Still listed on Cryptic's site.

[Stormsurge]

So, this is Cryptic's home site:

http://crypticstudios.com/#

Both listed on the main page and the Products tab are CoH/CoV. Although there is alsos a disclaimer saying they belong to NCSoft, it's interesting they still list it as part of their resume.

[FatherXmas]

Why wouldn't they?  They developed them initially.  Do you leave a gap in the timeline on your CV just because the business you worked at during that period closed?

[Rust]

Indeed.

[beveri8469]

would love to know what the secret project is.

[dwturducken]

I leave gaps in my resume (and omit years, now) that give away my age.

Given how much Jack mentions City of Heroes when he's talking about whatever new game he's promoting, it's still a source of some pride to him, and he knows that it will resonate to people in the industry as well as players. So, yes, they're going to showcase it. Now, Champions, on the other hand...

[SkyStreak]

I think mentioning CoH on their site is the rough equivalent of a guy who dated Kate Upton mentioning it as often as he can.

[JaguarX]

I think mentioning CoH on their site is the rough equivalent of a guy who dated Kate Upton mentioning it as often as he can.

Who is Kate Upton? Is it a person that should or should not be named dropped if ya dated them ?

[JaguarX]

would love to know what the secret project is.

Champions Online...In Space. 

Defender and other champions fly off to aid Captain Kirk after receiving encryptic message from Spock and they team up to take on the Klingons and space elves.

[Blondeshell]

Who is Kate Upton? Is it a person that should or should not be named dropped if ya dated them ?

Kate Upton = Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover girl

Some pics for reference

[dwturducken]

Who is Kate Upton? Is it a person that should or should not be named dropped if ya dated them ?

Just... Wow. You don't still have your dude card, do you?

[Joshex]

by the way this article intrigued me though alot of things do. anyways we'll see what comes of my intrigue though I don't suspect much.

[JaguarX]

Just... Wow. You don't still have your dude card, do you?

that case probably just stems from a mixture of no interest in sports thus never picking up sports illustrated or picking up magazines just to look at the women. Like I followed the link for Upton that has been provided and only thought was " ok that is kate upton" and left. Not to mention no interest nor urge to seek out what famous people are doing anymore that I seek out what the guy on  455Alameda street is wearing today assuming there is anyone living there in the first place.

[Ironwolf]

Sheldon is that you?

[Joshex]

would love to know what the secret project is.

when did this secret project get posted?

[Blondeshell]

when did this secret project get posted?

Cryptic has been "initiating development on several new projects" in one form or another since at least March 11, 2007. This likely originally included Star Trek and Neverwinter, as well as the repurposing of Marvel Universe. No telling what they've specifically got in the works now, but it's been a standard marketing line for at least six years.

[Joshex]

Cryptic has been "initiating development on several new projects" in one form or another since at least March 11, 2007. This likely originally included Star Trek and Neverwinter, as well as the repurposing of Marvel Universe. No telling what they've specifically got in the works now, but it's been a standard marketing line for at least six years.

I was hoping someone would do the work for me and use the way back machine to see the date this current "secret project" was listed on thier website. I have a hunch about it and if the timing is right I am Super Surprised. lets just say that.

Editing: Ok I checked the timing and it is dead on PERFECT!!! september 14th 2011

The way back machine shows that prior to this particular 'secret project' there was another secret project, now I actually got lucky because the way back machine only has records dating back to 2011 for this particular page and I needed to see a previous secret project to determine the start of the current secret project.

The old project was for Atari.

the new project is for a nameless company, or at least one that does not want to be named yet. 

So what does the timing tell me? the project started somewhere /around/ the beginning of 2012. I.E. about 1 year before CoH was put on closing notice.

infact, just enough time for certain discussions between companies to relay back and forth on what was desired aka finalizing the project details and giving the go-ahead on the plan to commence.

Realizations;

NCSoft knows City of heroes is not marketable to asia. so why would they take the time and resources to develop a sequel in a korean company? simple they wont.

if NCSoft wanted to make a sequel to CoH why would they fire paragon? because paragon was barely able to make additions to the original game, obviously creating a sequel would have been too much for them to handle, they were fired because it could be legally objected by paragon if NCSoft were to seek outside help to develop the sequel rather than resorting to the staff at paragon who were supposed to be in charge of that and had the IP leased to them.

in the business world an IP can only be legally leased to 1 company at a time. I found that out with nintendo, they had a game being developed by a lame duck developer who was doing nothing and squating on the IP, they had thier hands tied and couldn't lease the IP to anyone else till the current lease expired.

