Still listed on Cryptic's site.

[dwturducken]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it's completely outside the realm of possibility. A lot of stuff these guys do is covered so deep in NDAs, you need a lawyer and an archeologist to find 'em, some days.

However (and, you just knew one was coming), the other big thing that struck me, in mulling this over, is Cryptic, itself.

A) Everything they currently have out is under the Perfect World banner, which is, I believe, a Chinese company.

B) Each product they have put out, since turning CoH over to NC$oft, has been in a different genre from the last.

I had a third, and I forgot it before I could get it written down. Stupid dog HAD to go out in the middle of writing the first one...

Anyway, I have mixed feelings on whether I would want to see a City of Heroes 2, since it would almost have to come from NC$oft, at this moment. There is, however, no ambiguity to my feelings if this was their Machiavellian way of get it done.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

[JaguarX]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

Possible. And NCsoft might even cut them a deal given the past relationship between the two and last I heard it was pretty amicable between the two. But with one super hero genre already barely having enough funding and support, could they support two? Or will CO be kicked to the curb and basically alienate that customer group?


More than likely though if Cryptic could and or wanted to get the IP they would have already.


More than likely NCsoft will hang on to that IP until the time is right to do something right it. With people scrambling for it and blowing up their phone, email, and the great show of support, it shows if they sell it they will be throwing away money in the long term even if in the short term they are taking a break. And even if they plan on not making any money from it, they probably not itching to risk getting rid of it only to come back and bite them as grown competition due to the IP success. IE. Small unknown game company buy IP. Make COX return. Make millions upon millions. decide to expand, make fantasy game, draws customers away from ncsoft game, make more million upon millions. All because the success that ncsoft sold to them. Now if they dont sell. same small game company, no IP, no game, no millions, it's not there. Now if they manage to succeed and become competition it wont be because NCSoft had a hand in their success.


Right now they seem to be pulling out, but when the feeling upticks and they come back to US market, I wouldnt be suprised if the first move they make is a game either COX2 or rerelease of COX knowing that many will come back anyways and act like the first shut down never even happened. But unfortunately the US wasnt abig market for them overall so it's probably one of those things that they'll get to it when they get to it.

[Angel Phoenix77]

yes I'm saying what you think I'm saying; this 'secret project' is actually: CoH 2

I don't know who initiated the contact first, but I'm certain that NCSoft and Cryptic have been talking about creating a CoH 2 for months before we were put on notice, thats right NCSoft is turning to a seasoned developer of MMO's and the creator of CoH inorder to get the sequel made. First they had to discuss all the nitty gritty business formalities which took a few months though the project had been put up on cryptic's page. next they needed to make it official they needed the IP lease back from paragon.

when you take away a lease from a company that subsequently gives them no right to even run the product linked to that lease. in effect Paragon would have been left with nothing to do, twiddling thier thumbs and waiting around. - this is the legal aspect NCSoft claimed required the shut-down of CoH. so rather than keep useless employees on the payroll they fired the whole studio.

but CoH /HAD/ to be shutdown for this to happen.

so now the lease went straight to cryptic, and obviously NCSoft wants to keep it secret to surprise us.

Hence why Cryptic has not released a name of a company they are developing for this time.

When paragon employees approached NCSoft to buy the IP NCSoft would not agree to thier terms. why? cause they felt the lease was safer in Cryptics hands for development purposes. now why not just tell them that? because SOME paragon employees would tell someone, and that someone would leak it to us. then it's not a surprise.

so, yeah, Positron is now working at cryptic and cryptic is working on CoH2

I of coarse have no hard evidence to support this except the timing but I'd say it's a dead ringer.

id like to know where you heard this. and all seriousness I would not want cryptic to dev city of heroes 2. even though I would love to play city of again, cryptic has shown to me it cannot handle a superhero mmo. (im looking at you champions online.)

[dwturducken]

He hasn't seen it, anywhere. He's putting forth a theory based on pieces of evidence. It's a good theory, and the pieces fit, except a couple aren't the right pieces. That was a hard analogy to fit together, but you get what I'm saying?

