Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Peregrine Falcon on July 25, 2013, 08:48:34 AM
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City of Heroes spiritual successor plans Kickstarter for Sept. 8th (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/24/city-of-heroes-spiritual-successor-plans-kickstarter-for-sept-8/)
I can't believe that this article has been up for 8 hours now and no one's posted about it here.
Go forth. Comment. Tell your friends. Tweet. Facebook. Do whatever else it is the cool kids do to get the word out.
"One of the candidates vying to be the spiritual successor to City of Heroes will be moving into its fundraising stage come this September. Missing Worlds Media's The Phoenix Project, is preparing a Kickstarter campaign for September 8th. The team says that if all goes well (read: the project gets the moolah it needs), the title could be launched by the end of 2015, although it's hoping to get an avatar creator in our hands by next summer.
In an interview with Polygon, Technical Director Nate Downes said that the project is 25% to 33% done, although the game is being made completely by 136 volunteers who have other jobs or are full-time students. The Phoenix Project is being built using the Unreal Engine, as Epic has licensed the engine to Missing Worlds with no money down until the team gets funded.
Downes hopes that fans will continue to rally to the cause: "This project has grown out of the community that was left behind when City of Heroes closed, so it's really just a lot of passionate people getting together to rebuild that home for themselves.""
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City of Heroes spiritual successor plans Kickstarter for Sept. 8th (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/24/city-of-heroes-spiritual-successor-plans-kickstarter-for-sept-8/)
I can't believe that this article has been up for 8 hours now and no one's posted about it here.
Go forth. Comment. Tell your friends. Tweet. Facebook. Do whatever else it is the cool kids do to get the word out.
"One of the candidates vying to be the spiritual successor to City of Heroes will be moving into its fundraising stage come this September. Missing Worlds Media's The Phoenix Project, is preparing a Kickstarter campaign for September 8th. The team says that if all goes well (read: the project gets the moolah it needs), the title could be launched by the end of 2015, although it's hoping to get an avatar creator in our hands by next summer.
In an interview with Polygon, Technical Director Nate Downes said that the project is 25% to 33% done, although the game is being made completely by 136 volunteers who have other jobs or are full-time students. The Phoenix Project is being built using the Unreal Engine, as Epic has licensed the engine to Missing Worlds with no money down until the team gets funded.
Downes hopes that fans will continue to rally to the cause: "This project has grown out of the community that was left behind when City of Heroes closed, so it's really just a lot of passionate people getting together to rebuild that home for themselves.""
Not to rain on any parades but shouldn't this be in the Plan Z forums, as it technically has nothing to do with the revival of CoH, per say?
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Not to rain on any parades but shouldn't this be in the Plan Z forums, as it technically has nothing to do with the revival of CoH, per say?
I suspect that, like myself, a lot of people don't often check that particular sub forum. So this seemed like the next best choice. Obviously any moderator who disagrees will be able to move the thread if they feel it necessary.
Any comment on the article itself?
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I suspect that, like myself, a lot of people don't often check that particular sub forum. So this seemed like the next best choice. Obviously any moderator who disagrees will be able to move the thread if they feel it necessary.
Any comment on the article itself?
I'll reserve comment on it, really, when more educated members of the forum talk about the validity of said fundraising campaign.
During the wake of the closing of the game, a lot of people had tried to start up a lot of various fundraising campaigns to try to serve various goals, all of which so far had been mostly ill advised or fraudulent.
That isn't to say that I'm automatically presuming this is one of those situations (hence, reserving judgement), but even somebody with the best interests of the community and game at heart can jump into murky legal or strategic waters head first.
I'm reminded of an anecdote where a bunch of CoH fans tried to raise money in Mellisa Bianco's name, in a genuine attempt to try to fund efforts to buy the game back from NCSoft and were chastised for it because of the legal problems it could had created, even though they were working in perfectly good faith and just trying their best to help the community, and weren't trying to fraud anybody or do anything wrong.
I'm a bit saddened by the fact that the Plan Z project has splintered into so many competing groups, honestly. I know that it's the official forum position that all these games could be great and there's no reason to stymie competition, and that the forum itself has no want, per say, to bring down other games like Champions Online or even other NCSoft titles, but I always felt that realistically, funding wise, we were going to get one shot at either buying back CoH or making a spiritual successor game, and that has made me wary of putting money towards competing brands without basically the endorsement of community leaders.
So... I don't really know what to think on the matter.
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I'm looking forward to the kickstarter happening with credit card in hand. I have a lot of faith in TPP and have no worries at all about passing over some cash.
As for there being multiple efforts - that was always going to happen, basic human nature. I am just glad that everything has been handled with care and diplomacy.
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Given the likelihood that ncsoft will do an about face and either sell, give away, or put the game back up, I would say it's going to be spiritual successor or nothing. So if we were to run off spiritual successors, we'd be here waiting forever.
I think it's good for them to announce they are planning a kickstarter and giving a set date. That alone tells me there's some serious interest in making this work. Whether my opinion stays optimistic is up to them. Having product will go along way towards funding.
/e rub hands together and drool with anticipation
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Personally, I hope they have some representation of what the game will look and feel like. Its going to be a lot harder to trust some, um, future professional designers and artists from concept alone. I just hope this kickstarter isn't coming along too soon in the development cycle.
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Personally, I hope they have some representation of what the game will look and feel like. Its going to be a lot harder to trust some, um, future professional designers and artists from concept alone.
This.
Although my mind is all about made up to give something anyways.
But outside looking in, and depending on high the goal will be set at, it might take some convincing.
I know many here is not used to that and used to us, this community, this group of people, but when it is announced, be ready for some prodding from various people. And try to remember some just asking and try to look it from their end. A relatively unknown (unknown outside of here) is starting another kickstarter, like thousands come and go, is starting a kickstarter program. Now, it might be enough within this community alone to get it off the ground but at the same time, don't want to run off potential people that may have not been following all details of this project or just heard about it in that article or two.
Then even then, remember, more successful the game is, the bigger the impact that is shows that we don't need no stinking corporation to have a successful game. But that requires players which are people. Sometimes it's best to answer many up coming questions with a polite "we haven't gotten that far yet but when kickstarter campaign starts we will have that information ready". For example. Or even a simple, we haven't gotten that far yet. And again keep in mind we here know all about this game, but the general community, it might be just another game another group of wanna be devs with a bright idea asking for money. They may ask for credentials, may ask what you have done in the past, may ask who the hell are you, and so on, but remain polite. We want to change the industry? This is our chance, but we must win the people. We win the people, we win the industry, we win the industry, then other must follow lead or cease to exist. And I know some people are expert at snark, hell sometimes I even take it too far, but out there, try to keep the tempers and snark low level when it come to this. I personally don't want to see this kickstarter struggle or worse fall short. If I had the dough, I would personally solo it *ahem* I mean finance it all by myself and call it a day.
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One bit of proactive, unsolicited advice for all three projects. Don't go stepping on each others toes regarding all of your fundraising campaigns. You'll just be shooting yourselves in your feet. If you try to make me choose between two or three of you at the same time, I'll give all of you some money...at the same time. Which will mean splitting my funding. Which will give each of you less money. :P
Other than that slight nagging, I have yet another bit of nagging. I'm excited about this and I hope TPP will keep me excited by bringing us a professional, jaw-dropping impressive Kickstarter page. I want videos and pictures and over-the-top stretch goals. Give us rendering if you have to. I want something at least on par with the other RPG/MMORPG projects over there on Kickstarter.com. That means finished-looking gameplay demonstrations, not just a quirky making-of video which shows off animation actors in front of a green screen, or a generic character model dancing around on a giant Chessboard for lack of environments. I might be willing to give you a second chance, but you'll get just one shot to impress the average gamer at large. If you can't do that come September, please reel it in and keep your nose to the grindstone a while longer. I'm sure we'll all understand a delay. A terrible demo won't garner you nearly as much understanding, and you'll always carry its repercussions on your back.