Also for many who didn't know this; after some really indepth talks with Aeria games I learned that NCSoft is merely a publisher they have no actual ability to edit/make the games they hire other companies to do that.

yes I'm saying what you think I'm saying; this 'secret project' is actually: CoH 2

I don't know who initiated the contact first, but I'm certain that NCSoft and Cryptic have been talking about creating a CoH 2 for months before we were put on notice, thats right NCSoft is turning to a seasoned developer of MMO's and the creator of CoH inorder to get the sequel made. First they had to discuss all the nitty gritty business formalities which took a few months though the project had been put up on cryptic's page. next they needed to make it official they needed the IP lease back from paragon.

when you take away a lease from a company that subsequently gives them no right to even run the product linked to that lease. in effect Paragon would have been left with nothing to do, twiddling thier thumbs and waiting around. - this is the legal aspect NCSoft claimed required the shut-down of CoH. so rather than keep useless employees on the payroll they fired the whole studio.

but CoH /HAD/ to be shutdown for this to happen.

so now the lease went straight to cryptic, and obviously NCSoft wants to keep it secret to surprise us.

Hence why Cryptic has not released a name of a company they are developing for this time.

When paragon employees approached NCSoft to buy the IP NCSoft would not agree to thier terms. why? cause they felt the lease was safer in Cryptics hands for development purposes. now why not just tell them that? because SOME paragon employees would tell someone, and that someone would leak it to us. then it's not a surprise.

so, yeah, Positron is now working at cryptic and cryptic is working on CoH2

I of coarse have no hard evidence to support this except the timing but I'd say it's a dead ringer.

[dwturducken]

There are a few holes in your tapestry, there, but not so's you'd notice from across the room.

The biggest one I see is, I recall Posi just doing contract work on the new Klingon tutorial on STO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was actually hired on full time.

[Aggelakis]

There are a few holes in your tapestry, there, but not so's you'd notice from across the room.

The biggest one I see is, I recall Posi just doing contract work on the new Klingon tutorial on STO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was actually hired on full time.

Correct. He did the Klingon stuff on contract - no word on anything further for him. It seems like he's still on contract though, because he wrote an official STO blog post a month or so ago.

[JaguarX]

The biggest one I see is, I recall Posi just doing contract work on the new Klingon tutorial on STO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was actually hired on full time.

Last I heard it was contract. But what kind of contract, not sure. Contractor out of another company, or personal self contractor. But the thing about contractor is usually the yare hired to do a job and when it ends or the contract expires, it's back searching for a job or if part of a contracting company, off to another assignment when one arises. Or in some cases a renewal of contract happens but is not guranteed no matter who many times it's been renwed or how many years of work.

[Joshex]

Correct. He did the Klingon stuff on contract - no word on anything further for him. It seems like he's still on contract though, because he wrote an official STO blog post a month or so ago.

sounds promising, completed his task and is still on contract. sounds 'secretive' if I may say so. sorry I guess I'm just hoping what I'm imagining is true.

[dwturducken]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it's completely outside the realm of possibility. A lot of stuff these guys do is covered so deep in NDAs, you need a lawyer and an archeologist to find 'em, some days.

However (and, you just knew one was coming), the other big thing that struck me, in mulling this over, is Cryptic, itself.

A) Everything they currently have out is under the Perfect World banner, which is, I believe, a Chinese company.

B) Each product they have put out, since turning CoH over to NC$oft, has been in a different genre from the last.

I had a third, and I forgot it before I could get it written down. Stupid dog HAD to go out in the middle of writing the first one...

Anyway, I have mixed feelings on whether I would want to see a City of Heroes 2, since it would almost have to come from NC$oft, at this moment. There is, however, no ambiguity to my feelings if this was their Machiavellian way of get it done.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

[JaguarX]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

Possible. And NCsoft might even cut them a deal given the past relationship between the two and last I heard it was pretty amicable between the two. But with one super hero genre already barely having enough funding and support, could they support two? Or will CO be kicked to the curb and basically alienate that customer group?


More than likely though if Cryptic could and or wanted to get the IP they would have already.


More than likely NCsoft will hang on to that IP until the time is right to do something right it. With people scrambling for it and blowing up their phone, email, and the great show of support, it shows if they sell it they will be throwing away money in the long term even if in the short term they are taking a break. And even if they plan on not making any money from it, they probably not itching to risk getting rid of it only to come back and bite them as grown competition due to the IP success. IE. Small unknown game company buy IP. Make COX return. Make millions upon millions. decide to expand, make fantasy game, draws customers away from ncsoft game, make more million upon millions. All because the success that ncsoft sold to them. Now if they dont sell. same small game company, no IP, no game, no millions, it's not there. Now if they manage to succeed and become competition it wont be because NCSoft had a hand in their success.


Right now they seem to be pulling out, but when the feeling upticks and they come back to US market, I wouldnt be suprised if the first move they make is a game either COX2 or rerelease of COX knowing that many will come back anyways and act like the first shut down never even happened. But unfortunately the US wasnt abig market for them overall so it's probably one of those things that they'll get to it when they get to it.

