Author Topic: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)  (Read 45186 times)

houtex

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 03:38:47 AM »
Because it lacked soul - there wasn't really a spark there - it was pretty entertaining and pretty well made, but lacked any real magic.

o.0

I really don't get this comment, but I think it's because I'm a rather easily entertained, dumb animal who doesn't mind people reinventing something and tossing out some canon to do it.  Heck, I enjoyed Speed Racer way too much.  Now that I mention it, I wanna watch it again.  I just... I guess it's so bad it's good.  And it's pretty and flashy. :)
 
Anyway, in all seriousness, I would *love* to have you cite multiple examples of a superhero... well, no, any type of movie... that has this spark and soul quality you seek.  I'm not being flippant.  I really would like to know. 
 
As Spock said once... "I am understandably curious."
 
I'm no good for that list, as I see the spark and soul in all kinds of movies.  Man of Steel included.  Which is why I'm really 'fused now...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:52:44 AM by houtex »

Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 11:54:42 AM »
I've yet to see Man of Steel, but for me the first Christopher Reeves film still has 'magic'.  I still "believe that a man can fly" every time I watch it, but the part that really cinches it for me is when he's not wearing the costume and takes the glasses off and becomes Superman for a moment in Lois' apartment.  With that small moment I'm immersed in this alternate reality where things don't have to make sense the way they do in our own.  The rules are different there and that's okay - if we get in trouble, Superman will save us.

Also: I thought Speed Racer was a pretty awesome movie.  They didn't go out of their way to make the source material into something grim, gritty, and "realistic", but rather kept the stylized fantasy of it.  The main issue with the movie, IMO, was pacing.  It drags in some spots and rushes a bit too much in others.  Not 'magical', mind you, but a good movie.

What makes a movie 'magical' is not something I can quantify, though.  All I can say is sometimes a movie does something that literally sends a shivery shock through my nervous system, and that rare shiver is what I'd call 'magic'.  Sometimes a movie can only do it the first time, and sometimes it's so powerful (like that aforementioned Christopher Reeves moment) that it will happen every time.

(Apologies if I'm getting it wrong and it's "Reeve" rather than "Reeves".)
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Lightslinger

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 02:56:38 PM »
Saw it twice this weekend, once at the midnight premier with my wife, then again yesterday with my 4 year old son.

I loved it, wife loved it, son loved it.

I recognize its not perfect, definitely had its flaws with pacing but overall I really, really enjoyed it.

I loved the new suit. It's not change for change's sake, it's an update. As CoH aged and grew and new costume pieces were released I was constantly tweaking Lightslinger's looks. His extra costume slots were constantly in transition and only once was his "main" costume revamped. This is the same for Superman, the costume is still basically the same, just darker and no red trunks. I'm definitely in the "time for the trunks to go" crowd, so there is that bias :p

The movie had pacing issues, some of the dialogue was stilted, especially on Krypton, and Cavill's performance was a little wooden, though I liken that to the script more than anything. These are problems that especially haunt origin stories, so they can definitely be ironed out in the future.

Overall myself and everyone else I've talked to loved Man of Steel and for the first time ever I'm really looking forward to the cinematic future of the DCU.

ParagonKid

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 03:51:16 PM »
Regarding Zod's defeat:

What people are forgetting is that even as long ago as John Byrne's Man of Steel mini series in 1986 that introduced the modern era Superman, Supes had to kill and did, kill.

Superman ended up on an alternate Earth where three Kryptonian criminals had run rampant and slaughtered most of the world's population. Then they became bored and made it quite clear they intended to travel to other worlds and do the same thing. Superman, seeing no other choice, killed them with Kryptonite. This event horrified and scarred him so much, that is when he made his 'no killing' vow and also helped set up his 'world of cardboard' pathology of holding back since he saw what could happen with his kind of power and no restraint.

I believe this is what the movie was trying to parallel with Zod's death and the massive destruction battling him and the other Kyrptonians caused. This is still an origin movie and these are harsh lessons and consequences Clark needs to learn to become the Superman we all know and love. A good writer will use this to develop Superman's character further for the next movie.