No pressure, though. ;D
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One bit of proactive, unsolicited advice for all three projects. Don't go stepping on each others toes regarding all of your fundraising campaigns. You'll just be shooting yourselves in your feet. If you try to make me choose between two or three of you at the same time, I'll give all of you some money...at the same time. Which will mean splitting my funding. Which will give each of you less money. :P
Other than that slight nagging, I have yet another bit of nagging. I'm excited about this and I hope TPP will keep me excited by bringing us a professional, jaw-dropping impressive Kickstarter page. I want videos and pictures and over-the-top stretch goals. Give us rendering if you have to. I want something at least on par with the other RPG/MMORPG projects over there on Kickstarter.com. That means finished-looking gameplay demonstrations, not just a quirky making-of video which shows off animation actors in front of a green screen, or a generic character model dancing around on a giant Chessboard for lack of environments. I might be willing to give you a second chance, but you'll get just one shot to impress the average gamer at large. If you can't do that come September, please reel it in and keep your nose to the grindstone a while longer. I'm sure we'll all understand a delay. A terrible demo won't garner you nearly as much understanding, and you'll always carry its repercussions on your back.
No pressure, though. ;D
Actually we've been coordinating our crowdfunding targets with Valiance, to be sure we are not running into any overlap.
And you do realize we're using the blockhead model and chessboard in order to hold back for the KS, right?
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Re: nag 1: I said all THREE projects. Not two. :P
Re: nag 2: And I didn't realize that, no!
And a third nag: Never make assumptions about what we know. Never take offense at our passion. Slight nags like mine are the NICE kind, and if you read between the lines, it's a good sign when you see them. :)
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Re: nag 1: I said all THREE projects. Not two. :P
Re: nag 2: And I didn't realize that, no!
And a third nag: Never make assumptions about what we know. Never take offense at our passion. Slight nags like mine are the NICE kind, and if you read between the lines, it's a good sign when you see them. :)
Well, the door is open for H&V, but they've not yet accepted any talks.
And I'm never frustrated at the nags.
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Well I understand there's some politics there, but Golden Girl (I know you'll read this!), please keep them abreast of the bare minimum at least. For the sake of your fans, as well as H&V. Everyone knows (RIGHT??? :P) how much I'm looking forward to H&V, but that doesn't mean I don't donate to other projects. If I can help crowd fund tower defense games and board games on Kickstarter, I should certainly donate to all three super hero games here. :P
That's uh...my reasoning and I'm sticking to it!
(And Downix it was the "You do know <insert thing>, right?" that gave off an irritated tone in your post, FYI. No worries though.)
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Wow! The comments for that article have really blown up since I started the thread.
And, as expected, the trolls are out in full force. :-\
I think it might be helpful if we could counter that by making some positive comments.
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I am being positive. I'm looking forward to seeing what they have. But if they don't have teddy ears and mouse tails, I might have to downgrade them from super awesome to just awesome. lol
Flying Snow Mouse aka LV
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Wow! The comments for that article have really blown up since I started the thread.
And, as expected, the trolls are out in full force. :-\
I think it might be helpful if we could counter that by making some positive comments.
As much as I've posted and bragged IRL in support of these three exciting projects, Peregrine Falcon, to log in and see my posts being labeled like this just utterly deflates me. A single remark of concern invalidates everything else I've ever said, does it? Paragon Studios was the best and brightest studio I ever witnessed in this industry. And I let them know that on a regular basis. And still do. But I did not worship them, and I did not sacrifice critical thinking on an altar before them. I will treat you no better. If that is not good enough for you, then you are asking for too much indulgence from your audience and for the sake of your success, I hope they never give it to you.
I do want to thank H&V for responding to both praise and concern with equal professionalism so far (at least in my case).
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I think you might want to re-read his post....he said "the comments for that article". He said the trolls are out in the comments for that article. And they certainly are, as with any CoH article. There seems to be a group of folks that have CoH articles pinned on some news aggregater just so they can crap all over them.
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Let me just take this foot out of my mouth and apologize. I'll earmark a few extra dollars come September to make up for what an asshole I was just two posts up (and no, that's not an invitation for you other two projects to try to get me to be an asshole as often as possible:P). Sorry about that, Peregrine. Really, I am.
In other news, I've got quite a bit of reading to catch up on. For some reason it blew right over my head that the big header in the OP is also a big LINK. Maybe because I've been using lots of different forums lately, maybe because I'm tired from work today. But I see about 200 posts there already.
And you know Agge, I use Google News to hoover up news for me, and I'm the guy who set up the City of Heroes feed if any of you used that. I have set up other feeds surrounding City of Heroes too, and they never seem to give me even a quarter of what I can find by searching around on my own. So whatever news aggregation tool these jerks are using, I'd like to know! >:(
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Wow! The comments for that article have really blown up since I started the thread.
And, as expected, the trolls are out in full force. :-\
I think it might be helpful if we could counter that by making some positive comments.
Yeah, the same 2 people, real65 and Evil1, always show up to trash CoH anytime it's ever mentioned on that site, bombing as many posts as they can, as viciously as they can. Some people are just...off the deep end; there's no reasoning with total whackos. I prefer "don't feed the trolls" - better to pretend they don't exist.
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Yeah, the same 2 people, real65 and Evil1, always show up to trash CoH anytime it's ever mentioned on that site, bombing as many posts as they can, as viciously as they can. Some people are just...off the deep end; there's no reasoning with total whackos. I prefer "don't feed the trolls" - better to pretend they don't exist.
actually I been following the article for a while now and reading the comments. This time, there doesn't seem to be much trashing of COH. Some questions and concerns, some presented in a bit brash manner, but not too much outright trolling this time. The comment section for 200 odd replies seems relatively clean compared to many of the others.
But sometimes the whackos are still by definition part of the cox community. At this point, I would prefer the community as it was before the announcement before it degraded.
I like you guys here and nice folk it seems but sometimes, I miss the reading the good discussions about things where there could be half dozen sides to a story/topic and not much hate. Now it seems, everyone is mostly on the same page, mostly in agreement mostly here. It's like I'm missing a view on most topics that would be interesting to see how others view it. Don't get me wrong I like it here and it's relatively quiet, but more and more I yearn for the good old COX community where we could poke fun at each other without worrying about someone taking it too serious or stepping on a raw nerve. Where we could call each other "Noob!" in the Virtue channel and have a good laugh. A place where an idea go through a good trial of fire and usually end up as polished solid idea.
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Let me just take this foot out of my mouth and apologize. I'll earmark a few extra dollars come September to make up for what an asshole I was just two posts up (and no, that's not an invitation for you other two projects to try to get me to be an asshole as often as possible:P). Sorry about that, Peregrine. Really, I am.
Nothing to apologize for. Everyone makes mistakes. Even me, as difficult as that is to believe. ;D
Feel free to go ahead and throw that extra dough into the hat when the Kickstarter goes live anyway though. There's no better mistake to make than one that benefits your friends.
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At this point, I would prefer the community as it was before the announcement before it degraded.
I like you guys here and nice folk it seems but sometimes, I miss the reading the good discussions about things where there could be half dozen sides to a story/topic and not much hate. Now it seems, everyone is mostly on the same page, mostly in agreement mostly here. It's like I'm missing a view on most topics that would be interesting to see how others view it. Don't get me wrong I like it here and it's relatively quiet, but more and more I yearn for the good old COX community where we could poke fun at each other without worrying about someone taking it too serious or stepping on a raw nerve. Where we could call each other "Noob!" in the Virtue channel and have a good laugh. A place where an idea go through a good trial of fire and usually end up as polished solid idea.
That air of consensus or homogeneity you refer to here looks to me like, at least partly, a consequence of vulnerability. Back when the official CoX forum was up, everyone was just another player. We could all safely get into the most heated arguments (if we cared to) without any worry that other players could do anything vindictive in response. Now, with projects like the above, anyone involved in them is very vulnerable. If some person or persons on the forum here get(s) offended, they now have the ability to sabotage these things. Crowdfunded projects especially rely on community good will to go forward.
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. Crowdfunded projects especially rely on community good will to go forward.
yeah. that's just it
I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?
I don't know maybe I'm worried about something that shouldn't be worried about.
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yeah. that's just it
I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?
I don't know maybe I'm worried about something that shouldn't be worried about.
There is one question that I always ask myself when "worry" comes knocking on my door. "Is there anything I can do about the situation at this time?" If the answer is no, then I don't answer the door. If the answer is yes, then I do what I can do instead of answering the door. Either way, I choose not to worry.
Hey, its kept my blood pressure below 200. :o
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I am very gratified to see this and happy for all the people involved with Missing Worlds Media. That they have gotten this far on volunteer efforts is awe-inspiring and they all should be very proud. I'm hopeful that this spirit wins the day for them and I will eagerly support the Kickstart.