[Angel Phoenix77]

yes I'm saying what you think I'm saying; this 'secret project' is actually: CoH 2

I don't know who initiated the contact first, but I'm certain that NCSoft and Cryptic have been talking about creating a CoH 2 for months before we were put on notice, thats right NCSoft is turning to a seasoned developer of MMO's and the creator of CoH inorder to get the sequel made. First they had to discuss all the nitty gritty business formalities which took a few months though the project had been put up on cryptic's page. next they needed to make it official they needed the IP lease back from paragon.

when you take away a lease from a company that subsequently gives them no right to even run the product linked to that lease. in effect Paragon would have been left with nothing to do, twiddling thier thumbs and waiting around. - this is the legal aspect NCSoft claimed required the shut-down of CoH. so rather than keep useless employees on the payroll they fired the whole studio.

but CoH /HAD/ to be shutdown for this to happen.

so now the lease went straight to cryptic, and obviously NCSoft wants to keep it secret to surprise us.

Hence why Cryptic has not released a name of a company they are developing for this time.

When paragon employees approached NCSoft to buy the IP NCSoft would not agree to thier terms. why? cause they felt the lease was safer in Cryptics hands for development purposes. now why not just tell them that? because SOME paragon employees would tell someone, and that someone would leak it to us. then it's not a surprise.

so, yeah, Positron is now working at cryptic and cryptic is working on CoH2

I of coarse have no hard evidence to support this except the timing but I'd say it's a dead ringer.

id like to know where you heard this. and all seriousness I would not want cryptic to dev city of heroes 2. even though I would love to play city of again, cryptic has shown to me it cannot handle a superhero mmo. (im looking at you champions online.)

[dwturducken]

He hasn't seen it, anywhere. He's putting forth a theory based on pieces of evidence. It's a good theory, and the pieces fit, except a couple aren't the right pieces. That was a hard analogy to fit together, but you get what I'm saying?

[Angel Phoenix77]

He hasn't seen it, anywhere. He's putting forth a theory based on pieces of evidence. It's a good theory, and the pieces fit, except a couple aren't the right pieces. That was a hard analogy to fit together, but you get what I'm saying?

sorry i dont want anyone to think i was flaming him. i was just looking for info

[Joshex]

Well Joshex.  That is an interesting idea.  But the problem I see with it is, why would NCSoft just give away that money to Cryptic, while also destroying their imagine in the western markets?  If NCSoft wanted to keep making money off of CoH they would have it open still, or would of sold it.  And NCSoft would have to be a bunch of super swell people to

Sell the IP in secret to Cryptic.
Shut down the game without warning
Refuse to sell the game which makes them look even worse then the previous step
Lose a lot of business in their western market.
Allow Cryptic to re-open the sequel to the game and be the knights in shining armor
Makes NCSoft loose more western customers to go the Heroes of City of Heroes
Then not make any more money off of the sequel because the IP no longer belongs to you.

That just doesn't seem likely to me.  Now I could see Cryptic making CoH 2 if they could somehow manage to get the IP out of NCSofts hands for a reasonable price.

I suppose this may be a new topic I should have explained better, NCSoft still technically owns the IP to CoX, A 'Lease' in the terms of an IP states that the owning company has temporarily given another company permission to use the IP for development purposes however that company would not actually own the IP.

that was the relationship between NCSoft and Paragon, NCSoft owned the IP and leased it to Paragon Studios.

in business a Lease like this can only legally be given to 1 company at a time (as I encountered with nintendo) hence the shutdown and revoke of the lease from Paragon Studios in the case that they were to pick Cryptic to develop the Sequel.

in this case NCSoft still owns the IP but in theory could have leased it to Cryptic for them to develop the sequel, Cryptic would not legally own the IP or the sequel, as the publisher NCSoft's name would always come first on the loading screen.

in short I believe NCSoft has hired Cryptic to make CoH2 and has requested that no information be given about said development so that Cryptic wont steal the reputation they intend for themselves.

no doubt cryptic and NCSoft have made some form of deal as to payment for the services rendered, weather NCSoft is gonna fund the development outright, OR buy the title from them once it's made, OR cut them a stake in the profits.

I suspect NCSoft would be doing the later 'cutting cryptic a percent of the profits' because that would keep Cryptic on as the developer hence they would have a company to make new content and moderate the game. thus no need for paragon hence firing paragon studios.

Cryptic would be running the game under the direct authority of NCSoft.

[dwturducken]

that was the relationship between NCSoft and Paragon, NCSoft owned the IP and leased it to Paragon Studios.

While it doesn't invalidate, or really even weaken, your argument, I think this statement is technically backwards. I'd have to look back into the earlier threads, but I believe NC$oft leased the IP, but owned Paragon Studios outright. Cryptic owned the IP, but the lease was structured such that it doesn't revert back without NC$oft's explicit say-so, or something like that.

Again, doesn't invalidate your argument, but the legal distinction may make a difference.

[Captain Electric]

*Reads thread...clicks on link to Kate Upton pictures...distracted...skimming...*

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? 

[Joshex]

*Reads thread...clicks on link to Kate Upton pictures...distracted...skimming...*

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? 

one of my crazy conspiracy theories as normal - this time it's the cows, they are up to something.... *shifty eyes*

While it doesn't invalidate, or really even weaken, your argument, I think this statement is technically backwards. I'd have to look back into the earlier threads, but I believe NC$oft leased the IP, but owned Paragon Studios outright. Cryptic owned the IP, but the lease was structured such that it doesn't revert back without NC$oft's explicit say-so, or something like that.