Lightslinger

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 04:41:14 PM »
Regarding Zod's defeat:

What people are forgetting is that even as long ago as John Byrne's Man of Steel mini series in 1986 that introduced the modern era Superman, Supes had to kill and did, kill.

Superman ended up on an alternate Earth where three Kryptonian criminals had run rampant and slaughtered most of the world's population. Then they became bored and made it quite clear they intended to travel to other worlds and do the same thing. Superman, seeing no other choice, killed them with Kryptonite. This event horrified and scarred him so much, that is when he made his 'no killing' vow and also helped set up his 'world of cardboard' pathology of holding back since he saw what could happen with his kind of power and no restraint.

I believe this is what the movie was trying to parallel with Zod's death and the massive destruction battling him and the other Kyrptonians caused. This is still an origin movie and these are harsh lessons and consequences Clark needs to learn to become the Superman we all know and love. A good writer will use this to develop Superman's character further for the next movie.

Yeah, I think the rampant destruction in Metropolis and his having to kill Zod will be a HUGE factor in forming this Superman's moral compass. Man of Steel was very much an origin movie, this was one untested farmboy versus multiple warrior-bred Kryptonians, he did the best he could. Future sequels can now play off this origin as to WHY he is the no-killing, super protective Superman we all know.

Also, did anyone else catch all the H.R. Geiger inspired stuff in this movie? The Kryptonian design felt right at home with Alien/Prometheus world. The prequel comic has a REALLY strong Alien-esque vibe, except its from the point of view of the aliens, ha.

Really hope they explore that whole Kara Zor-El, Dev-Em (possible Doomsday) in future sequels, very good set up.

Lightslinger

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 05:19:20 PM »

1) The tornado scene.  Pretty dumb.  You DO NOT tell Clark to 'get your mother to the overpass.'  You protest and say "us or the dog, Clark!" and Clark goes to save the dog anyway in defiance... gets back, dog saved... not having done anything spectacular or revealing... and everyone survives the experience... until Jonathon keels over anyway due to the stress.  Heart attack, burst blood vessel in the brain... or maybe they're walking out and an unseen piece of something catches him from above... whatever.  And whatever it is keeps him alive long enough for him, and Martha, to ensure Clark doesn't do something 'dumb' like superspeed him to a hospital, whereupon the same point is made... You can't save us all, and you can't yet reveal yourself.

Agreed, the tornado scene could have definitely been done better. I think the point that his Dad, even to his death, believed he had to keep his identity a secret is a great one, I just think he should have died better than saving the dog.



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3) "On your right side, you see the ever inching closer to you heat vision from General Zod.  My it's hot, isn't it?  And noisy too!  Goodness me, it DOES seem rather dangerous, yes?  Better not let it touch you!  Now, if you'll notice, to your left side, plenty of empty space with which us four 'victims' can escape.  And we're walking... and we're walking..."  Seriously, there was THAT MUCH TIME, as well as space.  So either they were just absolutely the dumbest people on the Earth and deserved to be baconized, or Zod was just playing around with Kal, making a gigantic point of "I will NEVER stop toying with them, torturing them, and you, until you KILL ME."   Meaning that a twitch of his eyes, or his head, and they're toast.  I have to believe that was the case.  Still, seriously.  Just... GO TO YOUR LEFT, people!

Saw MoS twice this weekend, there is most definitely a giant pile of rubble that the people get trapped next to.

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3a) So they can only be FIRIN' MAH LAZORS! straight out of their eyes, direct linear aim, regardless of where they're looking?  No, wait, Clark did a cauterizing heat thing on Lois, so that's not true.  So... how exactly did Clark keep Zod from offin' those people?  Zod's eyes were NOT aimed out his right corners of his eyelids.  He *MUST* have been toying then.  Forcing the point.

Definitely getting into Big Bang Theory fanboy dissection here...but Zod had just learned how to fire the eye lasers about 5 minutes prior. And even then it showed he didn't have great control of it.