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I want videos and pictures and over-the-top stretch goals.
I'd advise against having a reward system that is so complicated people get lost in it and then pick the simplest (and usually the lowest value) reward on the page.
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I hope the goodwill of the community here is enough as it seems many are forgetting about some of the community that isn't here and not worrying about their goodwill as if they even was or ever part of the community. It's like the community is here. Now as I said, I don't mind you folks and like you but when the game or games go live, am I only going to see only the same people in all three games? Only people from here?
I'm the only one from my Friday night group who posts here, but most of them check on the major topics about once a month. I know they are very interested in the MWM project, and they are aware of the Valiance folks. Whether they'll contribute or not is up in the air, at the moment. One had a sub in Champs for a bit, but he has a little more in the way of entertainment funds than he did before Black Friday, anyway. The rest, including me, haven't found a game we feel deserves a sub, so we can swing something. For me, my sife gave to the Veronica Mars Kickstarter, so I have a bit more justification, to her, than I otherwise would. :)
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There is one question that I always ask myself when "worry" comes knocking on my door. "Is there anything I can do about the situation at this time?" If the answer is no, then I don't answer the door. If the answer is yes, then I do what I can do instead of answering the door. Either way, I choose not to worry.
Hey, its kept my blood pressure below 200. :o
working on it. :D
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Oookay...let me see if I can address a few of these in the few minutes I've got left before I turn off my computer for the weekend.
One: TPP has not been hasty at all. In fact they decided to delay the kickstarter several times (they had never announced a date but kept saying 'we think soon') because they wanted to make sure they had everything they needed to make it work. As they explained, you only get one shot at the Kickstarter. It has to be done right. Since they are working from the bottom up, getting enough shiny together to make a technical demo that looks good AND shows strong work took a while. Just for instance. There is really no comparing them to all those half-assed efforts referred to.
Two: I would not call Evil1 or Real65 trollers. They became very reasonable as soon as someone - me - made a serious attempt to address their concerns. No one is bashing anyone, but they all notice that they can't find any information on MWM as a business, and that makes them leery. There is nothing troll like about that - it's exactly what someone not a former CoH fan should want to see.
Okay, out of time. Hope this is helpful. Anyone who wants to help convince people should watch for the next TPP update, which will be all about the business end, which just got a re-org. The business sense of MWM is the main concern in the comments on that thread, it is legitimate and deserves to recognized. Not to mention, addressing could significantly impact the results :D
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Two: I would not call Evil1 or Real65 trollers. They became very reasonable as soon as someone - me - made a serious attempt to address their concerns. No one is bashing anyone, but they all notice that they can't find any information on MWM as a business, and that makes them leery. There is nothing troll like about that - it's exactly what someone not a former CoH fan should want to see.
Then you haven't seen enough of their legions of other nasty posts in articles pertaining to CoH over there.
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Then you haven't seen enough of their legions of other nasty posts in articles pertaining to CoH over there.
Well to be honest I seen nasty posts from both sides in those articles. Some people here shouldn't throw too many stones. From what I seen in many of those articles, sometimes it's few people from here that go there and start stuff and in many cases, it's the other side. But overall neither side is perfectly clean. And that's just looking at it from a neutral ground honest point of view.
On both sides there were some stuff that were borderline and could be just a lack of tact or trolling but what I notice is that neither side give any benefit of the doubt and go directly for the fight regardless of who started it. In the other articles that is.
Not to mention, In those articles, I noticed more people flock there to "fight them off" while I think in a couple of instances especially around that time that "negative" article came to be, that many people from here went there starting flame wars, yet totally ignored the positive article even after Capt. pointed the article out.
I think some people are so focused on fighting people like Real65 and Evil1 that they are losing and or lost sight of what we are actually fighting for. But that is my opinion and nothing more.
Or maybe I just hate that our community so split like this. and maybe that just stems more from the ideal clogging up the reality of the situation that it may be impossible at this point to have the community whole again. But that is something I must deal with. That is my battle in not letting the ideal get in the way of the reality. Sometimes I lose. And i'm not talking about ex-coxers merely here and on massively. In CO, in STO, in NW, in WoW many of them chose sides and spend more time battling the other side than the one's actions that caused the homelessness. NCSOFT. Albeit that one side don't seem interesting in fighting against them, but still, to see comments like "it's dead that is the end of it." "Those nutcases? Pffft. F-em." "Those crybabies still aint moved on? They have serious issues." and etc and not just from Evil1 and Real65, but from many coxers across many games view of this cause. And here, calling the other side trolls, and other things. A bit disheartening to me. When in the past we had our differences and sometimes never seen eye to eye but then, we were still coxers at the end of the day. Now...not sure. Or maybe I'm talking nonsense and need a Rockstar. Aint had one in 5 days now. If it is all nonsense I'm taking don't mind me. That situation I cant control and shouldn't be worried about it. What can I do but what I do? I just hope that one day we can let by gones be by gones and get it done on both sides.
We survived the PVP vs pVE wars, and got along decently fine. We survived the l33t vs non-leets and made it out ok, we even survived red side vs blue side and came out on top, even the pre-i13 pvp change supporters vs the posti13 pvp change supporters didn't stop us. Why are we letting action of NCSOFT split the community? Do I have to get out of my tree and catch a white dove? :D I'll murder every single white dove if I have to if it means peace between the sides. :P
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Bravo JaguarX, Bravo!
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Given the new studio smell that's going to be associate with each of these projects.. would it make sense to actually do a couple smaller kickstarters for each? The (mostly valid) concern that I think non-COH'ers would express is that they are dealing with a new development team with no real previous game. If a small kickstart project could fund the basics of something that could then be used as a springboard as justification to fund other pieces.. that might establish the safety net that some are seeking.
As an example.. an indie film might seek production costs, finishing costs and travel/festival costs for mass distribution sales as separate kickstarters.
Too complicated? Or worth discussion internally among development groups?
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To be honest, I believe that a CoH server emulator would probably be the best thing instead of making an entirely new game. Why make a new game like the old one, when you can have the old one, eh? But, failing that, I guess that these projects will be interesting to see come to fruition, even if I have my doubts about them.
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To be honest, I believe that a CoH server emulator would probably be the best thing instead of making an entirely new game.
I agree, insofar as reviving anything truly resembling the game I was so addicted to for years, and that's nothing new (see many of my annoyed posts with the rush to Plan A... er... Z, last year). However, few if any of the individuals working on these new game projects have the low-level reverse engineering skills to contribute to a server engine capable of communicating with the CoX client. Many aren't even programmers, but creative types needing an outlet. New games don't face the same legal challenges to operation once developed, either.
So I'm not against these projects, for what they really are. Not the most accurate City of Heroes clones, but new games that will find, through their respective development paths, some different synthesis of elements. If both projects succeed, that'll be great, even as it inevitably splits the old CoX player base. Superhero MMO fans will just wind up with more options. The new games will probably appeal to players who never even liked City of Heroes, even as they also fail to appeal to some of us.
Meanwhile, server emulation efforts are apparently ongoing.
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I'm not going to post on that thread, but I think many of the commenters in there have lost some perspective.
1. The reality is that it is a superficial PR piece and nothing more -- KS on 9/8.
2. Because it is a preliminary PR piece, indeed not all of the details are ready. That's natural, but marketing/PR should be ready for eventualities. (see below).
3. Some people are going to post that they're enthusiastic about this "next step" and throw out some support. Awesome.
4. Some people are going to question it, for any number of reasons, and regardless if it's the right time for those questions or not. Truthfully, some of the questions evil1 and real65 are asking are actually good ones.
5. Just because people are posting support or criticism in that thread, it doesn't necessitate a reply....THERE. Again, perhaps some good questions or issues are raised -- it doesn't mean that they have to be addressed right then and there, or even by some of the people that are stepping up to answer the questions. As well-intentioned as some people are, that's not necessarily helpful. MWM is (or should be) taking notes and proactively address those at the next PR opportunity.
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I think people have to be realistic what a KS is. It's a leap of faith. If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier. Don't pledge to KS money you can't afford or expect to see back. KS know this too, hence why their rules prohibit offering lifetime subs.
In TPPs case, the aim is to acquire the software licences required to do a proper job, rather than relying on the people who have their own copies already, and those don't come cheap. It's not at this stage to pay anybody any money. This will become clearer to people outside the project when the KS launches, and may help to allay some of the fears.