Again, doesn't invalidate your argument, but the legal distinction may make a difference.

I generalized, it's the same thing as say the relationship between Nintendo and Intelligent Systems (the makers of fire emblem) Intelligent systems is it's own company but is legally owned by nintendo, if intelligent systems wanted to make a Mario RPG (which they have done in the past) then nintendo would have to lease them the rights to Mario in an RPG style, at which point they cannot legally lease Mario RPG rights to anyone else. it's a foul conduct law under the sale of products.

if you want to sell your 1 orange to person A you cannot also sell it to person B.

in retrospect; regardless if NCSoft did own Paragon Studios, Paragon then becomes a subsidary which is then recognised as a separate business name under law, and certain legalities that normally would be between unrelated companies are now valid in how the relations between this company and it's subsidary must be carried out.

fair trade is one of those.

[Joshex]

Bump for info.

I sent a message to NCSoft asking for an official reply heres what was said.:

ME:

To whom it may concern (please direct this to someone who has the authority to answer it, I can understand a delay), I have recently had a revelation regarding a few events between your company and a developer, and have come to the conclusion based on the timing that you are seeking said developer to develop a new title.

This is commendable to say the least.

In regard to this I must ask a very corporate question; Is NCSoft at any level actively in proceedings with Cryptic Studios to develop City of Heroes 2?

I came to this realization when noticing that cryptic took on a new project only the september before the announcement of the shutdown of city of heroes. I attribute this to talks regarding a sequel to have started at this point.

naturally the lease would have to be revoked from paragon inorder for cryptic to develop the title. hence the shutdown of paragon.

Positron taking up residence at cryptic also seemed to be pleasantly suspicious. even more suspicious was the fact that after his contract was finished he was kept on the payroll.

Are my findings true? if so I'm certain everyone from stock holders to customers will be thrilled. please let us know.

NCSoft:

I am not able to comment on, confirm, or deny about any internal NCSOFT business dealings that have not already been disclosed to the public by official announcement. This includes any future business plans, projects, or any information relating to current or former employees of NCSOFT or Partner Studios.

Regards,
Chris
NCsoft Account Support

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

it matches up perfectly, as I said, use the way back machine and you'll see the text of the secret project page changes from "we are developing a non-MMO title for Atari" to "we are developing several titles, for more than 1 publisher" notice the convenient drop of "non-MMO" and "company name"

who ever they are developing for other than Atari wants it a secret.

and by the tone of the response I was given by NCSoft; what ever information they have on the topic is "secret"

Secret=Cryptic ?match? NCSoft = Secret

I also sent a message to Cryptic and recieved no reply at all. Indicating that they had made agreements to refrain from talking about what I asked. so they couldn't even reply.

seems very fishy to me.

[Aggelakis]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

[Joshex]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

my point is they list no company name at all. hence it's a secret "who they are developing for".

[thunderforce]

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

No, for a number of reasons, the most obvious of which is that if you're working on project D and do not wish the world to know, you can hardly let yourself be questioned thus: "Working on A?" "No." "How about B?" "No." "Working on C?" "No." "What about D?" "Oooh, no comment." "How about E?" "No."

To be frank, as in http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7750.0.html the most rainbow-tinted interpretation of a sequence of events is rarely correct.

[Aggelakis]

Or since they're owned by PerfectWorld, it seemed silly to say they were developing for their owner and just left that part out.

When they were owned by Atari, I found it silly for them to say they were developing stuff for Atari. Well, of course they are. They're owned by Atari. The only time they should say WHO they're developing for is when they are not developing something for their parent company, IMO.

[JaguarX]

Joshex


At the same time though anyone especially the NCSOFT Account support guy have to be careful what he say. If he suggest that they are and or are not in fact working on something, and someone takes its and run with it as if his statement was official concrete fact of the inner workings and decision making of NCSoft, then he could easily lose his job, even if he was in fact correct. Standard procedure even for the gov.  Like right now, if some person or media representative asked me about something about the decisions of the hospital, I would be immediately released if I made a statement and not send them directly to the head PR department and possibly jailed if the media ran with it.


Try contacting the PR and or actual company representative for an answer about that. Although, more than likely, with the question coming from a random, in their eyes, no offense, person, they probably will clam up and either not answer as what they say could come back to bite them as sometimes people havce tendacy to twist words, or they might answer with the same as the account guy. Or you might get lucky and get them on a hangover day and they spill the beans.

[houtex]

They dropped Atari because Atari dropped them.

I wish I lived in a reality like yours where everything was a conspiracy for something else. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, where there are very few actual conspiracies...

Says Aggelakis, who is probably conspiring about something...