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4) Which leads me to:  Zod... dies?!  Really?  So... that's all there is to it?  Twist of the head and off switch?!  No less than 5 people saw this directly.  Superman just made himself vulnerable to brute force.  I have severe difficulty in believing that Lex or whomever can't exploit that.  Certainly Doomsday and Darkseid could.  You can shoot them with missiles, big ass bullets, but all that you really need to do is get him to crane his head in just the right way, then have a gigantic shove on top of that... no more Supes. 

I've always thought this, Superman's physiology is exactly like our's, just insanely tough. So an injury that can kill us can kill Supes with enough force. It just takes the force of another Kryptonian or a DC cosmic level villain to do it.

Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2013, 09:03:01 PM »
Yeah, Superman can die by having his neck broken just like anyone else... if you have the strength to do it.

I just got back from seeing it, and I really liked Henry Cavill's Superman, though he needs to trim his chest hair so it's not showing in costume.  And that costume sucks, but I'd let it slide as a version of the new 52 costume if the S didn't have that mesh texture robbing it of colour.  The red, at least, needs to be as bright and bold as the cape.

The action scenes would have been awesome if they weren't so shaky and out of focus. 

And there seems to have been a little joke towards the Batman movie.  At one point Zod screams "WHERE IS THE CODEX!" and I swear they used the same filtering they used for "WHERE IS THE JOKER!" because it sounded almost identical.

I'm wondering if the guy on the bridge was Lex, which would make that whole bus scene a bit reminiscent of Smallville.

While it was funny, I don't think Superman should have made a modern sculpture out of that guy's truck and logs.

The kiss with Lois seemed awkward with no build up.

And there's a war going on in my head about Perry White.  I really liked Larry Fishburne in the role (I mean, he does pack a bit of awesomeness), but he doesn't look the part.  And that earring... I actually think I could get over it if he just didn't have that earring.

All-in-all, though, I think I liked the movie better than Nolan's Batman 1 & 3 at least.
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ParagonKid

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 05:00:07 AM »
While it was funny, I don't think Superman should have made a modern sculpture out of that guy's truck and logs.

He did almost the exact same thing in a similar situation on Smallville to the pickup trucks belonging to some high school jerks.
It worked a little better then because he was a high-schooler himself and less mature.

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And there's a war going on in my head about Perry White.  I really liked Larry Fishburne in the role (I mean, he does pack a bit of awesomeness), but he doesn't look the part.  And that earring... I actually think I could get over it if he just didn't have that earring.

I was OK with him, but less about Steve Lombard (who is admittedly a way more obscure character). Visually, he should be a mulleted meat-head. Character-wise, he was a little off. In the comic, he's basically a straw chauvinist pig who puts down Clark because he's not 'manly' enough, but he's also a guy who'll run into a burning building to help someone and carry out an injured co-worker while the Daily Planet building collapses around them. Near the end of the movie, he wouldn't need Perry's prompting to stay and help a trapped woman instead of running. But, like in the movie, he totally would hit on Lois, get rejected and then hit on "2nd Place Girl" without missing a step (and rightly get rejected again).


Another nitpick: When Clark is using his heat vision to tunnel to the ship trapped in the ice, shouldn't here have been steam? Like, LOTS of boiling hot steam? Not a problem for him mind you, but it would be for Lois who was following behind.

FemFury

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 07:07:30 PM »
Maybe it's just because I saw the movie on Father's Day, but...

In the movie "Man of Steel", the thing I liked most, and the thing I liked least, were both related to the father characters.

I really liked the Jor-El of this movie. He's a bit of scientist-action-hero. And what we see of both him and Lady Lara, they fit as worthy parents to Superman. Not suggesting a genetic destiny thing, mind you. More of the fact that their efforts and striving are courageous and determined. And it seems fitting that they are repaid with a heroic legacy, as their posthumous reward.

And Jor-El joins Babylon 5's Michael Garibaldi on the list of people who are dangerously competent even as an uploaded shadow of their consciousness in a computer system.

The thing I liked least about the movie was Jonathan Kent. Now, Kevin Costner was a good casting choice, and acts the part well. No blame on him. It's more the writing of the character.

When Clark asks "Should I have let them die?", Jonathan Kent says "Maybe".

