Author Topic: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"  (Read 80766 times)

Metal Mountain

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2013, 07:50:47 PM »
Agreed.

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Optimus Dex

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2013, 07:53:47 PM »
Well, but then enter ED and then a tidal-wave of player-hatred that swept a lot of people out of the game.

Things always seemed to run more smoothly after he left. Many of my favorite features came about after he left.

Don't get me wrong, I would deal with this devil in order to play my game. But he's still wearing horns.  8)

I agree things seemed much better after he left. It depends IF he actually get the game back and if he leaves it as it was . I would be conflicted if they tried to roll it back to fit his - vision. Also would it be Cryptic buying it or Perfect World. Many thing to consider if this is legit.

dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 08:06:18 PM »
There are other ramifications tbat we're not considering, not least being resentment from the CO community. There is talk on their forum of taking a page out of our playbook and sending masks and capes to the Cryptic offices to try and inspire actual development effort into their game.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Ironwolf

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 08:10:21 PM »
The entire Jack Emmert issue is very simple - he is a terrible communicator.

The entire ED mess was one where the nerf and the roleout of the IO's recipes should have been in one issue together. So you could say we changed one style of character development for a better one and then it could be shown how with a well put together character under the new way you could do so much more.

The stupid response to ED in the infamous "People in MMO's come and they go, it doesn't matter." Yes, it did matter and it was PAINFUL.

He needed a filter between his brain and posting on the forums. He needed to run his posts through another person to see if he was actually saying what he thought he was saying. I do this now at work if I am replying to something important and I want to be clear. 

Optimus Dex

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 08:21:52 PM »
The entire Jack Emmert issue is very simple - he is a terrible communicator.

The entire ED mess was one where the nerf and the roleout of the IO's recipes should have been in one issue together. So you could say we changed one style of character development for a better one and then it could be shown how with a well put together character under the new way you could do so much more.

The stupid response to ED in the infamous "People in MMO's come and they go, it doesn't matter." Yes, it did matter and it was PAINFUL.

He needed a filter between his brain and posting on the forums. He needed to run his posts through another person to see if he was actually saying what he thought he was saying. I do this now at work if I am replying to something important and I want to be clear.



The whole ED mess and the mess over changing pvp and AE problems prove that  there should be someone filtering between devs and posting.

Harpospoke

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »
Mixed emotions.   I wasn't a big fan of Jack.   Not so much over ED...that didn't bother me much.   It was just his "I know how everyone should be playing" attitude.   Everything seemed aimed as "You decide how you want to play" after he left.   One wonders if we would have been able to do the things we did with IO's and the mission slider if he had stuck around.   I'm also wondering if he would have nerfed the crap out of my fun little Fire Controller.

But...if he can get CoH back...I'll be pretty happy and sing his praises.   I would probably be a little nervous that he would start hacking away at some of the things I loved about CoH though.

Perfidus

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2013, 09:05:15 PM »
There was a time this would've been the worst news ever. Now, it's the best news ever. Funny how times change.

TonyV

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2013, 09:12:02 PM »
It was just his "I know how everyone should be playing" attitude.   Everything seemed aimed as "You decide how you want to play" after he left.

That's part of being a game designer, though.  You have to keep in mind that sometimes the community is a terrible judge of what should and shouldn't be done.  By human nature, the community in general wants instant gratification.  As a game designer, you have to try to draw things out as long as you can to keep people paying you money.  Ideally, you can strike a balance between the two so that everyone is somewhat happy.  Sometimes you just plain can't, and the community gets upset.  Sometimes you try but you overshoot a mark, but one thing about an MMORPG is that you can never just sit on the status quo.

While I'm not a game designer, anyone who has had responsibility for making decisions that risk being unpopular can relate, which is why there were some things that I thought City of Heroes and the developers could do better, decisions that I thought weren't the right ones, but I always tried to be constructive and understanding even when things I didn't like were being rolled out.  But there were indeed several times when I wish the developers did NOT have such a "you decide how you want to play" attitude towards the game, times when I felt like we needed a Jack Emmert to put his foot down and say, "No, THIS is the direction we're going in.  You may not agree, but this is my living, and right or wrong I get the privilege of deciding that."  And there were times that Matt Miller and crew did in fact do this, but the community was blissfully unaware of it.

