City' and in some form it will always be... 'OUR CITY'.

Now... While I can't speak for every Torchbearer; we all have our reasons, and they're all valid. As for me, I continue to hold the torch for hope... for Paragon... and it's protectors and allies.

Lyc~

[JaguarX]

While one is often best defined by their enemies (so it is said) and I do think it defines 'us' as a movement... I like to think, in this instance, the torch represents less what we stand *against* as much as what we stand *for* in comparison.

In my opinion, City of Heroes is greater than Cryptic or NCsoft. To be fair to a despised name here, NCsoft kept the game around after the original company would have LONG closed it down for MUO, and it still survives to those who visit it even beyond NCsoft's 'realignment of company focus'. While unpopular to espouse, the fact NCsoft kept the 'Freem 15' and created a studio for them is a credit to them worthy of at least some slack in their regard at our darkest moments. Maybe not on the anniversary of their closing our City, but still noteworty nonetheless. That said, I still wouldn't purchase or subscribe to another game of theirs so they can take that pale praise for what it's worth...

The fact we still come to this forum and continue to talk about it, keep it vital with Icon, videos, screenshots and demos, and do what we can to protect it, proves it is something beyond being an IP belonging to a company. It's a City... 'our City' and in some form it will always be... 'OUR CITY'.

Now... While I can't speak for every Torchbearer; we all have our reasons, and they're all valid. As for me, I continue to hold the torch for hope... for Paragon... and it's protectors and allies.

Lyc~

yeah I was absent for the torch thing and Atlas 33. Yeah, this game would have been closed long ago and many would have been steaming mad at Cryptic and calling Cryptic mmo killer and boycotting PWE and such now if NCSOFT walked away from it originally. Instead not only did they keep it open, as said, they built a studio around the game, eventually got more staff, even more updates and kept it going for years. And kept the game around longer than most companies keep low impact, (and what I mean by low impact is less than 200,000 players), games around. Most games with that type of population rarely see four years. We seen 8.

Realignments happen a lot. Hell, the government went through many alignments since 2004-2012. Bases were closed and other downsized. That were thousands, not hundred, thousands of people out of work, some been working there for decades. The army trimmed down soldiers, people got early retired, contracts canceled, contracts not renewed, people switched to part time, hiring freezes, people getting delayed from coming back from overseas staying away from their families for over a year, many missing the birth of their children, others missing graduations, and many soldiers with "health problems" that would have been kept, are being kicked out for anything now. Even education benefits are being cut back, they are proposing that the military member's housing allowance be slimmed, which is no problem for high ranking but devastating to privates that barely make min. wage and already working on slim income to provide for themselves and families and unlike most jobs, they just cant up and walk out without ending up in jail. Realignments affect people more deeply than a game loss. As tragic as it is, we can make a new game. Others due to age (although technically illegal), and some due to PTSD, will probably never find another job.  And even if they manage to apply for help at VA, they are seriously backlogged for years meaning the wait may be up to three years. That's a long time to be in lurch.

[Triplash]

TonyV's speech at the event that I kept a copy of for posterity (yeah, I'm weird like that).

It's not weird, man. To anyone who loved this game that was a historic day, with a historic speech to mark it. Hopefully - fingers and toes and eyes crossed - one day in the future we'll get many more chances to gather together in a city of superpowered heroes.

Thanks for putting that up, I enjoyed reading it again

Having played other MMO's, I have to say... We're still the most amazing community... ever.

Amen to that! Hands down, the best I've seen.

[navyrayne]

I missed that day, never had a chance to get on. I never had a chance to stand with my friends and raise a torch, well, such is life.

[Manga]

While unpopular to espouse, the fact NCsoft kept the 'Freem 15' and created a studio for them is a credit to them worthy of at least some slack in their regard at our darkest moments. Maybe not on the anniversary of their closing our City, but still noteworty nonetheless

I'm sorry, but I can't agree on this point.  Yes, it's true that NCSoft probably saved City of Heroes at one point, but between then and last year, something bad happened.  I don't know what it is, but NCSoft corporate developed some very bad blood with either the Paragon staff or the City of Heroes players.  And that definitely showed when they met every attempt to save CoH through buyouts and/or licensing with spite, bad faith negotiation, mocking, and lies.  It was like trying to negotiate with a child who's running around in circles with your car keys, laughing at you.

There was no legitimate business reason for NCSoft to refuse to sell CoH, other than to assert control at any cost.  No reason to treat the potential buyers the way they did, and lie to the players other than because they can.  Quite simply, they have demonstrated that they have nothing but contempt for their player population and their own staff, and are willing to waste all amounts of money to show it.  So I believe they don't deserve any praise unless they are willing to change.