The 2 named naysayers do make the odd fair comment and at least one of them appreciates candid realistic non fanboi answers.
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If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier.
I don't believe this is true, particularly for an unproven developer. MWM is going to have to show that they have something pretty solid -- that they know this engine well enough to make it do what they say, and that they have the artists they need to make it look good, if they want to raise just... what is it now for the latest Unreal Engine single game commercial license? $50k?
Outside this community, potential backers familiar with Unreal indie and amateur development have seen a lot of polished, playable stuff done completely without license. So expectations will be high.
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I don't believe this is true, particularly for an unproven developer. MWM is going to have to show that they have something pretty solid -- that they know this engine well enough to make it do what they say, and that they have the artists they need to make it look good, if they want to raise just... what is it now for the latest Unreal Engine single game commercial license? $50k?
Outside this community, potential backers familiar with Unreal indie and amateur development have seen a lot of polished, playable stuff done completely without license. So expectations will be high.
It's not unreal that's the issue, that's free till you start getting money in then a percentage. It's the various pieces software required to do the character/environment art, animations etc that are expensive and need to be paid up front.
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That's (insert not-nice dismissive word that probably would get turned into something like "fairydust" by the forum filter).
If you don't have them, how would anyone believe you know how to use them? Or do you suppose they're not even claiming that? I've worked on game mods before, and it wasn't all a bunch of gMax users. Yeah, some people had student licensed software, and others had to use converters to go from cheap or free alternatives, but ways were found without begging for money. Because nobody is there to give you money for software just because you say: I'll learn it when I get it.
Or if they are, let's all get in line, since we're equally qualified.
You'd better have the software and know how to use it, or nobody in their right mind is going to give you anything to go forward.
Perhaps you are thinking of a conventional studio license. That is probably not applicable to MWM, since they aren't likely to be operating that way. Probably, members will be working from home as freelancers on a per-item commission basis (avoiding the legal and logistical hassles of waged employees). So just as when a company "outsources" production tasks to any other agency, the software used is not expected to be paid for or otherwise provided. Craftsmen are responsible for their own tools.
Of if you are actually speaking for what this production is up to, then I really can not wish you success. It sounds like an exploitation of Kickstarter's system and this community's desperation by a bunch of kids (untrained, unskilled, completely unqualified) who want expensive toys to play with.
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That's (insert not-nice dismissive word that probably would get turned into something like "fairydust" by the forum filter).
If you don't have them, how would anyone believe you know how to use them? Or do you suppose they're not even claiming that? I've worked on game mods before, and it wasn't all a bunch of gMax users. Yeah, some people had student licensed software, and others had to use converters to go from cheap or free alternatives, but ways were found without begging for money. Because nobody is there to give you money for software just because you say: I'll learn it when I get it.
Or if they are, let's all get in line, since we're equally qualified.
You'd better have the software and know how to use it, or nobody in their right mind is going to give you anything to go forward.
Perhaps you are thinking of a conventional studio license. That is probably not applicable to MWM, since they aren't likely to be operating that way. Probably, members will be working from home as freelancers on a per-item commission basis (avoiding the legal and logistical hassles of waged employees). So just as when a company "outsources" production tasks to any other agency, the software used is not expected to be paid for or otherwise provided. Craftsmen are responsible for their own tools.
Nobody's being paid anything for this even after the KS. (I don't know about what happens if we get many times our initial amount and CAN afford to commission stuff to speed it up).
Many of the people have used the relevant software at work/university and know how to use it, but can't afford $1000 for their own copy.
I'm not sure how much of this has had a public release atm, so can't reply as fully as I want to.
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If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.
Further, Blender 3D is a compatible option for use with the Unreal Development Kit by way of custom export plugins. It's kind of weird, but it can do every 3D graphics task required, and it is free. Gimp can do any 2D graphics task, and it's free. Audacity is free. What else?
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If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.
We haven't released where the KS money is going yet. We most definitely will so that donors can see what we're getting with their generosity. But there are programs out there which are not free, or whose professional version isn't free which will indeed cost money. These programs will greatly enhance our current tools and greatly speed up development.
To use a poor analogy: Perhaps someone can create a really beautiful work of art using Microsoft Paint for free (well, free after installing Windows). That person could do much better and do it much faster after plunking down half a grand for Photoshop. And if that person is being asked to churn out thousands of pieces of art... the Photoshop cost is worth it.
-Zombie Man, Online Community Manager, The Phoenix Project
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If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.
Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here.
I don't know if YOUR employer will let you use their licensed copy of a piece of software for a private project, I'd have been sacked if I did it.
If I was a student and graduated, how do I use the university's copy of the software ?
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You can do anything you need for game dev in Gimp equally well to Photoshop. Photoshop has a couple of tools that are better with print resolution work, but frankly, Photoshop's UI is more likely to slow you down than speed you up when working on game graphics. The results will be no different.
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Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here.
I don't know if YOUR employer will let you use their licensed copy of a piece of software for a private project, I'd have been sacked if I did it.
If I was a student and graduated, how do I use the university's copy of the software ?
These are your problems to solve on your own before you come looking for backers to support your work.
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You can do anything you need for game dev in Gimp equally well to Photoshop. Photoshop has a couple of tools that are better with print resolution work, but frankly, Photoshop's UI is more likely to slow you down than speed you up when working on game graphics. The results will be no different.
What part of 'to use a poor analogy' do you not understand? The program in question isn't Photoshop.
Or are you purposely giving what's posted the worst possible interpretation to score points?
Besides, this is a case of 'standard code rant' if I ever saw one.
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If you two are serious, I'm just out. You're just kids who want expensive toys.
You REALLY have to show me how special you are now if you want a dime.
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You don't know what we're asking for, but you know they're toys?
Are you psychic?
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**edited for crassness.
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I see someone here who has never worked with Blender, nor with GIMP, and does not comprehend the production difference.
Can you use Blender instead of Maya, of course. It is much slower progress, as you have to redo the same item multiple times to get it to export correctly such that Unreal can work with it.
Can you use GIMP? Not for every task needed, which means you have to turn to other applications to finish the jobs. Again, time consuming.
Can we use them, of course, and we have been. We also have a few members with higher end applications (primarily Maya, although a few folk with Lightwave 3D and 3DS Max, but still less than 1/4 of our art volunteers have access to a usable form), and we have seen the productivity difference. One guy with Maya is faster than 4 with Blender, even if he is one of the guys with Blender.
That is why the KS, not because we need the tools just to work, but if we want to get this done in a reasonable timeframe, we will need the tools. So we leave that in your hands. Are you all wanting this sooner with the tools, or later without?
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... a professional and you've determined in two ways that you aren't being that (you aren't working for money, and you want someone to buy this stuff, which you do not need, for you).
If you use a narrow definition of a professional as someone *paid* for their work, then, yes, our developers aren't professional because they aren't being paid.
Defining professional as having to use equipment that was not donated is a very odd definition of 'professional' I've never heard before.
But there is a larger definition of professional as someone with a technical skill set. And our developers have that technical skill set. And their technical skills exist whether they're being paid or not.
Unless you think that if doctors who donate their time at free clinics stop being 'professionals' the moment they stop being paid? Or if lawyers who do pro bono work stop being 'professional'?
But, just like you've passed judgment on the software we're looking at as being 'toys' without knowing what it is; you've passed judgment on our developers as not being 'professional' without knowing their skill set.
Again, are you psychic?
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I see someone here who has never worked with Blender, nor with GIMP, and does not comprehend the production difference.
Wrong.
Can you use Blender instead of Maya, of course. It is much slower progress, as you have to redo the same item multiple times to get it to export correctly such that Unreal can work with it.
Yes, I realize that. Still, you have to prove you can do the work however you have to for anyone to believe you can do it with any tool.
Can you use GIMP? Not for every task needed, which means you have to turn to other applications to finish the jobs. Again, time consuming.
No, Gimp can do the job. Can export to whatever format. If you were working for print, Photoshop can manage large documents better and has a better airbrush. But you're working small. There's no functional difference.
If you are a professional artist, you already have Photoshop, and other software. Plus, you know the tools you have.
Can we use them, of course, and we have been. We also have a few members with higher end applications (primarily Maya, although a few folk with Lightwave 3D and 3DS Max, but still less than 1/4 of our art volunteers have access to a usable form), and we have seen the productivity difference. One guy with Maya is faster than 4 with Blender, even if he is one of the guys with Blender.