No, this just doesn't work for me. Jonathan and Martha Kent are Superman's moral compass. He's not supposed to be perfect, but he is supposed to be helping Clark develop in a way that leads to Superman.

Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 09:57:19 PM »
Yeah, Jonathan Kent advocating the death of a bunch of kids is a bit odd.
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houtex

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2013, 06:11:12 AM »
He wasn't advocating the death of kids.  He was advocating the importance of Not Being Seen.  He was *afraid* that Clark would be taken away from him and Martha... and people who are afraid make bad speeches.

His desire to keep Clark 'safe from them' is the driving force there... he irrationally says "Maybe", but only because he's a little anguished that it may be too late to save Clark from being taken... and he should have said more truthfully.... "I don't know."  Which is still a 'maybe' answer, but less definite, less harsh.

I took the "Maybe" line to be the epitome of a father trying to save his kid, to the exclusion of anyone else.  Couldn't say "yes", obviously, but dammit, Clark, you are gonna get TAKEN if you don't knock that crap off.

Further, this leads into Clark's disappearing act every time he saves people.  He'll save them, but at the expense of a normal life:  "Great.  Starting over, yet again.  But I'm saving people, so it's worth it."  And this, I think, is why the line is what it is... odd, but in context, important.

Magus Prime

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2013, 10:02:34 AM »
Just finished reading Mark Waid's review which can be found here:

http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/

Waid is easily one of the best Superman writers, IMO.  I can go on but I'll just leave it at that because the point I'm trying to make is that I disagree, or, rather, don't wholly agree with his thoughts on the film which are similar to a lot of the thoughts expressed in this thread.

I think the problem is largely due to the fact that we are indoctrinated.  We were all weaned on a Superman who doesn't kill.  This is commandment number one, the golden rule, ingrained in the very fabric of our being.  (It's the reason why I scoop bugs up and put them outside.)  Which is why a large part of me was alarmed at the finality of Zod's end.  It was just a gut reaction.  Part of me said, "That shouldn't have happened."  Concurrently, another part of me was already saying, "Superman just killed someone.  Extrapolate."  As I was walking out of the theater I got to wondering what I would have done if faced with the same circumstances.  Yeah, I probably would have snapped his neck.

First, we must ask why things are the way they are.  Why is Superman opposed to killing?  Because he so easily can?  Because it's morally reprehensible?  All right answers but the one I was looking for was because he is the shining example.  Our idealized version of the perfect man and thus he must be written that way.  The writers in the early days knew they had an impressionable young audience and they had to portray the world's greatest hero in a responsible way.  It's the same reason Batman no longer carries a gun.  The protagonists have to be better than the villains and can never take the easy way or it's all for naught.  We've all heard that trope in one form or another. 

But imagine for a second, the real world.  Goyer did this.  A real family in real Kansas raising an alien child isn't thinking about how Clark can save the world day to day without using lethal force.  They're preoccupied with keeping him and his secret safe.  This is the objective.  This is mission critical.  Later on, in a subsequent flashback, Pa Kent gives the other reason why Clark shouldn't use his power basically saying, yeah you'd be outed as an alien but also you have to consider the actions you take now determine the kind of man you intend to be.  Yeah.  That whole speech.  But make no mistake, while his parents extoll the virtues of being a better person, their main focus is to keep Clark's origin a secret.  No matter what.

This jibed with me.  It makes more sense. 

In the comics, the no killing thing can work.  It's the comics.  In the movie, where we're trying to envision something believable, a Clark that can kill if he absolutely had to and a Jonathan Kent that can consider letting someone die to keep a secret that would fundamentally change how we view the universe.  It's an easier pill to swallow.  Not by much mind you since we're all accustomed to a different status quo.  But in the end, it couldn't have been written any other way.


Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2013, 12:46:54 PM »
The real world sucks, and in large part because people don't live up to the ideals Superman is supposed to represent.  If even Superman stops living up to those ideals, the world sucks just a little bit more.
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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2013, 06:31:14 PM »
The real world sucks, and in large part because people don't live up to the ideals Superman is supposed to represent.  If even Superman stops living up to those ideals, the world sucks just a little bit more.