[Joshex]

Says Aggelakis, who is probably conspiring about something...

as humans we conspire about things every time we make a decision. remember that

I am conspiring about a game I'm making, I'm conspring about what to have for dinner, I'm conspiring about when the restroom will be open and smell free for my shower.

typically the word Conspiracy just means it's an in depth plot, it doesn't even have to be considered by more than 1 person.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Bump for info.

I sent a message to NCSoft asking for an official reply heres what was said.:

ME:

NCSoft:

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

it matches up perfectly, as I said, use the way back machine and you'll see the text of the secret project page changes from "we are developing a non-MMO title for Atari" to "we are developing several titles, for more than 1 publisher" notice the convenient drop of "non-MMO" and "company name"

who ever they are developing for other than Atari wants it a secret.

and by the tone of the response I was given by NCSoft; what ever information they have on the topic is "secret"

Secret=Cryptic ?match? NCSoft = Secret

I also sent a message to Cryptic and recieved no reply at all. Indicating that they had made agreements to refrain from talking about what I asked. so they couldn't even reply.

seems very fishy to me.

this is fascinating to say the least, but im going to wait for pwe to respond back to you.

[Eoraptor]

looks through all the conversation. pauses, considers for a few moments.

Okay, As other's have said, it is within the realm of possibility that NCSoft is working on CoX2. unlikely, but possible.

What is more likely is this. Remember that negotiations between Paragon and NCSoft for paragon's independence broke down at the last minute. Why? Not because NCSoft wanted to out them for some contractual reason I think... More Likely I think it's down to the same sorts of emotions that go on in all corporations. Some middle-level executive was siezed by a sudden fit of GREED. in his or her brain, it was "these people want to take away MY toys, MY crayons, MY legos, andplay with them themselves. Well that isn't happening on my watch!"

And so even though it was in no one's best interest at the time, negotiations for paragon to go independant or be bought by another company died right there.

Now, today, a year after the fact, NCSoft still owns those very same rights to City of Heroes (plus the two phantom IPs that were also involved in that debacle). Clearly they have no interest in running CoX, even in a maintenance mode, because not only are the game servers gone, but the corporate infrastructure for them such as the accounts, the official forums, and any advertising partner tie in, are also gone.

At this point, the City of Heroes Franchise is dangerously close to falling into "abandonware" territory. That means that the legal owners forfiet almost any right to the IP, much the same way a copyright holder forfiets their rights to a trademark or patent they don't defend. I play several abandonware games myself.

So NCSoft is just playing the same greed game they did in negotiations. by maintaining the game's marks on their site they mark their territory from a legal standpoint, without the expense of dedicating URLs or Server rackspace to them.

but that's just one little raptor's opinion.

[JaguarX]

looks through all the conversation. pauses, considers for a few moments.

Okay, As other's have said, it is within the realm of possibility that NCSoft is working on CoX2. unlikely, but possible.

What is more likely is this. Remember that negotiations between Paragon and NCSoft for paragon's independence broke down at the last minute. Why? Not because NCSoft wanted to out them for some contractual reason I think... More Likely I think it's down to the same sorts of emotions that go on in all corporations. Some middle-level executive was siezed by a sudden fit of GREED. in his or her brain, it was "these people want to take away MY toys, MY crayons, MY legos, andplay with them themselves. Well that isn't happening on my watch!"

And so even though it was in no one's best interest at the time, negotiations for paragon to go independant or be bought by another company died right there.

Now, today, a year after the fact, NCSoft still owns those very same rights to City of Heroes (plus the two phantom IPs that were also involved in that debacle). Clearly they have no interest in running CoX, even in a maintenance mode, because not only are the game servers gone, but the corporate infrastructure for them such as the accounts, the official forums, and any advertising partner tie in, are also gone.

At this point, the City of Heroes Franchise is dangerously close to falling into "abandonware" territory. That means that the legal owners forfiet almost any right to the IP, much the same way a copyright holder forfiets their rights to a trademark or patent they don't defend. I play several abandonware games myself.

So NCSoft is just playing the same greed game they did in negotiations. by maintaining the game's marks on their site they mark their territory from a legal standpoint, without the expense of dedicating URLs or Server rackspace to them.

but that's just one little raptor's opinion.

Yup but remember the copyright havent expired yet.

Now it might be worth the gamble and go for it. Might get luck yand NCSOft might not try to enforce it's copyright infringement stuff as many game companies have done. They just look shrug, and keep it moving. But it is still unlawful to distribute copies of old copyrighted software and games, with or without compensation.
But also rarely do these things make it to court. That can be good and bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware#Implications

[Taceus Jiwede]

now correct me if I'm wrong, but logic would dictate that if they /WERE NOT/ working on the project they would have no reason to hide it. so a response saying "we don't want to tell" means? = Yes.

To assume that when a person doesn't say no that it means Yes is a dangerous belief system to have.  The way they answered it is the safest and smartest legal way to answer that.  And yes NCSoft owned the IP and Paragon Studios worked on it.  That is because Paragon studios worked for NCSoft.  It is pretty common knowledge that NCSoft doesn't develop their games.  They are publishers, they publish the games and hire developers to develop the game.  But I don't see them letting a developing team owned by a competeing publishing company do CoH 2.  It still would make Perfect World look fantastic and not make NCSoft look better to us in anyway and I don't think they would want to do that.  They would of just made CoH 2 right off the bat and gotten all the money and glory instead of a chunk of the money and none of the glory.

