NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us

[CoyoteSeven]

Maybe if you had enough money to buy NCSoft several times over then you could attempt a hostile take over. But I'm pretty sure no one here is Donald Trump.

[Sleepy Wonder]

Maybe if you had enough money to buy NCSoft several times over then you could attempt a hostile take over. But I'm pretty sure no one here is Donald Trump.

Well, hypothetically, if someone had a blank check to purchase CoH, around the ballpark of $80-$90m (All IP rights + All game code and player data) - what do you think NCSoft would do?

I mean, if that amount is inflated, surely NCSoft would be in a bit of a position, wouldn't they? They would face pressure from shareholders for saying no, but on the other hand, actually having someone who is seriously interested in paying that amount might cause them to re-evaluate the property more closely because they would be curious about what makes it so "lucrative" to the buyer.. and may end up holding onto it until they figure that out.

Plus, I have to wonder what other factors come into play, or if it doesn't matter at all. NCSoft said they couldn't find a "suitable new home" at one point, which may have been a polite way of saying "We didn't get the money we asked for" or maybe they really wouldn't sell the IP to some Joe Blow who just say, won the lottery.

Would it matter where the money came from, who was really buying it, etc? For the sake of argument, if Google was willing to pay $100m for it - wouldn't NCSoft be stupid not to think really hard about WHY? I mean, what if Google wasn't interested in profiting, but rather, turning CoH into a thriving, innovative community for the sake of the greater good, and NCSoft simply couldn't understand those sorts of reasons?

I'm just wondering how "hostile" it would have to be (price wise) for different scenarios, and if the price would be different depending on the purchaser or reasons for acquisition.

I keep coming back to the one-last-signature ordeal and I'm really wishing I knew what "compromise" nobody could agree on.

[Quinch]

If they were one signature away from letting Paragon buy itself out, then the question has to arise: what changed to make them balk at that last signature?

Well, a question to lead with would be, "did they intend for the sale to be a viable prospect in the first place?" It could have been thrown out right at the very end, or it might have been something unacceptable that Paragon thought they could bargain down to something acceptable.

One thing that makes me think that NCsoft was playing a foul game is one thing that hasn't been said, and who it hasn't been said by.

"I'm not exactly sure where the sticking points were, but in the logistics of business there's always some sticking point somewhere [on which] people just aren't willing to budge and I think that's where we ended up. There were one or two points where neither side could budge"

I'm sure Matt is aware that NCsoft is being raked over the coals by CoH's players. If NCsoft had been dealing fairly, all it would have taken to defuse most, if not all of that bad will towards them would have been simply to say so - even an offhand comment how whatever the sticking point was reasonable or at least understandable would have worked wonders for a company they held no ill will towards. Instead, all he said was there was something NCsoft was asking for that Paragon wasn't able to give, and that it was one single thing, right at the finish line when all other windows opportunity were closing makes me think the negotiations failure was premeditated and the decision was made long before they began.

[Rust]

Reading that Gamasutra article is way depressing. Basically we the players have no power whatsoever. The publishers have all the gold and so they make all the rules, and the only thing we can do is sit there and take it.

Look at it this way - CoX's closure and the community response to it was such that we probably shifted the landscape for this sort of thing. Guild Wars' recent move to pure Automation may have very well been a direct result of the campaign to save the City.

We may not have saved City of Heroes, but I'd like to think maybe we saved someone else's favorite game from immediate shut down.

[Segev]

I guess I was vague in my question.  Let me try this again:

Rust, how does not selling the IP "boost up the bottom line" of NCSoft?

Father Xmas, why does your theory necessitate NCSoft NOT selling the IP?

Actually, it's pretty simple: as long as they own the IP, it is an asset against which they can leverage financial value. It doesn't boost the bottom line, but it boosts the "value of the company" line. As long as they own it, they could liquidate it (in theory) at any time. The moment they do liquidate it, they get a one-time boost to the bottom-line that is clearly a one-time boost to any stock holder interested enough to bother complaining in the first place.

Add in that there was an effort that - so we are given to understand, anyway - came down to one more signature before something blew up, and we see reason to suspect that NCSoft may not be confident that any of these hypothetical prospective buyers will be able to meet their requirements to make the sale "okay," either. Negotiations are not cheap; failed negotiations cost everybody except the lawyers money. It's easier to reject when you don't think there's a fair chance of success, than to explore it.

