City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively

[downix]

The problem with Mantic's argument boils down to wanting his cake and to eat it too. We show the material now, as he is effectively stomping his feet and demanding, then the new material in the KS will be incredibly limited. We delay for the KS as we have, we get comments like this where in effect he's telling us to go to hell for not showing him anything and that the KS will be a failure even before we've held it. This is being a unicorn.

[downix]

Fully textured and normal mapped. Hm. Well, that's actually an interesting point. If they had one character fully textured, they'd essentially have the costume creator done, sans art, already. What if they had buildings or objects fully textured instead? I mean, unless you'd rather them spend time making the equivalent of a coverall that'd then be thrown away.

We've shown buildings/objects fully textured already, like this example picture:

[lapucelle]

Mm, make it one little house and you got Up there. Or... I'm remembering a very old... children's book or cartoon? About a little house and a city grew up around it?

Anyhow, how's that for a start? Can we get a better shot of that or a different one showing something a little closer?

I guess we're _all_ very nervous about the kickstarter, MWM and community both. We've got to make allowances for that.

[Mantic]

No, static objects use entirely different systems. Buildings, if they use normal maps, may even use a different kind of mapping -- output in batch along with lighting and other baked bits. And thousands of high school kids have made maps for 3D shooters -- it's not terribly demanding to texture a bunch of cubes and cylinders.

Further, it is just a very different process building a high resolution organic character model for normal sourcing than the most complex architecture. It deforms, uses dynamic lighting, independent normals, etc.

You will probably have to consider your demo characters throwaways, since you can't tie them into a complete character customization. Your demo won't thus be showing any dynamic stitching tricks on the character geometry either, but I doubt most people will even know that is demanded (it's specific to modular character systems, after all).



But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today (never said anything of the sort), and I am actually wanting to see you succeed. I'm just concerned about the apparent attitude that you don't have to put a lot into impressing potential investors when you put this up on kickstarter. That people will flock to throw money at you even if you don't show your ability to do what you say convincingly (which is not necessarily the same as 100% truthfully, as in the case of the aforementioned unified character geometry).

[lapucelle]

Well, I certainly hope that's not the actual attitude of anyone on the project.
As for the rest of it, I can't say. All I can say is that I think people are working very hard on having something impressive. And I hope we'll all be impressed.

... I also hope people don't raise their hope so high they're expecting the game five seconds after the kickstarter ended. Shadowrun Returns just launched yesterday, the Space Quest sequel's still not out yet, and neither is Double Fine's adventure. And those all ended a while ago.

Until then, let's stay united, and wait and see what comes. Keep the blood pressure down, and go buy new shoes.

... well, when it knocks your socks off, you'll need them, won't you?

[downix]

No, static objects use entirely different systems. Buildings, if they use normal maps, may even use a different kind of mapping -- output in batch along with lighting and other baked bits.

Further, it is just a very different process building a high resolution organic character model for normal sourcing than teh most complext architecture. It also deforms, and so uses tangent space.

You will probably have to consider your demo characters throwaways, since you can't tie them into a complete character customization. Your demo won't thus be showing any dynamic stitching tricks on the character geometry either, but I doubt most people will even know that is demanded (it's specific to modular character systems, after all).

But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today, and I am actually wanting to see you succeed. I'm just concerned about the apparent attitude that you don't have to put a lot into impressing potential investors when you put this up on kickstarter. That people will flock to throw money at you even if you don't show your ability to do what you say convincingly (which is not necessarily the same as 100% truthfully, as in the case of the aforementioned unified character geometry).

If that was our attitude, we would not have Lauren continually begging us to release something sooner. I would not be sitting here wishing I was not holding back on things for the next 5 weeks for the KS. We know we need to show that "Yes, we can do this." To do that, however, we need to show what we can do *at that time.* Sitting here, weeks ahead of time, complaining that we're not showing anything is really frustrating, as demonstrated by Minotaur above, so you cannot be surprised people got snippy.

We've been saying for months, this is going to take time to do right, and we are saving up our material for the Kickstarter. Check out our Facebook page, you'll see regular shots from within the engine until a set point, then it slows down to a trickle. You'll see our switch from a textured model to a generic looking block setup for testing purposes, so we can verify that *we* are pulling it off, not the included Unreal material, to investors, to all of you. These are all critical steps for development.

[ukaserex]

I think a lot of people are really setting themselves up for disappointment. It's tough to remind myself that the folks who are volunteering their time and effort at MWM to create TPP are doing just that - volunteering. This means that they likely have another full time job - so whatever they're doing, they're doing it in bits and pieces, here and there.