That is why the KS, not because we need the tools just to work, but if we want to get this done in a reasonable timeframe, we will need the tools. So we leave that in your hands. Are you all wanting this sooner with the tools, or later without?
As long as you show that you can do good work, this will not be a problem. Go back and look where this exchange started: someone claiming no need to provide evidence of ability to produce quality work up front.
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So, what you're saying, Mantic, is that if the Phoenix Project shows they can do good work, you'll be happy. Right?
You're upset that you have not seen work from the Phoenix Project in a long time, since that first video that showed that 'there is a universe running and a rigged character moving about'?
That's understandable. But the Phoenix Project is saving a lot of effort for the kickstarter, all the bright and shiny things. Still, did you see the superspeed screenshot they passed out a few weeks ago? Auras are actually working, which took CoH a while to pull off.
What would it take to make you satisfied that they can do good work?
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Again, are you psychic?
My judgment is entirely based on yourself and Minotaur here in this thread defending the notion that you don't have to prove your ability to do the work to justify any donation. If you convince not just me but any potential backer that you can do good work, it doesn't matter how you budget donations.
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My judgment is entirely based on yourself and Minotaur here in this thread defending the notion that you don't have to prove your ability to do the work to justify any donation.
Well, that isn't the point I was making. There will be a demo *before* KS starts.
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What would it take to make you satisfied that they can do good work?
Given that you are using a full-featured engine which does a great deal for you already?
I think you will be expected, not just by me, but by most prospective investors, to show not just any rigged character but fully textured and normal-mapped characters in a small but complete and interactive environment. That shows that your programmers can handle the basics of interacting with the environment in the expected non-standard ways, and that your artists can use the aforementioned software to produce complete resources at a technically acceptable level. What you have now, free or otherwise, should be enough to show off what skills your team have.
If you don't show complete examples of each major aspect required by the production, you're asking people to believe you can do so on your word alone.
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BTW, after checking with the tech folk, the plan is that any software 'purchases' will be a copy for corporate use only, or in the cloud available only to active team members, or licensed. No one on development is getting their own personal purchase of software that they get to keep if they leave the project. So, this isn't a 'toys for everyone!' deal. Development tools will only be used for development by active developers.
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lapucelle brings up some good points and unfortunately all there really is to do is sit and wait for the kickstarter launch to get the finer details that people are asking about. The problem that seems to be cropping up appears to be around news of the kickstarter being announced around gaming sites and the lack of any solid visuals or defined game systems until the kickstarter actually launches and I do think it is reasonable for people to have some concerns especially when it comes to donating to a project which has little easily accessed information at the moment. There have been some other valid concerns as well that have been brought up both here on in comments sections and I'm really hoping that the weekly updates will begin to engage with these in a clear, confident and professional manner as at the moment as there seems to be a lot of half information going around. I'm sure there is a way to reach a compromise and answer some of them without compromising the unveiling plans and hopefully both sides will be both satisfied and engaged with TPP for when the full details are revealed.
Unfortunately it seems this disconnect could likely continue until the details are released alongside the kickstarter as neither side really has much leeway to give or take in the argument at the moment. Hopefully the next few weeks pass quickly and that the kickstarter presentation is able to ease some of the concerns people have shared.
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Given that you are using a full-featured engine which does a great deal for you already?
I think you will be expected, not just by me, but by most prospective investors, to show not just any rigged character but fully textured and normal-mapped characters in a small but complete and interactive environment. That shows that your programmers can handle the basics of interacting with the environment in the expected non-standard ways, and that your artists can use the aforementioned software to produce complete resources at a technically acceptable level. What you have now, free or otherwise, should be enough to show off what skills your team have.
Fully textured and normal mapped. Hm. Well, that's actually an interesting point. If they had one character fully textured, they'd essentially have the costume creator done, sans art, already. What if they had buildings or objects fully textured instead? I mean, unless you'd rather them spend time making the equivalent of a coverall that'd then be thrown away.
Technically, this guy:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-I80tPLqMuzc/UdzVwPNvAcI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/DNk8tHVWo-Y/s1600/IMG_08072013_224239.png
is fully textured. If he wasn't textured, he'd look like this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FYfZoZJEG2o/Ub_S2Ii2qCI/AAAAAAAAAJk/-1McB8ftG3s/s1600/mesh_test.png
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The problem with Mantic's argument boils down to wanting his cake and to eat it too. We show the material now, as he is effectively stomping his feet and demanding, then the new material in the KS will be incredibly limited. We delay for the KS as we have, we get comments like this where in effect he's telling us to go to hell for not showing him anything and that the KS will be a failure even before we've held it. This is being a unicorn.
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Fully textured and normal mapped. Hm. Well, that's actually an interesting point. If they had one character fully textured, they'd essentially have the costume creator done, sans art, already. What if they had buildings or objects fully textured instead? I mean, unless you'd rather them spend time making the equivalent of a coverall that'd then be thrown away.
We've shown buildings/objects fully textured already, like this example picture:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/s720x720/971211_314613645338592_325330754_n.png)
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Mm, make it one little house and you got Up there. Or... I'm remembering a very old... children's book or cartoon? About a little house and a city grew up around it?
Anyhow, how's that for a start? Can we get a better shot of that or a different one showing something a little closer?
I guess we're _all_ very nervous about the kickstarter, MWM and community both. We've got to make allowances for that.
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No, static objects use entirely different systems. Buildings, if they use normal maps, may even use a different kind of mapping -- output in batch along with lighting and other baked bits. And thousands of high school kids have made maps for 3D shooters -- it's not terribly demanding to texture a bunch of cubes and cylinders.
Further, it is just a very different process building a high resolution organic character model for normal sourcing than the most complex architecture. It deforms, uses dynamic lighting, independent normals, etc.
You will probably have to consider your demo characters throwaways, since you can't tie them into a complete character customization. Your demo won't thus be showing any dynamic stitching tricks on the character geometry either, but I doubt most people will even know that is demanded (it's specific to modular character systems, after all).
But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today (never said anything of the sort), and I am actually wanting to see you succeed. I'm just concerned about the apparent attitude that you don't have to put a lot into impressing potential investors when you put this up on kickstarter. That people will flock to throw money at you even if you don't show your ability to do what you say convincingly (which is not necessarily the same as 100% truthfully, as in the case of the aforementioned unified character geometry).
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Well, I certainly hope that's not the actual attitude of anyone on the project.
As for the rest of it, I can't say. All I can say is that I think people are working very hard on having something impressive. And I hope we'll all be impressed.
... I also hope people don't raise their hope so high they're expecting the game five seconds after the kickstarter ended. Shadowrun Returns just launched yesterday, the Space Quest sequel's still not out yet, and neither is Double Fine's adventure. And those all ended a while ago.
Until then, let's stay united, and wait and see what comes. Keep the blood pressure down, and go buy new shoes.
... well, when it knocks your socks off, you'll need them, won't you?
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No, static objects use entirely different systems. Buildings, if they use normal maps, may even use a different kind of mapping -- output in batch along with lighting and other baked bits.
Further, it is just a very different process building a high resolution organic character model for normal sourcing than teh most complext architecture. It also deforms, and so uses tangent space.
You will probably have to consider your demo characters throwaways, since you can't tie them into a complete character customization. Your demo won't thus be showing any dynamic stitching tricks on the character geometry either, but I doubt most people will even know that is demanded (it's specific to modular character systems, after all).
But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today, and I am actually wanting to see you succeed. I'm just concerned about the apparent attitude that you don't have to put a lot into impressing potential investors when you put this up on kickstarter. That people will flock to throw money at you even if you don't show your ability to do what you say convincingly (which is not necessarily the same as 100% truthfully, as in the case of the aforementioned unified character geometry).
If that was our attitude, we would not have Lauren continually begging us to release something sooner. I would not be sitting here wishing I was not holding back on things for the next 5 weeks for the KS. We know we need to show that "Yes, we can do this." To do that, however, we need to show what we can do *at that time.* Sitting here, weeks ahead of time, complaining that we're not showing anything is really frustrating, as demonstrated by Minotaur above, so you cannot be surprised people got snippy.
We've been saying for months, this is going to take time to do right, and we are saving up our material for the Kickstarter. Check out our Facebook page, you'll see regular shots from within the engine until a set point, then it slows down to a trickle. You'll see our switch from a textured model to a generic looking block setup for testing purposes, so we can verify that *we* are pulling it off, not the included Unreal material, to investors, to all of you. These are all critical steps for development.