[Angel Phoenix77]

He hasn't seen it, anywhere. He's putting forth a theory based on pieces of evidence. It's a good theory, and the pieces fit, except a couple aren't the right pieces. That was a hard analogy to fit together, but you get what I'm saying?

sorry i dont want anyone to think i was flaming him. i was just looking for info

[Joshex]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

I suppose this may be a new topic I should have explained better, NCSoft still technically owns the IP to CoX, A 'Lease' in the terms of an IP states that the owning company has temporarily given another company permission to use the IP for development purposes however that company would not actually own the IP.

that was the relationship between NCSoft and Paragon, NCSoft owned the IP and leased it to Paragon Studios.

in business a Lease like this can only legally be given to 1 company at a time (as I encountered with nintendo) hence the shutdown and revoke of the lease from Paragon Studios in the case that they were to pick Cryptic to develop the Sequel.

in this case NCSoft still owns the IP but in theory could have leased it to Cryptic for them to develop the sequel, Cryptic would not legally own the IP or the sequel, as the publisher NCSoft's name would always come first on the loading screen.

in short I believe NCSoft has hired Cryptic to make CoH2 and has requested that no information be given about said development so that Cryptic wont steal the reputation they intend for themselves.

no doubt cryptic and NCSoft have made some form of deal as to payment for the services rendered, weather NCSoft is gonna fund the development outright, OR buy the title from them once it's made, OR cut them a stake in the profits.

I suspect NCSoft would be doing the later 'cutting cryptic a percent of the profits' because that would keep Cryptic on as the developer hence they would have a company to make new content and moderate the game. thus no need for paragon hence firing paragon studios.

Cryptic would be running the game under the direct authority of NCSoft.

[dwturducken]

that was the relationship between NCSoft and Paragon, NCSoft owned the IP and leased it to Paragon Studios.

While it doesn't invalidate, or really even weaken, your argument, I think this statement is technically backwards. I'd have to look back into the earlier threads, but I believe NC$oft leased the IP, but owned Paragon Studios outright. Cryptic owned the IP, but the lease was structured such that it doesn't revert back without NC$oft's explicit say-so, or something like that.

Again, doesn't invalidate your argument, but the legal distinction may make a difference.

[Captain Electric]

*Reads thread...clicks on link to Kate Upton pictures...distracted...skimming...*

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? 

[Joshex]

*Reads thread...clicks on link to Kate Upton pictures...distracted...skimming...*

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? 

one of my crazy conspiracy theories as normal - this time it's the cows, they are up to something.... *shifty eyes*

While it doesn't invalidate, or really even weaken, your argument, I think this statement is technically backwards. I'd have to look back into the earlier threads, but I believe NC$oft leased the IP, but owned Paragon Studios outright. Cryptic owned the IP, but the lease was structured such that it doesn't revert back without NC$oft's explicit say-so, or something like that.

Again, doesn't invalidate your argument, but the legal distinction may make a difference.

I generalized, it's the same thing as say the relationship between Nintendo and Intelligent Systems (the makers of fire emblem) Intelligent systems is it's own company but is legally owned by nintendo, if intelligent systems wanted to make a Mario RPG (which they have done in the past) then nintendo would have to lease them the rights to Mario in an RPG style, at which point they cannot legally lease Mario RPG rights to anyone else. it's a foul conduct law under the sale of products.

if you want to sell your 1 orange to person A you cannot also sell it to person B.

in retrospect; regardless if NCSoft did own Paragon Studios, Paragon then becomes a subsidary which is then recognised as a separate business name under law, and certain legalities that normally would be between unrelated companies are now valid in how the relations between this company and it's subsidary must be carried out.

fair trade is one of those.

[Joshex]

Bump for info.

I sent a message to NCSoft asking for an official reply heres what was said.:

ME:

To whom it may concern (please direct this to someone who has the authority to answer it, I can understand a delay), I have recently had a revelation regarding a few events between your company and a developer, and have come to the conclusion based on the timing that you are seeking said developer to develop a new title.

This is commendable to say the least.

In regard to this I must ask a very corporate question; Is NCSoft at any level actively in proceedings with Cryptic Studios to develop City of Heroes 2?

I came to this realization when noticing that cryptic took on a new project only the september before the announcement of the shutdown of city of heroes. I attribute this to talks regarding a sequel to have started at this point.

naturally the lease would have to be revoked from paragon inorder for cryptic to develop the title. hence the shutdown of paragon.

Positron taking up residence at cryptic also seemed to be pleasantly suspicious. even more suspicious was the fact that after his contract was finished he was kept on the payroll.

Are my findings true? if so I'm certain everyone from stock holders to customers will be thrilled. please let us know.

NCSoft:

I am not able to comment on, confirm, or deny about any internal NCSOFT business dealings that have not already been disclosed to the public by official announcement. This includes any future business plans, projects, or any information relating to current or former employees of NCSOFT or Partner Studios.

Regards,
Chris
NCsoft Account Support

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

it matches up perfectly, as I said, use the way back machine and you'll see the text of the secret project page changes from "we are developing a non-MMO title for Atari" to "we are developing several titles, for more than 1 publisher" notice the convenient drop of "non-MMO" and "company name"

who ever they are developing for other than Atari wants it a secret.

and by the tone of the response I was given by NCSoft; what ever information they have on the topic is "secret"

Secret=Cryptic ?match? NCSoft = Secret

I also sent a message to Cryptic and recieved no reply at all. Indicating that they had made agreements to refrain from talking about what I asked. so they couldn't even reply.

seems very fishy to me.

