Author Topic: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively  (Read 35383 times)

Peregrine Falcon

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 10:39:19 AM »
Let me just take this foot out of my mouth and apologize. I'll earmark a few extra dollars come September to make up for what an asshole I was just two posts up (and no, that's not an invitation for you other two projects to try to get me to be an asshole as often as possible:P). Sorry about that, Peregrine. Really, I am.
Nothing to apologize for. Everyone makes mistakes. Even me, as difficult as that is to believe.  ;D

Feel free to go ahead and throw that extra dough into the hat when the Kickstarter goes live anyway though. There's no better mistake to make than one that benefits your friends.
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Mantic

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 12:47:03 PM »
At this point, I would prefer the community as it was before the announcement before it degraded.

I like you guys here and nice folk it seems but sometimes, I miss the reading the good discussions about things where there could be half dozen sides to a story/topic and not much hate. Now it seems, everyone is mostly on the same page, mostly in agreement mostly here. It's like I'm missing a view on most topics that would be interesting to see how others view it. Don't get me wrong I like it here and it's relatively quiet, but more and more I yearn for the good old COX community where we could poke fun at each other without worrying about someone taking it too serious or stepping on a raw nerve. Where we could call each other "Noob!" in the Virtue channel and have a good laugh. A place where an idea go through a good trial of fire and usually end up as polished solid idea.

That air of consensus or homogeneity you refer to here looks to me like, at least partly, a consequence of vulnerability. Back when the official CoX forum was up, everyone was just another player. We could all safely get into the most heated arguments (if we cared to) without any worry that other players could do anything vindictive in response. Now, with projects like the above, anyone involved in them is very vulnerable. If some person or persons on the forum here get(s) offended, they now have the ability to sabotage these things. Crowdfunded projects especially rely on community good will to go forward.


JaguarX

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2013, 01:08:05 PM »
. Crowdfunded projects especially rely on community good will to go forward.
yeah. that's just it

I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?

I don't know maybe I'm worried about something that shouldn't be worried about. 

Twisted Toon

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2013, 08:14:30 PM »
yeah. that's just it

I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?

I don't know maybe I'm worried about something that shouldn't be worried about.
There is one question that I always ask myself when "worry" comes knocking on my door. "Is there anything I can do about the situation at this time?" If the answer is no, then I don't answer the door. If the answer is yes, then I do what I can do instead of answering the door. Either way, I choose not to worry.

Hey, its kept my blood pressure below 200.  :o
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Jonfan

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 08:59:08 PM »
I am very gratified to see this and happy for all the people involved with Missing Worlds Media. That they have gotten this far on volunteer efforts is awe-inspiring and they all should be very proud. I'm hopeful that this spirit wins the day for them and I will eagerly support the Kickstart.

saipaman

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2013, 09:01:30 PM »
I want videos and pictures and over-the-top stretch goals.

I'd advise against having a reward system that is so complicated people get lost in it and then pick the simplest (and usually the lowest value) reward on the page.

dwturducken

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2013, 10:13:39 PM »
I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?

I'm the only one from my Friday night group who posts here, but most of them check on the major topics about once a month. I know they are very interested in the MWM project, and they are aware of the Valiance folks. Whether they'll contribute or not is up in the air, at the moment. One had a sub in Champs for a bit, but he has a little more in the way of entertainment funds than he did before Black Friday, anyway. The rest, including me, haven't found a game we feel deserves a sub, so we can swing something. For me, my sife gave to the Veronica Mars Kickstarter, so I have a bit more justification, to her, than I otherwise would. :)
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JaguarX

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 10:21:42 PM »
There is one question that I always ask myself when "worry" comes knocking on my door. "Is there anything I can do about the situation at this time?" If the answer is no, then I don't answer the door. If the answer is yes, then I do what I can do instead of answering the door. Either way, I choose not to worry.

Hey, its kept my blood pressure below 200.  :o
working on it. :D

The White Rager

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 11:04:15 PM »
Oookay...let me see if I can address a few of these in the few minutes I've got left before I turn off my computer for the weekend.

One: TPP has not been hasty at all. In fact they decided to delay the kickstarter several times (they had never announced a date but kept saying 'we think soon') because they wanted to make sure they had everything they needed to make it work. As they explained, you only get one shot at the Kickstarter. It has to be done right. Since they are working from the bottom up, getting enough shiny together to make a technical demo that looks good AND shows strong work took a while. Just for instance. There is really no comparing them to all those half-assed efforts referred to.

Two: I would not call Evil1 or Real65 trollers. They became very reasonable as soon as someone - me - made a serious attempt to address their concerns. No one is bashing anyone, but they all notice that they can't find any information on MWM as a business, and that makes them leery. There is nothing troll like about that - it's exactly what someone not a former CoH fan should want to see.