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I think a lot of people are really setting themselves up for disappointment. It's tough to remind myself that the folks who are volunteering their time and effort at MWM to create TPP are doing just that - volunteering. This means that they likely have another full time job - so whatever they're doing, they're doing it in bits and pieces, here and there.
On the one hand, there are outsiders who are simply in love with the idea of a game designed by a community, rather than a publisher. They want to have a reason to support it. Others are looking for any reason to not support it. Now that I have a better idea of what a kickstarter is supposed to do, I'm not wondering what they're going to show me. I don't think it matters. Most have already decided to give $X dollars. How many of us have said that we'd have given 30 or 50 bucks a month to NCSoft if they'd have kept the game going?
Now, here's MWM trying very hard to get an even better game going, the only question is when will it happen. The more $ they raise, it's likely the game will be in some alpha version that much sooner.
Myself, I don't expect them to be done before the later part of 2015, and I've no idea how much time any of them put into the project on a daily or weekly basis. It's going to take as long as it takes. It's going to cost as little as possible because it's all voluntary.
I just keep telling myself that the game engine folks are allowing them to use the engine with the finances being settled later. It might be a standard deal, but it tells me that someone has done a fair job of selling a marketable skill set, if nothing else.
So, for now, I'm just patiently waiting. I'm not going to see Man of Steel in the movies. I've cancelled my Netflix account. I'll just watch YouTube for free and put that money I saved into an envelope until it's time. And when it's time, I'll make a determination at that point. Until then, it's all just wasted words, right?
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Now that I have a better idea of what a kickstarter is supposed to do, I'm not wondering what they're going to show me. I don't think it matters. Most have already decided to give $X dollars. How many of us have said that we'd have given 30 or 50 bucks a month to NCSoft if they'd have kept the game going?
It's going to take more than us. For one thing, our loyalties are divided. For another, TPP isn't actually getting much more from me than a basic level show-of-support buy in, because I do not view it as an actual replacement for the game that brought me to this dance. If the amount needed to license the engine alone is $50k, and there's more needed besides,MWM will have to win quite a few backers outside this community.
So it definitely matters what they can show. We're easy. Yes, even me, insofar as I am willing to commit. Everyone else, not so much.
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I think people have to be realistic what a KS is. It's a leap of faith. If you can produce something so detailed and polished that it looks like the game must happen, you've probably KSd too late and could have got to that state years before and better if you'd KSd earlier. Don't pledge to KS money you can't afford or expect to see back. KS know this too, hence why their rules prohibit offering lifetime subs.
Personally, I think that is remarkably disingenuous to the potential pledger.
So it definitely matters what they can show. We're easy. Yes, even me, insofar as I am willing to commit. Everyone else, not so much.
The press too. Consider Rock Paper Shotgun, which (if I remember right) was founded by some folks that were big City of Heroes fans. The writer said as much, at least, in his write-up on the project. That said, their sharp tongue and quick wit could quickly become a liability if they are definitively unimpressed.
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Personally, I think that is remarkably disingenuous to the potential pledger.
A fool and his money part quickly.
Not to be negative, but you really do have to treat Kickstarter like you're giving money to friends and family -- don't expect to get it back, but if you do, awesome! Seriously, look at 38 Studios and the state of Rhode Island. The state kicked in millions of dollars and tax breaks to help fund that studio's game development (the Copernicus mmo) and it went under with nothing to show for it. Now, put that in perspective to this. That isn't intended to scare people off, but, as much as KS says they don't support "causes", that's exactly what every single kickstarter campaign kind of is. Do you believe in the work, based on whatever has been presented to you by the time the collection plate is brought out? If yes, then donate. If no, then don't.
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Not to be negative, but you really do have to treat Kickstarter like you're giving money to friends and family -- don't expect to get it back, but if you do, awesome!
1) Video games don't constitute all kickstarters. Musicians kickstart completed albums. Board game designers kickstart games with design, art, and documentation already complete. Be careful when you generalize beyond one industry.
2) What you describe is exactly the reason that professionals with a definite portfolio are dominating the video game kickstarter landscape.
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But don't get me wrong. I don't care what you can post in this thread today, and I am actually wanting to see you succeed.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg7%2F4703%2Fmodhat2.jpg)
You could have fooled me.
Please check your attitude at the door. I don't mind debate, and I don't mind picking apart details to get at the meat of things. But when you act like a jackass with seemingly no respect for your fellows (which you've been doing), I start minding.
I'm close to locking this thread because it's basically gone its course. If you can't be considerate, send it in a PM.
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Amazing the amount of stuff this kickstarter announcement generated. I'm with Aggelakis on this one. Healthy debate is always welcome but let's remember to keep it healthy and not let it degrade.
Right now, I'm glad to see one of the development teams is about to showcase some of their work. I am optimistic but will reserve judgement until after I've seen their work. The fact they are even preparing to do this says volumes. I propose we put the tools to use debate on hold forever. If we get stuck in that, we'll never get the game. As for licenses, at the very least, consider something just for the protection of the project from lawsuits. There are plenty of licenses that will work including, but not limited too, BSD, GNU, Apache, etc.
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I'm very surprised by the amount of argument and debate that this kickstarter project has started, not in the comments at Massively, but right here on this forum.
People can donate their time and work on the project for free, but there are certain things that are not free, such as software and servers and object libraries and probably a dozen other things that I, as someone with no programming skills, am not aware of.
But did we not expect that Kickstarter would be involved at some point? Did we not know that people were going to be working on this project in their spare time? Did we not know that the software and tools necessary to make this happen cost money? And, did we not understand that those of us who are not on the project cannot dictate to those who are how to spend their time and what to spend the money that we donate to them on?
We can bicker on which tools or software are better or necessary, but if we're not on the team working on this game we can't possibly know if we're actually right. There are many considerations as to why a certain program might be necessary even if we don't think it's the 'best' one. Factors such as compatibility, as well as the previous experience, skill and comfort level that the people who will be using those tools have.
The bottom line is: if you're willing to donate your money for this project with the understanding that you're taking a risk then do so and if you're not then don't, but this uninformed bickering and deliberate attacking of other members of the community accomplishes nothing.
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The bottom line is: if you're willing to donate your money for this project with the understanding that you're taking a risk then do so and if you're not then don't, but this uninformed bickering and deliberate attacking of other members of the community accomplishes nothing.
Well for many this may be some people's first time even thinking about donating to kickstarter so naturally there may be some feelings of doubt and or uneasiness.
Instead of saying bluntly "well donate or don't." It might be better to just kindly enlighten them. Remember most are not programmers or game builders and probably don't regularly fund games. Bluntly telling them to donate or not, is like a beggar asking for change then when asked "Hey, are you really going to put this money to good use?" Simply replies, "Well why you have to be negative. Donate or don't." More than likely than not, they will simply choose to not donate even if they in their heart wanted to help out. And then the person behind them watching also thinking about given may see this and think, "man are they grumpy" and hold on to their wallets too, which is counter productive also.
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Just a heads up. MMORPG posted their version of this story a couple hours ago and got a couple NC Soft Kool-Aid drinkers in there already.
Anyone who wants to present facts or TPP team members could help that thread.
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Why yes, now that you mention it, a link to the MMORPG thread just might be helpful (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/3/view/news/read/28193/City-of-Heroes-The-Phoenix-Project-Spiritual-Successor-to-City-of-Heroes.html).
A bit of unsolicited advice: don't bother arguing the legalities of the situation with the trolls, simply posting in favor of this project (assuming you wish to post at all) is much more likely to impress the rank-and-file with the City of Heroes community.
So, for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.
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Why yes, now that you mention it, a link to the MMORPG thread just might be helpful (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/3/view/news/read/28193/City-of-Heroes-The-Phoenix-Project-Spiritual-Successor-to-City-of-Heroes.html).
A bit of unsolicited advice: don't bother arguing the legalities of the situation with the trolls, simply posting in favor of this project (assuming you wish to post at all) is much more likely to impress the rank-and-file with the City of Heroes community.
So, for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.
The trolls are right in that case, the article is wrong "MWM is a group of former City of Heroes staff" if that was true we would be sued, have flagged it up for dealing with.