[Aggelakis]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

[Joshex]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

my point is they list no company name at all. hence it's a secret "who they are developing for".

[thunderforce]

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

No, for a number of reasons, the most obvious of which is that if you're working on project D and do not wish the world to know, you can hardly let yourself be questioned thus: "Working on A?" "No." "How about B?" "No." "Working on C?" "No." "What about D?" "Oooh, no comment." "How about E?" "No."

To be frank, as in http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7750.0.html the most rainbow-tinted interpretation of a sequence of events is rarely correct.

[Aggelakis]

Or since they're owned by PerfectWorld, it seemed silly to say they were developing for their owner and just left that part out.

When they were owned by Atari, I found it silly for them to say they were developing stuff for Atari. Well, of course they are. They're owned by Atari. The only time they should say WHO they're developing for is when they are not developing something for their parent company, IMO.

[JaguarX]

Joshex


At the same time though anyone especially the NCSOFT Account support guy have to be careful what he say. If he suggest that they are and or are not in fact working on something, and someone takes its and run with it as if his statement was official concrete fact of the inner workings and decision making of NCSoft, then he could easily lose his job, even if he was in fact correct. Standard procedure even for the gov.  Like right now, if some person or media representative asked me about something about the decisions of the hospital, I would be immediately released if I made a statement and not send them directly to the head PR department and possibly jailed if the media ran with it.


Try contacting the PR and or actual company representative for an answer about that. Although, more than likely, with the question coming from a random, in their eyes, no offense, person, they probably will clam up and either not answer as what they say could come back to bite them as sometimes people havce tendacy to twist words, or they might answer with the same as the account guy. Or you might get lucky and get them on a hangover day and they spill the beans.

[houtex]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

Says Aggelakis, who is probably conspiring about something...

[Joshex]

Says Aggelakis, who is probably conspiring about something...

as humans we conspire about things every time we make a decision. remember that

I am conspiring about a game I'm making, I'm conspring about what to have for dinner, I'm conspiring about when the restroom will be open and smell free for my shower.

typically the word Conspiracy just means it's an in depth plot, it doesn't even have to be considered by more than 1 person.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Bump for info.

I sent a message to NCSoft asking for an official reply heres what was said.:

ME:

NCSoft:

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

it matches up perfectly, as I said, use the way back machine and you'll see the text of the secret project page changes from "we are developing a non-MMO title for Atari" to "we are developing several titles, for more than 1 publisher" notice the convenient drop of "non-MMO" and "company name"

who ever they are developing for other than Atari wants it a secret.

and by the tone of the response I was given by NCSoft; what ever information they have on the topic is "secret"

Secret=Cryptic ?match? NCSoft = Secret

I also sent a message to Cryptic and recieved no reply at all. Indicating that they had made agreements to refrain from talking about what I asked. so they couldn't even reply.

seems very fishy to me.

this is fascinating to say the least, but im going to wait for pwe to respond back to you.

[Eoraptor]

looks through all the conversation. pauses, considers for a few moments.

Okay, As other's have said, it is within the realm of possibility that NCSoft is working on CoX2. unlikely, but possible.

What is more likely is this. Remember that negotiations between Paragon and NCSoft for paragon's independence broke down at the last minute. Why? Not because NCSoft wanted to out them for some contractual reason I think... More Likely I think it's down to the same sorts of emotions that go on in all corporations. Some middle-level executive was siezed by a sudden fit of GREED. in his or her brain, it was "these people want to take away MY toys, MY crayons, MY legos, andplay with them themselves. Well that isn't happening on my watch!"

And so even though it was in no one's best interest at the time, negotiations for paragon to go independant or be bought by another company died right there.

Now, today, a year after the fact, NCSoft still owns those very same rights to City of Heroes (plus the two phantom IPs that were also involved in that debacle). Clearly they have no interest in running CoX, even in a maintenance mode, because not only are the game servers gone, but the corporate infrastructure for them such as the accounts, the official forums, and any advertising partner tie in, are also gone.

At this point, the City of Heroes Franchise is dangerously close to falling into "abandonware" territory. That means that the legal owners forfiet almost any right to the IP, much the same way a copyright holder forfiets their rights to a trademark or patent they don't defend. I play several abandonware games myself.

So NCSoft is just playing the same greed game they did in negotiations. by maintaining the game's marks on their site they mark their territory from a legal standpoint, without the expense of dedicating URLs or Server rackspace to them.

but that's just one little raptor's opinion.