Author Topic: Help out SEGS  (Read 65779 times)

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #160 on: March 10, 2013, 06:06:42 PM »
The emulator will be created, and HOPEFULLY as time passes, changes and additions will be made which will bring it more up to speed with the game as we left it. BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Let's not jump all over the creators, let's let them do their thing and see what happens as time passes. Even before the project is out of the starting gate, people are all antsy with the demands. Yikes.
Yup. This is probably best.

Yet at the same time, it's can of worms to say that a game or project will replace the game that is lost but then say that some stuff will not be included. Which give rise to the different things that made COX, well, COX to different people. If one thing is left out, then to that person who think that a certain feature is what made COX COX to them and find out it's being left out, then it wont be COX in their eyes. Only way to make COX COX is to basically make COX, which probably wont happen and thus someone will be left out at the discretion of the creator.

Could some more people create side projects and stuff? Sure they probably can, but will they? Depends. Many feel that with the thre three main things going on already dilute the efforts.

In the end, all we can do overall is see what happens and go from there. At the same time though, like anything on a public forum, if talk of opinions about what should it be and should not be or what should be included and should not be incuded or what people would like to see included or not included is not welcomed, that could have been stemmed out by not even announcing anything beyond, a project in the works, on a public forum or looking for support or else have to expect opinions especially when trying to gather support or help for said project, and not all of them are going to be straight praise with what is liked to be seen done.

Aint it lovely to see everyone with opinions and what made COX COX to them? If they was all the same, the internet and this forum would be a very quiet place.

Of course everyoen wont be pleased in the end. But that doesnt mean their opinion especially before hand doesnt matter even if it's the minority vote. It is what made COX COX to them and even if that was the same for every single COXer, then probably majority of these threads about the various projects wouldnt exist.

Telling people if they dont like it tough, while may be true, usually dont help. Hell we didnt like COX closing, and NCSoft basically said we are closing COX and not selling, deal with it. Yet, that didnt stop us from stating it was bad move and doing what we do. But that attitude did put a bad taste worse than the actual action in our mouths. Some of us who would otherwise have tried their other offerings probably wont just based off how they did the shutdown. Same here. Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.

Nightmarer

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #161 on: March 10, 2013, 06:23:46 PM »
Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.

And telling people "do it my way or don't do it at all" is better for business in your opinion?

See, not playing a game because a forum post would be a stupid thing to do. I'm sure anyone not playing any of the projects will be related to their enjoyment of the game they're playing and not because of some forum post.

Even the people who are told "don't play if you don't like X Project" have at least the choice of playing X Project or not, exactly the choice they deny everyone else by saying "do it my way or don't do it at all".-

Aggelakis

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #162 on: March 10, 2013, 06:45:58 PM »
There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.

SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees

community server: reverse-engineering the server data.

From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.

Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
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Ampithere

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #163 on: March 10, 2013, 06:48:02 PM »
1.) My characters can theoretically fight crime in a different city. BUT my own suspension of disbelief will suffer if I'm fighting NPCs that look exactly like 5th Column but are named 4th Column or something along those lines. The same holds true for flying through "Freedom Port." I'm sure I'd adjust to it eventually. To keep the lemonade metaphor going...it'd be like drinking powdered lemonade instead of fresh lemonade. It's kind of the same, but it just makes me want fresh lemonade.

2.) I didn't start an emulator project because I've got no idea how to write code of that particular nature. However, I'd have no problems hosting a server if it came to that. If we get to a stage that a CoH server is possible and nobody wants to risk hosting it, then I'll figure out a way to get one up and running.

3.) I have no problems with Plan Z because it is what it says it is. A new game. I have problems with the community server because it claims it's emulating City of Heroes. It is not. It's running a new game using City of Heroes tech. If the emulator doesn't use renamed CoH content then I'm fine with it and will figure out a reason for my characters to be in this new city. I just don't agree with using CoH maps and the like if it isn't going to be CoH. In a similar way I disapprove of mods to single player games that add a totally unrelated story but use the same maps as the original story.

4.) SEGS and the community server are two different projects. SEGS is what nemerle summarized a short while ago. The community server is a different project aimed at providing an I24+ game environment with the IP stripped out of it.

5.) I realize that everyone wants City of Heroes back. That's the point of my arguments. If we have the ability to do it and don't do it then that's a shame. Particularly when there's not really a legal precedent for it being illegal to host a server that operates using a client you did not write the code for. Assuming, of course, that you do not distribute that client.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #164 on: March 10, 2013, 06:50:54 PM »
There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.

SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees

community server: reverse-engineering the server data.

From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.

Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
Quoting myself to put it at the bottom of the page, because Ampithere posted without reading my post.
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Nebularian

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2013, 07:25:17 PM »
That depends on what precisely you mean by "City of Heroes".  It means different things to different people.  To some people, it was a way to spend time with their friends, and some of them have moved on to other games.  To them, their experience hasn't degraded that much; they're still spending time with their friends.  To some, it's the story, characters, art, etc.  Believe it or not, but some of them haven't been affected much, either.  They no longer have the world in which to act out their stories, but nothing is stopping someone from writing stories about Positron or drawing their characters, as long as they're not doing it for profit. 
  We still have people writing fan fiction and creating art based on City of Heroes characters. 