I'm going to have to disagree here.  What was Supes supposed to do?  Let Zod rampage across the globe, killing everyone?  The movie wasn't set in a four-color golden age universe, where morality is Good vs. Evil.

I do understand where you are coming from, however.  It was a bit jarring to see Superman kill an opponent, even one as dangerous as Zod.  I do appreciate that killing Zod was not something Superman took lightly, even after Zod promised to exterminate the human race.  It was obvious that Supes did not want to kill, but was forced to do so to prevent a greater tragedy when nothing less would suffice.

Lightslinger

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2013, 06:52:32 PM »
Snyder's even said recently that Superman killing Zod is going to be such a powerful moment in his life it will lead him to the values of Superman we're familiar with. He just wanted to show a reason, a how and a why he got there.

For me, Costner's acting in that scene with Clark is what sold me on the "Maybe." line. He's not advocating for a bus full of dead kids, he's just a farmer who has a freaking alien, god-like son and he doesn't really know what to say. In that moment it felt like I feel at least a dozen times a day as a Dad, you don't always know exactly what to do. And I'm just raising a couple of (relatively) normal humans.

Jonathan and Martha have lived their modest lives doing the best they can for their son, constantly struggling with things they don't understand and scared someone will take him away. They did provide Clark with his moral compass, but they are also mainly keep him grounded, it was Jor-El that taught him to fly. Both of those qualities are equally important for Superman, otherwise he'd just be another Kryptonian villain most likely.

Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2013, 07:20:41 PM »
Costner didn't sell me on that scene, but (even though what led to it was, as mentioned by others here, pretty well bunk) I liked him as Pa Kent in the one moment where he got out of the truck injured and with a simple look and gesture stopped Clark from saving him.
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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2013, 07:23:57 PM »
OK, really, I am getting tired of the whole should-he-or-shouldn't-he kill thing. Superman shouldn't kill. Period. You might say it's more realistic, but I call it lazy. They couldn't think of a better way to stop Zod, so have Superman become a killer. Lazy and stupid.

But fine, if you want to say it's realistic, then let's do this; next movie, let's have Lex be the smart, you-can't-catch-me guy, who always gets away because of some legal manipulation, or whatever. When Superman sees that Lex is going to get a way with his crimes again, Superman can wait outside Lex's home and when he sees Lex alone, turn him to ash with his heat vision. That would be realistic, too, because it is the only way to stop him. It's also nice and dark/ gritty.

If Superman doesn't kill Lex, then it's not realistic and they're copping out.

Todogut

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2013, 08:44:51 PM »
Here's a link to the first part of Kevin Smith Reviews "Man of Steel". Looks like there are 13 parts.

WARNING: The language in this video review includes pervasive profanity and dirty guy-talk humor.

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2013, 09:16:30 PM »
OK, really, I am getting tired of the whole should-he-or-shouldn't-he kill thing. Superman shouldn't kill. Period. You might say it's more realistic, but I call it lazy. They couldn't think of a better way to stop Zod, so have Superman become a killer. Lazy and stupid.


If Superman doesn't kill Lex, then it's not realistic and they're copping out.

Unfortunately, he has killed.  Superman killed Zod in the comics.  Superman killed Doomsday.  He realizes how wrong it is.  Maybe more so than anyone.  But he has done it. Out of necessity.  If  the villain can be reined in, brought to stand trial, and is physically capable of being contained and incarcerated, there's no way Clark would end someone's life.  But you can liken this situation to when a sniper has a clear shot at someone who's about to kill some innocent people.  When there is absolutely no other option and lives are at stake, what would you do?  I'm sorry the rule that Superman must not kill is so absolute that it ruined the movie for some of you.  If they chose to tell that story I'd be fine with it.  But they went a different route and that's okay with me too.

Tenzhi

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Re: Man of Steel (There Be Spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2013, 09:43:52 PM »
When there is absolutely no other option and lives are at stake, what would you do?

Get better writers.  Ones that don't write me into a corner that they can't write me out of withou turning me into something I'm not.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.