If anyone's wondering why I still harbor so much anger toward NCSoft, that's why - they didn't just close a game, they went to great lengths to destroy it.  I have endless praise for those who worked tirelessly to save the game, and didn't let the bad behavior of the company they negotiated with get them down.

[navyrayne]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree on this point.  Yes, it's true that NCSoft probably saved City of Heroes at one point, but between then and last year, something bad happened.  I don't know what it is, but NCSoft corporate developed some very bad blood with either the Paragon staff or the City of Heroes players.  And that definitely showed when they met every attempt to save CoH through buyouts and/or licensing with spite, bad faith negotiation, mocking, and lies.  It was like trying to negotiate with a child who's running around in circles with your car keys, laughing at you.

There was no legitimate business reason for NCSoft to refuse to sell CoH, other than to assert control at any cost.  No reason to treat the potential buyers the way they did, and lie to the players other than because they can.  Quite simply, they have demonstrated that they have nothing but contempt for their player population and their own staff, and are willing to waste all amounts of money to show it.  So I believe they don't deserve any praise unless they are willing to change.

If anyone's wondering why I still harbor so much anger toward NCSoft, that's why - they didn't just close a game, they went to great lengths to destroy it.  I have endless praise for those who worked tirelessly to save the game, and didn't let the bad behavior of the company they negotiated with get them down.

I'm with you on pretty much every point there TheManga. They proved just how much they would rather sweep us under the rug and move on when they refused to sell the IP.

[JaguarX]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree on this point.  Yes, it's true that NCSoft probably saved City of Heroes at one point, but between then and last year, something bad happened.  I don't know what it is, but NCSoft corporate developed some very bad blood with either the Paragon staff or the City of Heroes players.  And that definitely showed when they met every attempt to save CoH through buyouts and/or licensing with spite, bad faith negotiation, mocking, and lies.  It was like trying to negotiate with a child who's running around in circles with your car keys, laughing at you.

There was no legitimate business reason for NCSoft to refuse to sell CoH, other than to assert control at any cost.  No reason to treat the potential buyers the way they did, and lie to the players other than because they can.  Quite simply, they have demonstrated that they have nothing but contempt for their player population and their own staff, and are willing to waste all amounts of money to show it.  So I believe they don't deserve any praise unless they are willing to change.

If anyone's wondering why I still harbor so much anger toward NCSoft, that's why - they didn't just close a game, they went to great lengths to destroy it.  I have endless praise for those who worked tirelessly to save the game, and didn't let the bad behavior of the company they negotiated with get them down.

One part of negotiation is that the buyer do have the option to sell or not.

I don't think they lied, as their later actions have shown a lot of actual company realignment like they said. Nor do I recall too much mocking. I think they only made two statements.

And given that the negotiations went pretty far and from what I hear it went near to being finalized, that don't sound like bad faith negotiating. There are probably many factors that play into selling something like that.

Most corporations usually frown upon a group of employees trying to stage a buyout.

And I wouldn't say they have contempt for their entire player population either, or even most. COX made up a pretty small percent of their player base and the games that are still open and they are still operating seem to be getting along fine and treated decent. How they came to the decision that COX and or Paragon Studios had to go? I don't know. Maybe it was animosity, and they despised the hero game and wanted to destroy it or maybe it was simply business. Either way, they owned it and thus it was their choice to sell or keep. That is one of the perks of ownership.

Good thing though, it seems that COX players wont have to worry about their ownership anymore.

Just like giving a ride to someone. Just because you give them a ride even everyday doesn't mean they now have rights to the radio and at anytime the car owner can decide to stop giving rides for what ever reason they chose. Will the person that used to being given rides be upset? More than likely. But if they make an offer on the car to buy it, the owner of the car is not obliged to sell the car to them even if the owner simply plan on putting it in the garage for a while or forever or even plan on simply breaking all the windows and setting it on fire, even if the rider gave gas money every now and then. In fact the owner is not even obliged to give a reason for their sudden stoppage of giving rides. Is that the proper way to do it? Depends. The rider probably will feel like they been betrayed, dumped to the curb for no reason, and probably mad at the owner of the car. And it might be dick move on behalf of the car owner to do that. But since they own the car, by definition they wasn't obliged to give rides in the first place, just like NCSOFT could have bought the game and sat on it then. I wouldn't be surprised that after all of this, they wished they did just that when Cryptic left. But at the same time, the rider ranting and raving and talking bad about the person that used to give them ride probably wont convince the owner of the car to listen to them and change their mind. If anything they probably regret giving the rides in the first place and probably would be more adamant on keeping the car even if out of spite and not having anything to do with the rider that is talking bad about them even if they offered a ton load of money for the car. 