On the one hand, there are outsiders who are simply in love with the idea of a game designed by a community, rather than a publisher. They want to have a reason to support it. Others are looking for any reason to not support it. Now that I have a better idea of what a kickstarter is supposed to do, I'm not wondering what they're going to show me. I don't think it matters. Most have already decided to give $X dollars. How many of us have said that we'd have given 30 or 50 bucks a month to NCSoft if they'd have kept the game going?
Now, here's MWM trying very hard to get an even better game going, the only question is when will it happen. The more $ they raise, it's likely the game will be in some alpha version that much sooner.

Myself, I don't expect them to be done before the later part of 2015, and I've no idea how much time any of them put into the project on a daily or weekly basis. It's going to take as long as it takes. It's going to cost as little as possible because it's all voluntary.

I just keep telling myself that the game engine folks are allowing them to use the engine with the finances being settled later. It might be a standard deal, but it tells me that someone has done a fair job of selling a marketable skill set, if nothing else.

So, for now, I'm just patiently waiting. I'm not going to see Man of Steel in the movies. I've cancelled my Netflix account. I'll just watch YouTube for free and put that money I saved into an envelope until it's time. And when it's time, I'll make a determination at that point. Until then, it's all just wasted words, right?

[Mantic]

Now that I have a better idea of what a kickstarter is supposed to do, I'm not wondering what they're going to show me. I don't think it matters. Most have already decided to give $X dollars. How many of us have said that we'd have given 30 or 50 bucks a month to NCSoft if they'd have kept the game going?

It's going to take more than us. For one thing, our loyalties are divided. For another, TPP isn't actually getting much more from me than a basic level show-of-support buy in, because I do not view it as an actual replacement for the game that brought me to this dance. If the amount needed to license the engine alone is $50k, and there's more needed besides,MWM will have to win quite a few backers outside this community.

So it definitely matters what they can show. We're easy. Yes, even me, insofar as I am willing to commit. Everyone else, not so much.

[Sermon]

I think people have to be realistic what a KS is. It's a leap of faith. If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier. Don't pledge to KS money you can't afford or expect to see back. KS know this too, hence why their rules prohibit offering lifetime subs. 

Personally, I think that is remarkably disingenuous to the potential pledger.

So it definitely matters what they can show. We're easy. Yes, even me, insofar as I am willing to commit. Everyone else, not so much.

The press too. Consider Rock Paper Shotgun, which (if I remember right) was founded by some folks that were big City of Heroes fans. The writer said as much, at least, in his write-up on the project. That said, their sharp tongue and quick wit could quickly become a liability if they are definitively unimpressed.

[therain93]

Personally, I think that is remarkably disingenuous to the potential pledger.

A fool and his money part quickly.
 
Not to be negative, but you really do have to treat Kickstarter like you're giving money to friends and family -- don't expect to get it back, but if you do, awesome!  Seriously, look at 38 Studios and the state of Rhode Island.  The state kicked in millions of dollars and tax breaks to help fund that studio's game development (the Copernicus mmo) and it went under with nothing to show for it.  Now, put that in perspective to this.  That isn't intended to scare people off, but, as much as KS says they don't support "causes", that's exactly what every single kickstarter campaign kind of is.  Do you believe in the work, based on whatever has been presented to you by the time the collection plate is brought out?  If yes, then donate.  If no, then don't.
 

[Sermon]

Not to be negative, but you really do have to treat Kickstarter like you're giving money to friends and family -- don't expect to get it back, but if you do, awesome!

1) Video games don't constitute all kickstarters. Musicians kickstart completed albums. Board game designers kickstart games with design, art, and documentation already complete. Be careful when you generalize beyond one industry.
2) What you describe is exactly the reason that professionals with a definite portfolio are dominating the video game kickstarter landscape.

[Aggelakis]

But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today, and I am actually wanting to see you succeed.

You could have fooled me.

Please check your attitude at the door. I don't mind debate, and I don't mind picking apart details to get at the meat of things. But when you act like a jackass with seemingly no respect for your fellows (which you've been doing), I start minding.

I'm close to locking this thread because it's basically gone its course. If you can't be considerate, send it in a PM.

[LadyVamp]

Amazing the amount of stuff this kickstarter announcement generated.  I'm with Aggelakis on this one.  Healthy debate is always welcome but let's remember to keep it healthy and not let it degrade.