<reading this whole thread...shaking head>

First of all, I quoted ToneyV because I fall into this group. I have completely abandoned my previous Fan-fiction project (actually, I turned it over to another Fan-fiction writer to finish up and close out) and am creating a new "Primalverse" based on COH.

In another thread, I mentioned that I had tried SEGS offering...and decided that starting back at I3 was not for me (unlike a lot here, I am a virtual newcomer, having started only about 2 and a half years before the closing). 

To me, what I saw seemed like an alien game...something that LOOKED a bit similar to what I thought of as COH...but wasn't quite there.  So, while I gave kudos to SEGS for coming out with something many others could enjoy, it was not for me. So I uninstalled the COX client.

Of course, then some one had to be really mean and post a link that showed someone moving around in Atlas in the SEGS client.

That was all it took.  I have to reverse my position. No.   it is NOT the game I played. But it IS the setting I played in.   

So...I reinstalled the client...(of course I can't connect now....sigh..figures).  No....it isn't I23.  No...I don't expect I will ever see some of those contacts and missions ever again.   But that IS Paragon City and I think it would be fantastic to be able to fly around my city again...taking screenshots...And perhaps it would not be so bad to grow along with this as it grows.

As for the Community Server project.....this is the first I have heard of it being a separate project...I thought, as well, that it and SEGS were one and the same.
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Golden Girl

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2013, 07:58:08 PM »
I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP.

It if was legal, Plan Z would be using the CoH IP.

However, the "Heroes and Vilalins" IP, along with the gameplay and systems is being designed  and developed to make as smooth a transition as legally possible between Paragon City and Titan City for every character concept that players might have had over the past 8 years.
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Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2013, 09:10:10 PM »
Quote
X: Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.

We cannot cover all possible desires from all possible players; the projects have to have a starting point, and the creators have to do what they feel is best when it comes to protecting themselves legally.

If someone is going to go "If its not *exactly* the same as the game I left, I'm not playing" then that is very sad, but its also not a reasonable demand. Some folks expect the NCSoft servers to be turned back on, so we can pick up where we left off. We'd all like that!! But this is not happening, because for some arcane reason NCSoft seems to feel that we the playerbase deserve punishment, or something. You'd have to ask them.

Regardless: We're not getting that exact experience back. We can get all pouty about it, or we can pull our big-girl and -boy socks up and decide: "When I get the chance to fly again, by gorry I am going to take it, and put the best face I can on it." Those are our options, and I know which one I will be taking.




Lightslinger

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2013, 09:10:43 PM »
Here's how I see it:

If the "Community Server" team has decided to reverse engineer the server then add their own lore and characters, that was their decision. They are the ones doing the work and they get that right. Yes, I'd love to have CoH back and believe it will be back one day. However, I am glad for the work supposedly being done on the Community Server and I'll play and support it as soon as I can.

If you want CoH back how you think it should be then do what they did: put up or shut up. Form your own team and build it back the way you wanted it. Don't insult or complain to the people doing all the free work.

TonyV

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #169 on: March 10, 2013, 09:31:50 PM »
*sigh...  You people are hurting my brain.  I literally don't know how I can make this any simpler.  Stop knocking other people's projects.  I don't care if you think it's illegal, a colossal waste of time, or what.  People are working on what they want to work on, and there are several projects underway that pretty much any CoH fan can jump in and say, "THAT is where I want my effort to go."  If you want to contribute, ping someone who's associated with that projects.  If you don't, don't!  No one will make you.  All I ask is for people to stop making demands or trying to foist guilt trips upon other people who are doing what they want.

If you think that you can do a better job than we have of getting NCsoft to change their mind and turn the servers back on so that things can go back to just they way they were before, please do it!  I've already had one person do such and end-run around me, and believe it or not, I'm fine with that although things obviously haven't worked out on that front, either.

I really, really don't mind "This project is teh roxxorz!" posts.  But I'm getting a wee bit irritated at the posts telling or implying to other projects that they're not worthwhile.  It's not like if one group succeeds, all of the others will say, "Well, durn.  I guess that's it, that's the one that everyone wanted, let's just pack up and go home now."  So knock it off, and focus on the positive, not the negative.  Otherwise, you'll be doomed to a life of misery because, like I said, things will never go back to the way they were--but that doesn't mean that things can't be pretty durn good again.

P.S.  There's not just one "Community Server" team, and there likely won't be just one "Community Server."  I don't know how that impression got started, but let's stop propagating it.  There are at least two distinct projects that I know of that are counting on using the City of Heroes client files: SEGS and another project designed to create a compatible server with a much later version of the client.  Even if both of them are successful, I seriously doubt that it's likely that there will be just one server running the end result of each project.  There could be many servers with various content and rules in place.