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2013, 09:26:51 PM »
As I said in the other thread, I don't think that Jack is overly worried about NCSoft taking him up on the offer, but it was a way for him to garner some positive publicity at a cheap price for both himself and Cryptic.

If Cryptic DID get COH back-- as long as they didn't also shut down as CO as I know people who love that game-- I would be perfectly okay with drop boxes in COH. I would even buy a few just to to help out the game.

And if they offered a lifetime sub, I would be all over that like a Fire Imp on a minion.  ;D


Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2013, 09:27:41 PM »
Man I wasn't even aware their was a Jack hate train.

Quote
You have to keep in mind that sometimes the community is a terrible judge of what should and shouldn't be done
  Lil Wayne.  Case and point.  (Just a joke people not a derailment)

No one is perfect, not Jack, not me, not you.  If they man can save our game who cares if he can be a bit of a loud mouth sometimes.  NCSoft weren't loud mouths and they shut down our game.

Mistress Urd

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2013, 09:37:10 PM »
I would love to see City of Heroes back up again. However, I doubt they would risk selling it back to Cryptic and having them make the game more successful.

JanessaVR

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2013, 09:43:44 PM »
I would love to see City of Heroes back up again. However, I doubt they would risk selling it back to Cryptic and having them make the game more successful.
Indeed, their egos - and the drubbing the MMO press would give them over Cryptic's success with reviving it after they casually threw it away (and still refuse to say why) - would be more than they could take.

Harpospoke

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2013, 09:45:58 PM »
That's part of being a game designer, though.  You have to keep in mind that sometimes the community is a terrible judge of what should and shouldn't be done.  By human nature, the community in general wants instant gratification.  As a game designer, you have to try to draw things out as long as you can to keep people paying you money.  Ideally, you can strike a balance between the two so that everyone is somewhat happy.  Sometimes you just plain can't, and the community gets upset.  Sometimes you try but you overshoot a mark, but one thing about an MMORPG is that you can never just sit on the status quo.

While I'm not a game designer, anyone who has had responsibility for making decisions that risk being unpopular can relate, which is why there were some things that I thought City of Heroes and the developers could do better, decisions that I thought weren't the right ones, but I always tried to be constructive and understanding even when things I didn't like were being rolled out.  But there were indeed several times when I wish the developers did NOT have such a "you decide how you want to play" attitude towards the game, times when I felt like we needed a Jack Emmert to put his foot down and say, "No, THIS is the direction we're going in.  You may not agree, but this is my living, and right or wrong I get the privilege of deciding that."  And there were times that Matt Miller and crew did in fact do this, but the community was blissfully unaware of it.
It's just that after he left, I felt like I could log on and make the game as easy or as hard as my mood dictated.   The mission slider was genius.   That allowed each and every player to tailor the game to what they wanted.

I am by nature a person who can get frustrated if things aren't going my way.   But on the CoH forums there would always be people who claimed they were bored with how easy something was...sometimes the very thing I may have been having problems with!  I can't imagine trying to "strike a balance" with that.   Giving the players a choice of styles to play should solve all the problems.   But....there are also those players who aren't satisfied that they get what they want...they want every other player to play the same way as well.  So throw that personality type into the mix too.    :P

UberGuy

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2013, 09:47:48 PM »
That's part of being a game designer, though.  You have to keep in mind that sometimes the community is a terrible judge of what should and shouldn't be done.  By human nature, the community in general wants instant gratification.  As a game designer, you have to try to draw things out as long as you can to keep people paying you money.  Ideally, you can strike a balance between the two so that everyone is somewhat happy.  Sometimes you just plain can't, and the community gets upset.  Sometimes you try but you overshoot a mark, but one thing about an MMORPG is that you can never just sit on the status quo.