[JaguarX]

Now I though their reply to it was "unsuccessful in finding a suitable partner". Key word there, partner. Meaning they wasnt ready to totally let go of the IP and stuff, but seemed to be looking for development team, probably one they dont have to pay but still can make some side money from as publisher  and lease. If that is the case, no telling what the terms were, and given that even Paragon people started to have trouble sometimes with the code even after working on it for years, I wouldnt be surprised if "a suitable partner" meant someone that knew what they was doing or was willing to allow a plant of ncsoft ex-guys, but the new studios have to pay them, to show them how to get around the inner workings of the game.

Or no telling. When looking for partner, both parties come into the deal looking for specific stuff and many times it just dont line up.

[Pinnacle Blue]

One thing's for certain-- when the various NDAs expire, we'll find out for sure what really happened.

And I think we're all going to get freshly pissed off about it.

[FatherXmas]

One thing's for certain-- when the various NDAs expire, we'll find out for sure what really happened.

And I think we're all going to get freshly pissed off about it.

Who says the NDAs, whatever NDAs you are talking about, have an expiration date. 

Sign here and you aren't allowed to disclose the contents of this agreement under the penalty of us suing you for all you are worth till the your end of days.

[CoyoteSeven]

Who says the NDAs, whatever NDAs you are talking about, have an expiration date. 

Sign here and you aren't allowed to disclose the contents of this agreement under the penalty of us suing you for all you are worth till the your end of days.

So if you disclose the information the day before you die, there will be no consequences. That's assuming you're aware of your impending death.

[JaguarX]

So if you disclose the information the day before you die, there will be no consequences. That's assuming you're aware of your impending death.

and assuming they actually kick the bucket as scheduled.

"Good news. We made a mistake, you will not die tomorrow. You actually have at least ten years left. Why are not smiling? I just said you will live. :p

[Pinnacle Blue]

Who says the NDAs, whatever NDAs you are talking about, have an expiration date. 

Sign here and you aren't allowed to disclose the contents of this agreement under the penalty of us suing you for all you are worth till the your end of days.

As I understand it, the reason we haven't had full disclosure is because the NDAs were tied to various assorted severance packages.  I could be wrong.  What I really want is for someone to violate the hell out of them, but that'll never happen.

[CC SK TT]

If as I read it, Cox was spinning off 2mm usd a year post expenses, at most, its worth 20-40mm usd as an 'asset'; 5-10% return on a given investment.  IP has value but realistically, what value(?), its a 3d rendering/model game which, frankly, is a dime a dozen for tech.  If I were a shareholder and I found out they turned down a 20mm bid, I would be very unhappy - at the moment that asset is making nothing and its likelihood of making anything is dropping by the day.  I wouldn't be 'oh no, xyz software inc now has the tech for rendering a game of 40 year old men in spandex in 3d over a server' because so does everyone (including NCsoft).  If xyz software could then turn that 2mm post expenses into 10 by changing the game or whathaveyou, that's because NCsoft wasn't smart enough to do so, but as an NCsoft shareholder, that's irrelevant to maximizing their current share price (I am not a NCsoft shareholder!).

If I were a billionaire, I would bid NCsoft 20mm usd for the rights/tech/software/updated software and frankly, would be expecting that bid to get absolutely blasted/hit.  If it were relaunched tomorrow by CC SK TT Software Inc, there is no way it would net 2mm a year given people have moved on, heck, it likely wouldn't net anything in a rebuildup period.  20mm in their bank account would be a great deal for them vs an 'asset' making them precisely zero in the meantime.

edit - if I were a billionaire, I would bid 10mm because there is no way it could have a chance of pulling 2mm a year net post expenses.  The value as a not going concern is basically zero outside the 'yea, but I could make a movie based on the ideas' or somesuch craziness.  Now that NCsoft has pissed away almost a year, the value of Cox has almost become zero to be honest.  As this billionaire, I would only buy it because maybe it could make me some money down the road and I love the game but it would never beat just buying a corporate hybrid bond and calling it a day and taking 6% for not even using my brain, let alone trying to figure out how to get all of us to monetize this asset.  NCsoft basically flushed most of the value a year ago and by not monetizing it when there were subscribers paying, has turned an asset into nothing more than a big zero.  Witness their stock price and yea, that's pretty telling.

[CoyoteSeven]

And this is why capitalism sucks.

[Segev]

And this is why capitalism sucks.

Not at all. This could be done by the caprice of government under any other system. Without capitalism, we likely never would have had CoH to begin with.