Okay, out of time. Hope this is helpful. Anyone who wants to help convince people should watch for the next TPP update, which will be all about the business end, which just got a re-org. The business sense of MWM is the main concern in the comments on that thread, it is legitimate and deserves to recognized. Not to mention, addressing could significantly impact the results :D

JanessaVR

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2013, 12:43:26 AM »
Two: I would not call Evil1 or Real65 trollers. They became very reasonable as soon as someone - me - made a serious attempt to address their concerns. No one is bashing anyone, but they all notice that they can't find any information on MWM as a business, and that makes them leery. There is nothing troll like about that - it's exactly what someone not a former CoH fan should want to see.
Then you haven't seen enough of their legions of other nasty posts in articles pertaining to CoH over there.

JaguarX

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2013, 01:07:53 AM »
Then you haven't seen enough of their legions of other nasty posts in articles pertaining to CoH over there.
Well to be honest I seen nasty posts from both sides in those articles. Some people here shouldn't throw too many stones. From what I seen in many of those articles, sometimes it's few people from here that go there and start stuff and in many cases, it's the other side. But overall neither side is perfectly clean. And that's just looking at it from a neutral ground honest point of view.

On both sides there were some stuff that were borderline and could be just a lack of tact or trolling but what I notice is that neither side give any benefit of the doubt and go directly for the fight regardless of who started it. In the other articles that is.

Not to mention, In those articles, I noticed more people flock there to "fight them off" while I think in a couple of instances especially around that time that "negative" article came to be, that many people from here went there starting flame wars, yet totally ignored the positive article even after Capt. pointed the article out.   

I think some people are so focused on fighting people like Real65 and Evil1 that they are losing and or lost sight of what we are actually fighting for. But that is my opinion and nothing more.

Or maybe I just hate that our community so split like this. and maybe that just stems more from the ideal clogging up the reality of the situation that it may be impossible at this point to have the community whole again. But that is something I must deal with. That is my battle in not letting the ideal get in the way of the reality. Sometimes I lose. And i'm not talking about ex-coxers merely here and on massively. In CO, in STO, in NW, in WoW many of them chose sides and spend more time battling the other side than the one's actions that caused the homelessness. NCSOFT. Albeit that one side don't seem interesting in fighting against them, but still, to see comments like "it's dead that is the end of it." "Those nutcases? Pffft. F-em." "Those crybabies still aint moved on? They have serious issues." and etc and not just from Evil1 and Real65, but from many coxers across many games view of this cause. And here, calling the other side trolls, and other things. A bit disheartening to me. When in the past we had our differences and sometimes never seen eye to eye but then, we were still coxers at the end of the day. Now...not sure. Or maybe I'm talking nonsense and need a Rockstar. Aint had one in 5 days now. If it is all nonsense I'm taking don't mind me. That situation I cant control and shouldn't be worried about it. What can I do but what I do? I just hope that one day we can let by gones be by gones and get it done on both sides.

We survived the PVP vs pVE wars, and got along decently fine. We survived the l33t vs non-leets and made it out ok, we even survived red side vs blue side and came out on top, even the pre-i13 pvp change supporters vs the posti13 pvp change supporters didn't stop us. Why are we letting action of NCSOFT split the community? Do I have to get out of my tree and catch a white dove? :D I'll murder every single white dove if I have to if it means peace between the sides. :P
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 01:22:19 AM by JaguarX »

downix

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2013, 01:53:12 AM »
Bravo JaguarX, Bravo!

golemjoe

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2013, 05:07:03 AM »

Given the new studio smell that's going to be associate with each of these projects.. would it make sense to actually do a couple smaller kickstarters for each?  The (mostly valid) concern that I think non-COH'ers would express is that they are dealing with a new development team with no real previous game.  If a small kickstart project could fund the basics of something that could then be used as a springboard as justification to fund other pieces.. that might establish the safety net that some are seeking.

As an example.. an indie film might seek production costs, finishing costs and travel/festival costs for mass distribution sales as separate kickstarters. 

Too complicated?  Or worth discussion internally among development groups?


Graydar

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2013, 12:51:35 PM »
To be honest, I believe that a CoH server emulator would probably be the best thing instead of making an entirely new game. Why make a new game like the old one, when you can have the old one, eh? But, failing that, I guess that these projects will be interesting to see come to fruition, even if I have my doubts about them.

Mantic

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2013, 02:36:39 PM »
To be honest, I believe that a CoH server emulator would probably be the best thing instead of making an entirely new game.