Edit: and they've now changed the article
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All I can really say - in response to this whole thread - is that we do thank you all for your support, even the critical but well-meant advice. We do fully intend to have "something to show" of what we've been doing. But no, it won't be in this thread, and it will be trickling out, most likely, before the KS launches. We are encouraging people to save up, if they're the sort that usually prefer a steady regular donation, because we are trying very hard to make sure that the KS is where everybody has the doors opened at once and everybody has time to participate however they like. And we absolutely, positively intend to be showing some great stuff. Saving it for the KS has many of us on edge; I'm sure many of us are experiencing the kind of anticipatory urge to share that devs always do for the first time, and it's mildly frustrating. But we know it'll be worth it. Keep your eyes on Sept 8th!
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NC Soft Kool-Aid drinkers
*facepalms*
Isnt that what someone got called a troll for in the other article for calling tony a kool aid drinker of the anti-ncsoft sort or rather a shill?
but I guess we can call them ncsoft kool aid drinkers and shills all day and night but it's not considered trolling. Funny how that rule works in our favor at our convenience. :p (Sarcastic but slightly serious snark not directed at NoNAme in particular but a current trend I been noticing with the expectation/demanding of them giving us respect but refusing to show any semblance to anyone else at all.)
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I'm very surprised by the amount of argument and debate that this kickstarter project has started
You shouldn't be.
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Just poppin' in to pledge my support when the KS kicks off. I've been missing my CoH fix quite fiercely and have had to forcefully push my wallet back into my pocket. It spontaneously leaps out of my pocket yelling "take mah moneyz, NAO". I fear these episodes will only get more frequent as we get closer to Sept 8th. I may need an intervention soon. ;D
Keep up the good work. Looking forward to seeing new shinies trickling out.
-Asha'Man
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*facepalms*
Isnt that what someone got called a troll for in the other article for calling tony a kool aid drinker of the anti-ncsoft sort or rather a shill?
but I guess we can call them ncsoft kool aid drinkers and shills all day and night but it's not considered trolling. Funny how that rule works in our favor at our convenience. :p (Sarcastic but slightly serious snark not directed at NoNAme in particular but a current trend I been noticing with the expectation/demanding of them giving us respect but refusing to show any semblance to anyone else at all.)
"Seriously? How can this be anything but doa? Currently racking up debt (vounteers and engine) with a game that was already failing? And all of this assumes they do not cross a line and have NcSoft sue them into oblivion because of copyright."
Originally posted by Markusrind
Quantify failing? Was still financially profitable when it was shut and that is what usually causes these things to close. So a team with reasonable expectations could keep it going and still earn a profit...win win if you ask me.
"Nope. It was shown that revenue was up, but I have not seen any proof of the game being actually profitable. The amount of support gathered was less than what was put forth in a similar bid by the Galaxies fanboy's when the Nge happened to get back pre cu/nge servers (which is sad because they had similar sized player bases at that point)."
Also, you really think they would be doing this if there wasn't an agreement in place?
"Yes. This sort of extremely small, extremely tightknit niche held together by dreams I easily see doing just that. Look at original CoH, flying under the radar until Marvel saw encroachment to copyright and then they were sued into oblivion till they settled out of court."
The posts in quotes are from a MMORPG user that ironically has an avatar of himself dressed as Captain America. One of the game he is most looking forward to playing....Wildstar.
I just call it as I see it.
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I agree with NoName. These people don't have "serious, legitimate questions" - they're just spouting half-remembered "facts" they vaguely remember hearing on the internet somewhere or they're just making it up as they go along. They're sniping nasty comments from the sidelines purely for the sake of doing so and they wish us ill.
Calling them trolls is just stating the obvious. This is not hypocrisy on our part - it's just being minimally observant.
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"Seriously? How can this be anything but doa? Currently racking up debt (vounteers and engine) with a game that was already failing? And all of this assumes they do not cross a line and have NcSoft sue them into oblivion because of copyright."
Originally posted by Markusrind
Quantify failing? Was still financially profitable when it was shut and that is what usually causes these things to close. So a team with reasonable expectations could keep it going and still earn a profit...win win if you ask me.
"Nope. It was shown that revenue was up, but I have not seen any proof of the game being actually profitable. The amount of support gathered was less than what was put forth in a similar bid by the Galaxies fanboy's when the Nge happened to get back pre cu/nge servers (which is sad because they had similar sized player bases at that point)."
Also, you really think they would be doing this if there wasn't an agreement in place?
"Yes. This sort of extremely small, extremely tightknit niche held together by dreams I easily see doing just that. Look at original CoH, flying under the radar until Marvel saw encroachment to copyright and then they were sued into oblivion till they settled out of court."
The posts in quotes are from a MMORPG user that ironically has an avatar of himself dressed as Captain America. One of the game he is most looking forward to playing....Wildstar.
I just call it as I see it.
Touche, my friend. Touche.
But doesn't mean they are NCSOFT Kool-Aid drinkers. If they didn't shut down COX many of us still would have been looking forward to playing wildstar and other games also. Remember not everyone that is steaming mad at ncsoft is automatically a ncsoft backer or drinking the kool aid just as if someone promits the new game or is mad at ncsoft isn't automatically drinking the hate and destroy ncsoft Kool-Aid. Most people are actually in between and many people just don't care either way about the closing of COX truthfully. Especially those that didn't play COX, which is expected to come across in the public forums outside the COX player realm.
And the lawsuit thing and being sued and etc. have been in discussions, sometimes heated and sometimes saying the same as they said by people that despise ncsoft. Even here that discussion about legalities came up more than once.
But as I said, it's not just that article, in many other articles, many people are quick to pull the troll/ncsoft Kool-Aid drinker card anytime someone say something remotely positive about ncsoft, question the savecox cause, or just don't see what the big deal is. Which is natural because not everyone played cox and not everyone experienced a game shut down and some people will simply shrug when a game get closed and move on to the next. And just as many here cant fanthom why someone would just shrug and move on, they probably cant fathom why someone would make a big fuss about it. And in many cases I seen people from here go on the attack against said people. People here want others to understand what can happen especially when dealing with NCSOFT and want people to listen and or understand why it's important but plug their ears at anything but hate ncsoft and call anyone that is not drinking the hate ncsoft "Kool-Aid" trolls.
Trolls troll the troll which troll the troll which trolls the trolls until no one know who trolled who and the entire point is lost. All I'm saying is we as a whole should try t be a bit more understanding as much as we wish those "trolls" to understand our cause and realize that most of us was once just like them. Back in 2010, someone said anything negative or point out ncsoft business practice they was flamed off the forum (remember the term "Doom!sayers" name calling that was thrown around??) of cox because many couldn't understand it.
Yeah sometimes trolls will be trolls plain and simple but not everything that is for ncsoft or indifferent is a troll or ncsoft Kool-Aid drinker. And to be perfectly honest, some trolls are expected because at first many people of this cause wasn't the exactly the nicest people to be around when getting the word out about what happened. Many took it too far and cross the line of informing to forcing their view and emotions onto others. But as long as people continue to call each other trolls and not bothering to stop and think, then it will always be tense us vs them with us or against us. And if we are aiming to inform and change the industry, that line of thinking is very counter productive. Cant expect the other side to think and be civil if this side never bother to extend and try to be civil themselves and instead just call everything and anyone outside a troll.
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You shouldn't be.
Yes, it's almost as if someone heading a potentially competing product has spurred on the quarreling.
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1. The reality is that it is a superficial PR piece and nothing more -- KS on 9/8.
(etc.,)
I said it on Massively, and I'll say it here - this /isn't/ a PR piece. Massively have ran an article about the fact that some of the team did an interview with Polygon. We didn't put anything out there, this wasn't off a press release from me - Polygon, who interviewed us before, wanted to know how we were getting on, and we told them.
Various other gaming sites, including Massively, have 'lifted' that interview and used it to create their own article :) Other sites have picked up on it and asked to carry out interview with us, as a result of it. To date, I have only sent out one press release, and that was the one announcing our presence to the world :)
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Ignore the uniformed.
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Ignore the uniformed.
What do you have against uniforms?
Personally i'm looking forward to the Kickstarter. There have been a few Kickstarters that were successfully completed and then the team took the money and ran, but i've seen many, many more where it actually resulted in a completed project. And, of course, there are all the Kickstarter campaigns that don't meet their goals, which means you're out no money at all. Depending on my current finances i'll probably pledge something in the upper tiers, but since most of my creative work is making quasi-robotic looking sculptures out of scrap and assorted materials or designing assorted setting concepts, characters and mechanicals for RPGs and fictional settings as verbal and visual sketches that later become sculptures there's not a lot of work i do that readily translates into a video game or general 3D engine ready art.