Right now, I'm glad to see one of the development teams is about to showcase some of their work.  I am optimistic but will reserve judgement until after I've seen their work.  The fact they are even preparing to do this says volumes.  I propose we put the tools to use debate on hold forever.  If we get stuck in that, we'll never get the game.  As for licenses, at the very least, consider something just for the protection of the project from lawsuits.  There are plenty of licenses that will work including, but not limited too, BSD, GNU, Apache, etc.

[Peregrine Falcon]

I'm very surprised by the amount of argument and debate that this kickstarter project has started, not in the comments at Massively, but right here on this forum.

People can donate their time and work on the project for free, but there are certain things that are not free, such as software and servers and object libraries and probably a dozen other things that I, as someone with no programming skills, am not aware of.

But did we not expect that Kickstarter would be involved at some point? Did we not know that people were going to be working on this project in their spare time? Did we not know that the software and tools necessary to make this happen cost money? And, did we not understand that those of us who are not on the project cannot dictate to those who are how to spend their time and what to spend the money that we donate to them on?

We can bicker on which tools or software are better or necessary, but if we're not on the team working on this game we can't possibly know if we're actually right. There are many considerations as to why a certain program might be necessary even if we don't think it's the 'best' one. Factors such as compatibility, as well as the previous experience, skill and comfort level that the people who will be using those tools have.

The bottom line is: if you're willing to donate your money for this project with the understanding that you're taking a risk then do so and if you're not then don't, but this uninformed bickering and deliberate attacking of other members of the community accomplishes nothing.

[JaguarX]

The bottom line is: if you're willing to donate your money for this project with the understanding that you're taking a risk then do so and if you're not then don't, but this uninformed bickering and deliberate attacking of other members of the community accomplishes nothing.

Well for many this may be some people's first time even thinking about donating to kickstarter so naturally there may be some feelings of doubt and or uneasiness.

Instead of saying bluntly "well donate or don't." It might be better to just kindly enlighten them. Remember most are not programmers or game builders and probably don't regularly fund games. Bluntly telling them to donate or not, is like a beggar asking for change then when asked "Hey, are you really going to put this money to good use?" Simply replies, "Well why you have to be negative. Donate or don't." More than likely than not, they will simply choose to not donate even if they in their heart wanted to help out. And then the person behind them watching also thinking about given may see this and think, "man are they grumpy" and hold on to their wallets too, which is counter productive also.

[NoName]

Just a heads up. MMORPG posted their version of this story a couple hours ago and got a couple NC Soft Kool-Aid drinkers in there already.

Anyone who wants to present facts or TPP team members could help that thread.

[Peregrine Falcon]

Why yes, now that you mention it, a link to the MMORPG thread just might be helpful.

A bit of unsolicited advice: don't bother arguing the legalities of the situation with the trolls, simply posting in favor of this project (assuming you wish to post at all) is much more likely to impress the rank-and-file with the City of Heroes community.

So, for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.

[Minotaur]

Why yes, now that you mention it, a link to the MMORPG thread just might be helpful.

A bit of unsolicited advice: don't bother arguing the legalities of the situation with the trolls, simply posting in favor of this project (assuming you wish to post at all) is much more likely to impress the rank-and-file with the City of Heroes community.

So, for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.

The trolls are right in that case, the article is wrong "MWM is a group of former City of Heroes staff" if that was true we would be sued, have flagged it up for dealing with.

Edit: and they've now changed the article

[Segev]

All I can really say - in response to this whole thread - is that we do thank you all for your support, even the critical but well-meant advice. We do fully intend to have "something to show" of what we've been doing. But no, it won't be in this thread, and it will be trickling out, most likely, before the KS launches. We are encouraging people to save up, if they're the sort that usually prefer a steady regular donation, because we are trying very hard to make sure that the KS is where everybody has the doors opened at once and everybody has time to participate however they like. And we absolutely, positively intend to be showing some great stuff. Saving it for the KS has many of us on edge; I'm sure many of us are experiencing the kind of anticipatory urge to share that devs always do for the first time, and it's mildly frustrating. But we know it'll be worth it. Keep your eyes on Sept 8th!

[JaguarX]

NC Soft Kool-Aid drinkers

*facepalms*

Isnt that what someone got called a troll for in the other article for calling tony a kool aid drinker of the anti-ncsoft sort or rather a shill?

but I guess we can call them ncsoft kool aid drinkers and shills all day and night but it's not considered trolling. Funny how that rule works in our favor at our convenience. :p (Sarcastic but slightly serious snark not directed at NoNAme in particular but a current trend I been noticing with the expectation/demanding of them giving us respect but refusing to show any semblance to anyone else at all.)