All these things are true, but I firmly believe that everyone who was instrumental in CoH after Jack left did those same these things better than Jack did. Maybe that was Jack's bad luck, or everyone else's good luck. The truth is probably somewhere in between. What I will unreservedly credit Jack and his team with is a fantastic setting for Cryptic's game. Most of the flack I gave him was about seemingly inserting himself in game mechanical balance when he provably didn't know how the game worked. (In his defense, neither did the guys who were actually in charge of balance.  :P )

Now, Jack certainly wasn't a good communicator. By itself, that wouldn't have generated the distaste some parts of the community produced. I do think, though, that it exacerbated the perception that the game needed to cleave to his vision, everything else be damned. I doubt that was really his view, but that vision thing came often enough that he became perceived to have that view. Given that the game at release was about 10,000 miles from his vision in game mechanical terms, that was kind of a big deal.

I feel quite safe in saying pre-ED CoH was no more broken than post-Inventions CoH, and almost certainly less broken than post-Incarnate CoH (especially with IOs thrown in). Don't get me wrong - I personally loved most of the ways all those things "broke" the game. The point is that the game probably didn't "need" ED in a purist balance sense except that IOs and Incarnates, for any flaws, represented better growth of power over time than getting it all for "free" with pre-ED mechanics. They were probably better versions of how to "break" the game because it took some investment in time to earn them over and above just leveling up and buying SOs.

Ultimately, I believe the furor over ED became what it was mostly because it was a PR fiasco. It was leaked out of CoV closed beta,  came on the heels of the GDN (with an attached community interpretation no more similar nerfs were imminent), had an awfully obvious veneer of positive spin attached (that was actually Positron's, not Statesman's), and preceded its "replacement" in the form of Inventions by about 18 months.

Hindsight is 20/20 and all, but at the time, it was painful, and I think it could have been handled much, much better.

All that said, I would risk trusting Cryptic, and thus Jack, at the helm of a revived CoH. ED and all that stuff is water under a bridge far enough back I can't even see it any more. No one now is who they were back then, and Cryptic is the closest thing to a miraculously reformed Paragon Studios actually in existence, by virtue of their past history with the title.

Tanklet

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »
I never understood the Jack hate. I did come in after ED, but from what I gathered from various sides of the story, and my own years in playing CoH, it was necessary. IMO, the IO system we had was lightyears better and easier to understand than the gear grind fest in most other MMOs these days. So, yeah, he may be a terrible communicator, and, well, yeah that just is what it is but without him in the onset I highly doubt we'd have what we did.

All said & done, if he was serious, and at the very least left the game exactly as WE left it on 12/1/12, then I'd be the happiest camper you'd ever see. If ppl are wanting postcards, maybe we can come up with a design, or several designs and do a mailer campaign. I personally would prefer a CoH maintenance mode over no CoH at all.

If he wasn't at least minimally serious, it'd be the dumbest thing for any sentient being to say/do in front of recorders, and witnesses. Until I know different, I'm going to go on the premise that he's seriously interested in talking to NC$oft about City of Heroes. What can we do to help make that happen?

Spellcaster Hana

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2013, 09:55:55 PM »
I don't hate Jack but if he can save and take CoH off of NCsoft's hands, I'll give him all my money and respect.

I think he's doing this to gain the community's trust...or maybe he has an idea for CoH 2 since he knows CoH was a success, IF it's ever going to happen that is...
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dwturducken

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2013, 10:07:05 PM »
And another point on the plus side, does anyone else remember how bad the folks at Paragon said the code was for the game? What if we got some of the people who originally wrote it back on the case?  ;D
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 10:21:59 PM »
I love Jack's design for the city. I don't love it so much that I'm blind to the reality that Jack is very very bad at arithmetic.

The solution is simple: Jack needs to work with people who can do algebra and respect them for it.

No one can be all things.

Wyrm

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2013, 10:24:38 PM »
If he can pull it off, I need to re-budget at least $500/year from our household to funnel straight to Cryptic/PWE.

I've not spent a dollar on games since CoH went dark.  Please, Jack - give me a reason to change that.

Samuraiko

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Re: Jack Emmert re: CoH - "Tell NCsoft to call me"
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 10:39:32 PM »
Hey, at least if Cryptic gets it back, I know it'll still have demorecording. :)

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