And not telling how the bad blood started if it was any. For all we know, the Paragon Staff may have started it with planning on the buyout in the first place. They gave them a job, their own studio and they get thanks by the staff wanting to go solo and be competition. Most corporations would highly frown upon that type of behavior and probably would close down that section too and reclaim their stuff. No corporation want to finance potential competition. Many rather lose customers outright then to lose customers that are putting money into others pockets that they help create and gave the tools to but not making a cent off of it.

And fortunately and unfortunately the point of business is not to foster goodwill but to make money and that is about it. If fostering good will bring in more money that they feel is worth it, they tend to do just that. But if it is not and or not profitable to their standards, most businesses don't give a rat's butt about fostering goodwill especially if it wont affect their expected bottom line. Charity is supposed to be goodwill. Plus I don't see the point in expected corporations to foster goodwill when people walk by starving people in the street each day and don't give a single penny to them or buy them food to clothes but expect companies to provide goodwill when it involves themselves.

[srmalloy]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree on this point.  Yes, it's true that NCSoft probably saved City of Heroes at one point, but between then and last year, something bad happened.  I don't know what it is, but NCSoft corporate developed some very bad blood with either the Paragon staff or the City of Heroes players.  And that definitely showed when they met every attempt to save CoH through buyouts and/or licensing with spite, bad faith negotiation, mocking, and lies.  It was like trying to negotiate with a child who's running around in circles with your car keys, laughing at you.

There's no way to prove it without some breaking and entering, some strong-arm work, and a large amount of scopolamine, but I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the things that may have contributed to the high-handed arrogance of the shutdown was the attempt by Paragon Studios to buy itself out, filtered through Korean cultural prejudices. They were trying to rock the boat by buying themselves out, unwilling to accept their position in the corporate power structure, so they had to be made an example of before their lack of respect could affect the 'face' of any of the NCSoft management staff. Demonstrating once more that they don't -- or can't be bothered to -- understand the differences in Western culture, where this kind of thing happens all the time.

[JaguarX]

There's no way to prove it without some breaking and entering, some strong-arm work, and a large amount of scopolamine, but I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the things that may have contributed to the high-handed arrogance of the shutdown was the attempt by Paragon Studios to buy itself out, filtered through Korean cultural prejudices. They were trying to rock the boat by buying themselves out, unwilling to accept their position in the corporate power structure, so they had to be made an example of before their lack of respect could affect the 'face' of any of the NCSoft management staff. Demonstrating once more that they don't -- or can't be bothered to -- understand the differences in Western culture, where this kind of thing happens all the time.

basically.

[Ironwolf]

I work for a large company - when they make a decision to close a building or a program - they decide and then pull the trigger. Once it is done there is no going back. I think that is what happened here.

Let me try this scenario out:

1. NCSoft corp says western offices will be closing by 12/31
2. They accounce the closing and make in their minds generous leaving bonuses
3. they are shocked to find - the people don't want to leave they want to buy the game.
4. the executive that is now in charge of western offices is the ax man - he doesn't have power for anything except shut downs.
5. they talk to this executive and he basically says - we are closing what is the problem - we gave you severance.
6. employees say we don't want the money we want to buy you out.
7. executive has absolutely no authority to sell the IP but decides to string along and let time run out.
8. people get mad and a statement is made about the studio wasn't making money blah, blah, blah random form letter on shutdown.
9. shutdown happens executive moves on and NCSoft main office is happy

This is how stuff happens here - logic and even profit means little. If you are a mid level executive - you do not have the power to decide policy - you enforce it.

[JaguarX]

I work for a large company - when they make a decision to close a building or a program - they decide and then pull the trigger. Once it is done there is no going back. I think that is what happened here.

Let me try this scenario out:

1. NCSoft corp says western offices will be closing by 12/31
2. They accounce the closing and make in their minds generous leaving bonuses
3. they are shocked to find - the people don't want to leave they want to buy the game.
4. the executive that is now in charge of western offices is the ax man - he doesn't have power for anything except shut downs.
5. they talk to this executive and he basically says - we are closing what is the problem - we gave you severance.
6. employees say we don't want the money we want to buy you out.
7. executive has absolutely no authority to sell the IP but decides to string along and let time run out.
8. people get mad and a statement is made about the studio wasn't making money blah, blah, blah random form letter on shutdown.
9. shutdown happens executive moves on and NCSoft main office is happy

This is how stuff happens here - logic and even profit means little. If you are a mid level executive - you do not have the power to decide policy - you enforce it.

Yeah that is how it usually goes even in western business.