[Joshex]

To assume that when a person doesn't say no that it means Yes is a dangerous belief system to have.  The way they answered it is the safest and smartest legal way to answer that.  And yes NCSoft owned the IP and Paragon Studios worked on it.  That is because Paragon studios worked for NCSoft.  It is pretty common knowledge that NCSoft doesn't develop their games.  They are publishers, they publish the games and hire developers to develop the game.  But I don't see them letting a developing team owned by a competeing publishing company do CoH 2.  It still would make Perfect World look fantastic and not make NCSoft look better to us in anyway and I don't think they would want to do that.  They would of just made CoH 2 right off the bat and gotten all the money and glory instead of a chunk of the money and none of the glory.

it wont have anything to do with PWE if they do it, Cryptic is still technically it's own company and can be hired by anyone to make games.

looks through all the conversation. pauses, considers for a few moments.

Okay, As other's have said, it is within the realm of possibility that NCSoft is working on CoX2. unlikely, but possible.

What is more likely is this. Remember that negotiations between Paragon and NCSoft for paragon's independence broke down at the last minute. Why? Not because NCSoft wanted to out them for some contractual reason I think... More Likely I think it's down to the same sorts of emotions that go on in all corporations. Some middle-level executive was siezed by a sudden fit of GREED. in his or her brain, it was "these people want to take away MY toys, MY crayons, MY legos, andplay with them themselves. Well that isn't happening on my watch!"

And so even though it was in no one's best interest at the time, negotiations for paragon to go independant or be bought by another company died right there.

Now, today, a year after the fact, NCSoft still owns those very same rights to City of Heroes (plus the two phantom IPs that were also involved in that debacle). Clearly they have no interest in running CoX, even in a maintenance mode, because not only are the game servers gone, but the corporate infrastructure for them such as the accounts, the official forums, and any advertising partner tie in, are also gone.

At this point, the City of Heroes Franchise is dangerously close to falling into "abandonware" territory. That means that the legal owners forfiet almost any right to the IP, much the same way a copyright holder forfiets their rights to a trademark or patent they don't defend. I play several abandonware games myself.

So NCSoft is just playing the same greed game they did in negotiations. by maintaining the game's marks on their site they mark their territory from a legal standpoint, without the expense of dedicating URLs or Server rackspace to them.

but that's just one little raptor's opinion.

typically last I checked Copy Rights expire after 7 years, but only in the case that the owning company did not develop for or utilize those rights during that portion of time, so technically if NCSoft really wanted to be stiff 84$74RD$ in 6.99 years from the shutdown they could release a one episode "CoH: the Remeberance" animation, description: remembering some of our fallen but not forgotten titles.

so.. waiting for the copyrights to expire is like waiting for 'the house' to run out of cards to play, even in the event they loose cards after each match they can always get a new deck.

for once I'm a skeptic.

I suppose any waiting on them to move is a bad move. we need to try and urge them to pass thier turn if they can't muster the guts to play.

[Aggelakis]

typically last I checked Copy Rights expire after 7 years,

No. http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html

As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.

[Blondeshell]

typically last I checked Copy Rights expire after 7 years

I believe you're confusing copyrights with trademarks, which have a 10-year duration and must be maintained every 5-6 years after registration/renewal.

http://trademarkvscopyrightvspatent.com/trademark-duration-usa.html

[Eoraptor]

I believe you're confusing copyrights with trademarks, which have a 10-year duration and must be maintained every 5-6 years after registration/renewal.

http://trademarkvscopyrightvspatent.com/trademark-duration-usa.html

And also remember that this is not predecated SOLEY on US Copyright patent and trademark law (collectively the USPTO) but on many different statutes and international agreements. Particularly if someone sets up a private server in germany or britain, and clients log in from the US, on a game whose IP is held by a south korean company.

[thunderforce]

At this point, the City of Heroes Franchise is dangerously close to falling into "abandonware" territory. That means that the legal owners forfiet almost any right to the IP, much the same way a copyright holder forfiets their rights to a trademark or patent they don't defend. I play several abandonware games myself.

No, they don't. Essentially everything in those sentences, aside that trademark holders may under some circumstances lose them through non-defence (but not "all the time", as is popularly believed), is completely and utterly wrong.

[srmalloy]

What is more likely is this. Remember that negotiations between Paragon and NCSoft for paragon's independence broke down at the last minute. Why? Not because NCSoft wanted to out them for some contractual reason I think... More Likely I think it's down to the same sorts of emotions that go on in all corporations. Some middle-level executive was siezed by a sudden fit of GREED. in his or her brain, it was "these people want to take away MY toys, MY crayons, MY legos, andplay with them themselves. Well that isn't happening on my watch!"