Cases in point:(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=fc03.deviantart.net%2Ffs48%2Ff%2F2009%2F198%2Ff%2F7%2Fr0t0r_by_Aberrant_Tech.gif)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/335943_384822458247132_1967129030_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/922820_521413291254714_42449136_n.jpg)(https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12028_521413844587992_2108427390_n.jpg)
So most of my support would be the Kickstarter and helping with word of mouth type stuff.
Regardless i intend to do what i can to help MWM and TPP succeed.
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I like.
That second to last picture looks like something I could see in a game, armed with a turrent or something. At first glance I thought it was that little robot guide thing off Doom 3. Real good work.
And that last picture looks like something that I seen in a Tool video. That definitely could be some steam punk based boss there in a game. Like a twisted version of clockwork. Good stuff there.
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(https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12028_521413844587992_2108427390_n.jpg)
Hexadecimal?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=images3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20130418153121%2Ftoonami%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fde%2FReboot-Hexadecimal.jpg)
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I said it on Massively, and I'll say it here - this /isn't/ a PR piece. Massively have ran an article about the fact that some of the team did an interview with Polygon. We didn't put anything out there, this wasn't off a press release from me - Polygon, who interviewed us before, wanted to know how we were getting on, and we told them.
Various other gaming sites, including Massively, have 'lifted' that interview and used it to create their own article :) Other sites have picked up on it and asked to carry out interview with us, as a result of it. To date, I have only sent out one press release, and that was the one announcing our presence to the world :)
[/color]
This is very positive, guys! The media is, voluntarily,still following City of Heroes, and it's community! All I see is a win/win.
City of Heroes is still getting press, and we, the gaming community, gets another superhero MMO! :)
/em holdtorch
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Just my quick advice: if you're not ready to show off the costume editor yet, you're not ready to show off the game. We may all have our reasons for staying as long as we did, but the initial draw of CoH was its unprecedented flexibility of character creation.
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Yes, it's almost as if someone heading a potentially competing product has spurred on the quarreling.
I don't think you'll have to worry about anything but promises coming from the competition.
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I said it on Massively, and I'll say it here - this /isn't/ a PR piece. Massively have ran an article about the fact that some of the team did an interview with Polygon. We didn't put anything out there, this wasn't off a press release from me - Polygon, who interviewed us before, wanted to know how we were getting on, and we told them.
Various other gaming sites, including Massively, have 'lifted' that interview and used it to create their own article :) Other sites have picked up on it and asked to carry out interview with us, as a result of it. To date, I have only sent out one press release, and that was the one announcing our presence to the world :)
I'm going to nitpick since you quoted me -- PR piece = public relations piece, not press release piece. You may have issued one press release that is entirely unrelated, but your team has waded into public relations by conducting these interviews. Similarly (and as a small piece of advice), you may have a public relations (PR) nightmare on your hands if you have your team members running into multiple threads combatting trolls. ( ' :
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Nyx, seriously amazing looking work!
@Tiberian Fiend Sadly, I have to agree. I no longer expect anything to come of the H&V project, for various reasons. Not least of which is that if GG keeps consistently slandering the other projects, she's gonna chase all her support away eventually.
Also, on the character creator - TPP has been hoarding the good stuff for the KS like parents hiding the Christmas presents in the closet. I can't say any details because that would be a breach of trust to the TPP members who've made casual mentions in Skype and Facebook chat, but there's plenty to show off. Oh wait, no, I can say this much: Blockman isn't always there because there's only blockman. Sometimes - I suspect even most of the time - he's there because the models that could be in his place are a surprise.
In the meantime TPP's new site should come out soon, and the update whenever they finally get the last tangles unraveled in the restructure. Stuff keeps happening there. But that should all provide relevant information as far as how to respond to the kickstarter (for those who still want to see some proof of stability and such first - which is perfectly fine and understandable).
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I'm going to nitpick since you quoted me -- PR piece = public relations piece, not press release piece. You may have issued one press release that is entirely unrelated, but your team has waded into public relations by conducting these interviews. Similarly (and as a small piece of advice), you may have a public relations (PR)...
Ah, apologies. PR teams to stand for press release here. Excuse my Englishness :-)
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Ah, apologies. PR teams to stand for press release here. Excuse my Englishness :-)
I think it depends on the line of work you're in as well...
Your Englishness seems fine to me. :)
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Looking forward to the Kickstarter which I think will be oversubscribed.
I've never donated to one before. Can someone in the UK donate to a US Kickstarter?
If I'm legally allowed I will be donating to this one AND to the other Plan Zs when they start.
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I've never donated to one before. Can someone in the UK donate to a US Kickstarter?
If I'm legally allowed I will be donating to this one AND to the other Plan Zs when they start.
I know of no reason why you can't contribute. And you can contribute to 100 Kickstarter projects if you feel like spending the money.
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I know of no reason why you can't contribute. And you can contribute to 100 Kickstarter projects if you feel like spending the money.
JenessaVR - thanks for the information.
Your approval acknowledged but probably won't invest in 100 projects.
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*waives credit cards around*
Here take it...just bring us back our Cities! :D
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The bottom line is: if you're willing to donate your money for this project with the understanding that you're taking a risk then do so and if you're not then don't, but this uninformed bickering and deliberate attacking of other members of the community accomplishes nothing.
I believe like most of us here, I want a game like CoH again, since that may not ever happen (*curses NCSoft*) I have tried the others, such as CO, Marvel Heroes, and DCUO and both of them just do not give me the same pleasure or fulfillment as CoH.
My next option would be to recreate or help to re-create a "CoH-Like" world, the world that I truly miss.
I'm more of hands on tech, networking, systems, etc so I really cant help MWM with my skills from here. So the only thing I can help with; is helping them getting what those poor volunteering fans need to recreate this world again.
Kickstarter is a gamble, that being said, if you choose to donate please do not donate more what you cannot afford.
It is smart to do all the research into the company and their dev's to properly gauge the success of the project.
I would like to see more proof of concept and my guess is we will get that on or before Sept 8th.
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I look forward to what they have for viewing and I hope I find a worthy receptacle for my funds. I don't expect the lvl of detail that a recently released Saint's Row IV model creator would have,being a mmo, but I hope they can at least match the quantity and slick design. I have faith in all the teams , and I hope this showing validates that.
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Just my quick advice: if you're not ready to show off the costume editor yet, you're not ready to show off the game. We may all have our reasons for staying as long as we did, but the initial draw of CoH was its unprecedented flexibility of character creation.
We have the costume editor mostly done. The problem is not the editor, it is the costumes. Making them requires tools, which we are in short supply of. While we can show it off with blockhead, it would give an incomplete picture of how things actually are going.
That is something people really do not understand. The coding is the easy part. The real challenge is the art.
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These tools would be acquired with the funds from Kickstarter? I'm in! < 8)eyeing up the the Inside Man Tier!>
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We have the costume editor mostly done. The problem is not the editor, it is the costumes. Making them requires tools, which we are in short supply of. While we can show it off with blockhead, it would give an incomplete picture of how things actually are going.
That is something people really do not understand. The coding is the easy part. The real challenge is the art.
That raises the question - can you crowdsource it? If costume parts can be made in publicly usable tools, then building the costume system where new parts can be easily inserted into the game assets could alleviate a lot of workload from the costume designers and shifting the focus away from having to make the costume parts themselves and towards ensuring there are no quality, compatibility or copyright issues that prevent them from being added to the game assets.
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MWM is basically already crowdsourcing. All the folks are volunteers. Anyone is free to submit stuff, as long as it can be imported, though obviously the leads have veto power.
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I know - I mean after launch.
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I haven't seen anything that says launch will remove the volunteer-driven (crowdsourced) basis.
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Awesome.
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We were asked to do an interview with incgamers this week. The first part is here: http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/05/the-phoenix-project-developers-talk-passion-grieving-and-movin/
I'm posting that link for completeness, mostly. Given the discussion in this thread, some of you may be interested in part two, where they talk about money and the business side of things:
http://www.incgamers.com/2013/08/the-phoenix-project-interview-part-2-monetisation-and-the-future
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Yeah, I was really thrilled with how well that interview covered the practical aspects so many people have been asking for.