I agree, insofar as reviving anything truly resembling the game I was so addicted to for years, and that's nothing new (see many of my annoyed posts with the rush to Plan A... er... Z, last year). However, few if any of the individuals working on these new game projects have the low-level reverse engineering skills to contribute to a server engine capable of communicating with the CoX client. Many aren't even programmers, but creative types needing an outlet. New games don't face the same legal challenges to operation once developed, either.

So I'm not against these projects, for what they really are. Not the most accurate City of Heroes clones, but new games that will find, through their respective development paths, some different synthesis of elements. If both projects succeed, that'll be great, even as it inevitably splits the old CoX player base. Superhero MMO fans will just wind up with more options. The new games will probably appeal to players who never even liked City of Heroes, even as they also fail to appeal to some of us.

Meanwhile, server emulation efforts are apparently ongoing.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 04:07:28 AM by Mantic »

therain93

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2013, 03:05:27 PM »
I'm not going to post on that thread, but I think many of the commenters in there have lost some perspective.
 
1.  The reality is that it is a  superficial PR piece and nothing more -- KS on 9/8.
2.  Because it is a preliminary PR piece, indeed not all of the details are ready.  That's natural, but marketing/PR should be ready for eventualities. (see below).
3.  Some people are going to post that they're enthusiastic about this "next step" and throw out some support.  Awesome.
4.  Some people are going to question it, for any number of reasons, and regardless if it's the right time for those questions or not.  Truthfully, some of the questions evil1 and real65 are asking are actually good ones.
5.  Just because people are posting support or criticism in that thread, it doesn't necessitate a reply....THERE.  Again, perhaps some good questions or issues are raised -- it doesn't mean that they have to be addressed right then and there, or even by some of the people that are stepping up to answer the questions.  As well-intentioned as some people are, that's not necessarily helpful.  MWM is (or should be) taking notes and proactively address those at the next PR opportunity.
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Minotaur

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2013, 08:56:36 AM »
I think people have to be realistic what a KS is. It's a leap of faith. If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier. Don't pledge to KS money you can't afford or expect to see back. KS know this too, hence why their rules prohibit offering lifetime subs. 

In TPPs case, the aim is to acquire the software licences required to do a proper job, rather than relying on the people who have their own copies already, and those don't come cheap. It's not at this stage to pay anybody any money. This will become clearer to people outside the project when the KS launches, and may help to allay some of the fears.

The 2 named naysayers do make the odd fair comment and at least one of them appreciates candid realistic non fanboi answers.


Mantic

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2013, 09:47:12 AM »
If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier.

I don't believe this is true, particularly for an unproven developer. MWM is going to have to show that they have something pretty solid -- that they know this engine well enough to make it do what they say, and that they have the artists they need to make it look good, if they want to raise just... what is it now for the latest Unreal Engine single game commercial license? $50k?

Outside this community, potential backers familiar with Unreal indie and amateur development have seen a lot of polished, playable stuff done completely without license. So expectations will be high.

Minotaur

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2013, 10:42:11 AM »
I don't believe this is true, particularly for an unproven developer. MWM is going to have to show that they have something pretty solid -- that they know this engine well enough to make it do what they say, and that they have the artists they need to make it look good, if they want to raise just... what is it now for the latest Unreal Engine single game commercial license? $50k?

Outside this community, potential backers familiar with Unreal indie and amateur development have seen a lot of polished, playable stuff done completely without license. So expectations will be high.

It's not unreal that's the issue, that's free till you start getting money in then a percentage. It's the various pieces software required to do the character/environment art, animations etc that are expensive and need to be paid up front.

Mantic

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Re: City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2013, 01:43:51 PM »
That's (insert not-nice dismissive word that probably would get turned into something like "fairydust" by the forum filter).

If you don't have them, how would anyone believe you know how to use them? Or do you suppose they're not even claiming that? I've worked on game mods before, and it wasn't all a bunch of gMax users. Yeah, some people had student licensed software, and others had to use converters to go from cheap or free alternatives, but ways were found without begging for money. Because nobody is there to give you money for software just because you say: I'll learn it when I get it.

Or if they are, let's all get in line, since we're equally qualified.

You'd better have the software and know how to use it, or nobody in their right mind is going to give you anything to go forward.

Perhaps you are thinking of a conventional studio license. That is probably not applicable to MWM, since they aren't likely to be operating that way. Probably, members will be working from home as freelancers on a per-item commission basis (avoiding the legal and logistical hassles of waged employees). So just as when a company "outsources" production tasks to any other agency, the software used is not expected to be paid for or otherwise provided. Craftsmen are responsible for their own tools.



Of if you are actually speaking for what this production is up to, then I really can not wish you success. It sounds like an exploitation of Kickstarter's system and this community's desperation by a bunch of kids (untrained, unskilled, completely unqualified) who want expensive toys to play with.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 01:54:52 PM by Mantic »