Or "They're not displaying the proper deference that subordinates should have; they need to be punished for even thinking about becoming independent!"...

[r00tb0ySlim]

seems very fishy to me.

Ah yes...something smells in Smellsville!!!  CoH2 would make for a great X-mas present....cue the marketing this Fall let's say???  I like a good ole conspiracy theory.

[ag88t88]

the new project is for a nameless company, or at least one that does not want to be named yet. 
So what does the timing tell me? the project started somewhere /around/ the beginning of 2012. I.E. about 1 year before CoH was put on closing notice.

Realizations;

NCSoft knows City of heroes is not marketable to asia. so why would they take the time and resources to develop a sequel in a korean company? simple they wont.

if NCSoft wanted to make a sequel to CoH why would they fire paragon? because paragon was barely able to make additions to the original game, obviously creating a sequel would have been too much for them to handle, they were fired because it could be legally objected by paragon if NCSoft were to seek outside help to develop the sequel rather than resorting to the staff at paragon who were supposed to be in charge of that and had the IP leased to them.

in the business world an IP can only be legally leased to 1 company at a time. I found that out with nintendo, they had a game being developed by a lame duck developer who was doing nothing and squating on the IP, they had thier hands tied and couldn't lease the IP to anyone else till the current lease expired.

Also for many who didn't know this; after some really indepth talks with Aeria games I learned that NCSoft is merely a publisher they have no actual ability to edit/make the games they hire other companies to do that.

yes I'm saying what you think I'm saying; this 'secret project' is actually: CoH 2

I don't know who initiated the contact first, but I'm certain that NCSoft and Cryptic have been talking about creating a CoH 2 for months before we were put on notice, thats right NCSoft is turning to a seasoned developer of MMO's and the creator of CoH inorder to get the sequel made. First they had to discuss all the nitty gritty business formalities which took a few months though the project had been put up on cryptic's page. next they needed to make it official they needed the IP lease back from paragon.

when you take away a lease from a company that subsequently gives them no right to even run the product linked to that lease. in effect Paragon would have been left with nothing to do,

So this is an interesting theory (Sorry for truncating it in my quote)  and you clearly put some thought into it, but this is where it falls apart for me.  NCSoft is typically a publisher but they can and have owned development studios, including Paragon Studios.  Paragon wasn't an independent company they leased the IP to, Paragon Studios was a subsidiary wholly owned by NCSoft and had no "Lease" for the IP since it was NCSofts IP.

Further, NCSoft bought the IP from Cryptic outright so they could "re-invest" in the IP and spent the years after the buy out (November 2007 I believe) building up Paragon Studios into a sizeable development studio, which is why we got things like Going Rogue, power customization, Freedom etc, that was all done by Paragon doing their own development, and up until Paragon got closed down they were working on a whole other project, never named though they had said it wasn't CoH related at some point.

So if NCSoft wanted to make a CoH2, they would have been in a better position to simply give PS a bigger budget and allow them to expand some more and build A CoH2, since they already had a team there that had a ton of experience with the IP, a team that had experience developing the ongoing CoH and were developing an entirely new project and since they owned PS they would have kept entire control of the IP, instead of having to have another company involved and having to share the profits and money of the game with that studio.

Not to mention that if they wanted CoH2 to be made, they'd not want to piss off the entire player base by cancelling CoH, which was still making money and developing new content very actively, long before any kind of CoH 2 was even announced, much less ready to play.

Really Paragon Studios would have been the ideal place to develop CoH2,  a development team they fully own, complete control over the property, a development team with experience making the CoH game, a working studio already with many resources in place, and further continuing the development of CoH, keeping that audience interested and paying bills at NCSoft until they could get the audience to switch to the sequel.

I just don't think NCSoft would have gone back to Cryptic to develop a CoH2 when they spent so much money and energy buying the IP to re-invest in it in the first place.   

[Perfidus]

Yeah, it's fun to think about, but just isn't realistic at all. I say with 99% sureness that its not what's happening.

Also, Posi is now a full time employee at Cryptic, per Twitter.

Also also, the secret Paragon project was a MOBA. David Nakayama posted some of the art on his deviantart page, but obviously gave very little information on it. (pixelsaurus.deviantart.com)

EDIT: I just checked, and the MOBA character art was removed from Nakayama's DA. I assume someone reminded him he doesn't own that art and could face legal ramifications for posting it. But I'm sure it still exists somewhere out there.

[Golden Girl]

They're understandably proud of their one quality game.

[Nos482]

If NCSucks really has Cryptic making some kind of CoX2, then they can go and shove it up their corporate @$$.
I will never again touch one of their products... gonna put my money on TPP instead.

[Eoraptor]

If NCSucks really has Cryptic making some kind of CoX2, then they can go and shove it up their corporate @$$.
I will never again touch one of their products... gonna put my money on TPP instead.