Ironwolf

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #170 on: March 10, 2013, 10:53:38 PM »
Nemerle your project is absolutely what I want.

I personally want to use a tool that would enable me to make worlds based on the City of game play. What type of world editors would be useful?

I am trying to learn UDK 3 right now but it is slow and will take months to learn what I need to know - however - I am happy to buy other world artifacts pre-made or textures pre-made. If you have anything you want let us know - I mean if we can get Guy to Texas, I think we can help you get the tools you need.


Kistulot

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #171 on: March 10, 2013, 10:59:21 PM »
I'm sorry, I thought the save paragon city forum and the effort here was to get CoX back by whatever means. Since the 3 month shutdown that's been made crystal clear here but I must be high or something thinking of another forum somewhere.

We can support SEGs and other efforts while we wait for someone to want to buy the game. I dont see how thats a conflict of interests.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2013, 12:34:56 AM »
My absolute favourite option would be if NCSoft decided to sell the IP after all and we had the game running, with some of the devs back and with new owners keen to take it forward and to start with putting Issue 24 out. The thing is though, we're not going to get something like that unless NCSoft plays ball. So I for one find it very encouraging that there are so many ideas and projects underway, it gives me confidence that at some point in the future at least one of them will help capture what I enjoyed in CoH.

As for the server emulation issue itself it's been stated a few times here that most of the mission content and such is handled server-side. If we want that then somebody is going to need to add it in, it isn't a case of editing things out to make it IP neutral. That being the case the proposal as I understand it makes perfect sense.

You have several parties working to get a server running that will let us wander about the city and whatever else they're able to get going, though likely without missions and other NCSoft IP. I'm no lawyer, but it at least sounds like there's a strong case to make for this being legal. The server itself is making use of the client that we've obtained legally and it's communicating with that information in its own way.

Now, once any new server software is at that point then it would be great if somebody could release a version of Mission Architect or some other way to add missions to the sparse game world. From there I would imagine several servers may well spring up, some of which try to ape CoH directly and some of which are their own world. That way any legal risk from how the world content is set up will sit with the people running each server. But the project which created the server software in the first place should still be legal.

As far as I can tell doing things the proposed way isn't some sort of unpleasant compromise. It's a way to give the best of both worlds. Allowing some to get as close to City as they possibly can (with the inherent risk of NCSoft shutting them down) and allowing others to work with what they have to play something City-like but far enough removed to keep NCSoft away.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2013, 01:06:20 AM »
*sigh...  You people are hurting my brain.
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Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2013, 01:12:55 AM »
We can support SEGs and other efforts while we wait for someone to want to buy the game. I dont see how thats a conflict of interests.
I don't recall saying you couldn't. Or are you implying something else.

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2013, 01:59:55 AM »
And telling people "do it my way or don't do it at all" is better for business in your opinion?

See, not playing a game because a forum post would be a stupid thing to do. I'm sure anyone not playing any of the projects will be related to their enjoyment of the game they're playing and not because of some forum post.

Even the people who are told "don't play if you don't like X Project" have at least the choice of playing X Project or not, exactly the choice they deny everyone else by saying "do it my way or don't do it at all".-

 Neither absolute way is good for business is what I'm saying. Especially the part you placed in quotation marks in your statement.

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2013, 02:01:50 AM »


Regardless: We're not getting that exact experience back. We can get all pouty about it, or we can pull our big-girl and -boy socks up and decide: "When I get the chance to fly again, by gorry I am going to take it, and put the best face I can on it." Those are our options, and I know which one I will be taking.

Exactly.

Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2013, 03:10:22 AM »
I will state that I am not bashing anyones work or telling you how to do this or not to do this. But here's the series of events I've seen:

*Cox closure was announced

*Save paragon city movement launched beginning with some very very long posts and threads. In that thread the goal mentioned were to either save cox from shutting down or get someone to buy it. It was also mentioned that reverse engineering work was in progress as a last resort so we'd be able to play again someday.

*sentinel plus is released. A tool to backup all of your character data, badges, etc

*Cox shuts down

*i24 Costume creator unlocked

*players begin to babble about legal concerns

Eventually someone stated that any emulated server wouldn't be having previous content but instead all new content. Which leaves me scratching my head in confusion. I had high hopes and still really do and I have tried to reassure people that eventually we'll be running msrs, hamidon, bafs and itfs again. Because you know it's being worked on or as I had thought based off information.

I'm sensing alot of hostility in this thread and the other private server thread much like the offical cox forum had; it really needs to stop.

I look forward to all projects but it seems communication is really far off from what I thought was going on.

Aggelakis

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2013, 05:50:35 AM »
There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.

SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees

community server: reverse-engineering the server data.

From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.

Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
Quoting myself AGAIN because people apparently STILL haven't read it.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2013, 06:02:02 PM »
What's the "short, short version", Aggelakis? :p