[General Idiot]

It should perhaps be noted that without NCSoft we would likely have never had CoH to begin with, or for as long as we did. We can justifiably be annoyed with them for closing it well before its time, but until that decision was made they were pretty good to the game.

...I'm still not buying any more of their games, though. Unless Wildstar by some miracle turns out to be the next CoH, anyway.

[therain93]

Well, hypothetically, if someone had a blank check to purchase CoH, around the ballpark of $80-$90m (All IP rights + All game code and player data) - what do you think NCSoft would do?

I mean, if that amount is inflated, surely NCSoft would be in a bit of a position, wouldn't they? They would face pressure from shareholders for saying no, but on the other hand, actually having someone who is seriously interested in paying that amount might cause them to re-evaluate the property more closely because they would be curious about what makes it so "lucrative" to the buyer.. and may end up holding onto it until they figure that out.

Plus, I have to wonder what other factors come into play, or if it doesn't matter at all. NCSoft said they couldn't find a "suitable new home" at one point, which may have been a polite way of saying "We didn't get the money we asked for" or maybe they really wouldn't sell the IP to some Joe Blow who just say, won the lottery.

Would it matter where the money came from, who was really buying it, etc? For the sake of argument, if Google was willing to pay $100m for it - wouldn't NCSoft be stupid not to think really hard about WHY? I mean, what if Google wasn't interested in profiting, but rather, turning CoH into a thriving, innovative community for the sake of the greater good, and NCSoft simply couldn't understand those sorts of reasons?

I'm just wondering how "hostile" it would have to be (price wise) for different scenarios, and if the price would be different depending on the purchaser or reasons for acquisition.

I keep coming back to the one-last-signature ordeal and I'm really wishing I knew what "compromise" nobody could agree on.

Actually, I don't think NCsoft would hesitate to sell if an offer for 80-90 million was made.  Here's the rub: the only way something like this would EVER happen is if the person/entity making the offer was operating out of passion rather than profit motive, because there are such better ways to make money, like just starting a new game from scratch.

[Mantic]

NDAs are  effectively a gentleman's agreement in this age of internet anonymity. Just saying.

[CoyoteSeven]

Not at all. This could be done by the caprice of government under any other system. Without capitalism, we likely never would have had CoH to begin with.

Actually you can't really be certain that it would not exist without Capitalism. I suppose it all depends on the reasons a person or group of persons have for undergoing such a large creative endeavor. Not everyone is always in it for the money. Though sometimes, that's the only reason they're in it for.

Certainly we would all still be in love with this game even if it were obviously failing. How many nice things can you no longer enjoy, because of "market pressure" or "shareholder politics" or whatever it is called. Tyrannies of both the majority and the minority. Just because someone else doesn't like it means you can't enjoy it anymore. How is that fair?

"City of Heroes" could just as well fall into the category of an interactive art piece. Almost every video game could be interpreted in that way. The few that are done as art pieces could be engaging and sublime. But what do you get when your motivation is purely profit? Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. Perhaps a bad example, but a bad game like that would have never even happened if money was not the ultimate, underlying goal.

Yeah, maybe I'm just dreaming. Maybe I'm just tired of losing things I like because someone else didn't like it. Maybe I'm tired of big business acting like big bullies and taking their ball home when things don't go their way. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Mantic]

It should perhaps be noted that without NCSoft we would likely have never had CoH to begin with, or for as long as we did. We can justifiably be annoyed with them for closing it well before its time, but until that decision was made they were pretty good to the game.

...I'm still not buying any more of their games, though. Unless Wildstar by some miracle turns out to be the next CoH, anyway.

This.

NCSoft helped make City of Heroes the great game it was, and were a company I enjoyed dealing with. Their major shareholder, Nexon, is another company that I have long enjoyed dealing with. Something was obviously happening internally to set NCSoft America on this self destructive path even before Paragon Studio came under the axe. Considering the complaints levied by many former US employees, relationships were often  strained with the Korean management, and possibly growing hostile generally between the US and Korean offices. Also, the leadership was apparently changing at the US branch, and new people may have simply been eager to sever as many legacy affiliations as possible, since they felt no affinity with nor responsibility to anything that came before.

So, although I never had any other complaint about NCSoft, they have lost me as a future customer barring some pretty significant backtracking and customer relations effort. It's no major loss to me at this time, though, as they are no longer offering anything I would be interested in (having already done away with several other games in addition to City of Heroes which I did find appealing...)

[Bloodspeaker2]

Fair enough; I don't care about them, either.