Don't care for the tone at all, but I agree... NCSoft lost a lot of business from me through this money grab. I will likely never play any of their titles again. If they thought illing CoH would drive people to their other, in-house titles, they were largely wrong, the vast majority of people I talk to still haven't touched GW, or Lineage, or any of their other stuff since the sunset. And we're pushing on a year since the anouncement now.

[srmalloy]

If NCSucks really has Cryptic making some kind of CoX2, then they can go and shove it up their corporate @$$.

If NCSoft thinks that they can make money on a sequel to CoH after honking off the entire playerbase of the prequel, then they're stupider than their actions make themselves out to be. If you have any intention of releasing a sequel to a game, you don't close the game until after the sequel launches; the moment a game shuts down, even with the kind of player loyalty that CoH players showed, you start hemorrhaging potential returnees -- and that's if the game shutdown was amicable and explained in an open and straightforward manner (i.e., if NCSoft had come out and said that, even after shutting down the 'second project' at Paragon, the studio had been losing money for a year, and they had to shut down the game, but they had a sequel in development, and they'd be putting the money that had been going into CoH into development of the sequel to make it a better game [although we know from experience that the likelihood of NCSoft actually being that honest and forthcoming ranks somewhere below the Sun spontaneously going out before sunrise tomorrow]). Coupled with the high-handed and customer-insensitive manner in which they conducted the shutdown, I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the old playerbase came back for an NCSoft-managed sequel.

[JaguarX]

If NCSoft thinks that they can make money on a sequel to CoH after honking off the entire playerbase of the prequel, then they're stupider than their actions make themselves out to be. If you have any intention of releasing a sequel to a game, you don't close the game until after the sequel launches; the moment a game shuts down, even with the kind of player loyalty that CoH players showed, you start hemorrhaging potential returnees -- and that's if the game shutdown was amicable and explained in an open and straightforward manner (i.e., if NCSoft had come out and said that, even after shutting down the 'second project' at Paragon, the studio had been losing money for a year, and they had to shut down the game, but they had a sequel in development, and they'd be putting the money that had been going into CoH into development of the sequel to make it a better game [although we know from experience that the likelihood of NCSoft actually being that honest and forthcoming ranks somewhere below the Sun spontaneously going out before sunrise tomorrow]). Coupled with the high-handed and customer-insensitive manner in which they conducted the shutdown, I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the old playerbase came back for an NCSoft-managed sequel.

Yeah dont think they are planning doing a sequel.

Look with guildwars. Instead of closing the original down for the sequel they let it be for a while then even letting it go into maintance mode. I figure they knew if they shelved GW one either while making GW2 or just prior to release it probably owuld have hurt the sells of GW2 severely.

Now I also figure they figured that most COX players that wasnt already playing the other games probably wouldnt switch there in large numbers either way. Thus when they closed the game, they probably didnt care or think or even worried about if those angry players were going to go to another game. They probably figured some might, but probably wasnt counting on it asa sure thing if at all. No sequel, COX target audience probably wouldnt play any of the other offerings anyways, then there is nothing left to entice them with or worth investing in the enticing them to spend money and might as well just write them off.

I think even if they shut COX down as amiblically as a nun and a saint, many still would be raging mad and others would nit pick everything the original COX was that the sequel isnt. With less than 100 grand of players, that is not a large pool for a sequel especially if they wasnt planning on a huge ad campaign, with the people that wouldnt play or give NCSOFT another dime before of the shut down regardless of how nice they put it, and those that my not find the sequel their cup of tea. That leaves very little potential guaranteed players that would switch over compared to GW which I think hit well over the 1 million sub mark up to at least 5 million and I dont think GW2 broke the 5 million mark. 2 I think. And that without the game closing down. So even at that rate, COX2 would have been looking at about 32,000-50,000 players maybe or some sort assuming the same rate of gw players to gw2 players.

[Bella Blackwood]

In my little world of glitter and unicorns, I have no problem wishing that this theory is correct.  I cling to the hope that either COH returns or that the Plan Z projects are successful.  And as much as I dislike NCSoft right now, if they offered a new COH or rerelease, I would be first in line....I just want it back!  I have nothing to officially add to support or debunk this theory other than a hopeful feeling (or intense desire) that this had been the strategy of NCSoft from the beginning.   COH did have a massive fan base but most of which came and went while others of us continued to live religiously in the world we loved.  Why would NCSoft save a game in which 6 months after new content arrived certain fickle players would already have tired of it and moved on to other things until a new issue or content arrived.  Perhaps they felt that it would be better suited to invest money and create a new and improved world that would keep the attentions of more players longer.  And by shutting the game down in advance, they gave a jolt of reality to everyone that COH wouldnt always be there when you decided to find your way back. And effectively made us all want the game even more. I know its just mainly wishful thinking and blind hope but who knows???   I will keep clinging to whatever bastion of hope there might be and believing that our beloved world will come back in one form or another!! Yes, I may be a hopeless optimist but God I miss it!!!

[healix]

I will keep clinging to whatever bastion of hope there might be and believing that our beloved world will come back in one form or another!! Yes, I may be a hopeless optimist but God I miss it!!!

This a thousand times...