Author Topic: Help out SEGS  (Read 65771 times)

Codewalker

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2013, 01:27:41 AM »
Not quite, and SEGS is a little bit worse off on that front, because the powers info that exists on the client didn't have effect data in it until somewhere between Issue 11 and 12, when it was added for real numbers. So they're basically going to have to re-implement all of the powers from memory.

The responsibility for sending mission text has AFAIK always been server-side. At certain points during history -- including at launch -- the client has had a copy of the localized NPC dialog and mission text, but didn't actually use it. It was apparently there by mistake, and while it includes the text, it doesn't include any information about how it's used in the mission. Contact and mission definitions have always been serverside only.

Definitively, earlier clients have:
  • Zone geometry -- including spawn points, but not the information of what to spawn there (except for static NPCs like trainers)
  • Sound effects / music
  • Costume information
  • NPC models, which in some cases are no different from player costumes
  • Enhancement combination and effectiveness tables
  • Store inventories
  • Shaders and information necessary for rendering textures
  • Class tables, including damage modifiers (though with missing powers data this is somewhat less useful)
  • Animations, including sequencing information when one animation leads in to another
  • AI behavior aliases, which aren't a full script by any means but give some clues
  • Store inventories
  • Basic power information -- Name, Description, Endurance Cost, Recharge time, Accuracy, Target Types, and the animation info for activation. No detailed info about effects, so no damage numbers, or information about what FX to play on affected targets.
  • Experience tables

Later, post real-numbers clients also have:
  • Full powers data, with effects, requirements, etc. Everything you need once the system pieces are implemented.
  • NPC definitions, including names, level ranges, and powers (apparently added for pet summons to show up in real numbers, but includes all villain groups as well)
  • Recipes and salvage information
  • Just about all of the SG base stuff
  • Everything you'd need to run the AE user interface, but you still need a mapserver to play it because functionally the missions are the same as normal missions

There are a few notable exceptions. Earlier clients had emotes -- the mapping of typing /em [name] and having it mapped to state bits that the animation system uses, but it was removed in later versions and was apparently strictly serverside. The animations are there but there's no mapping from the name of it to which one to play.

Combat modifiers also used to exist clientside, but were removed at some point. Those are fairly well documented in any event so no big loss there.

The biggest pieces that have never existed on the client are the contact and mission scripts, as well as zone event scripts, spawn information, and things like that. There's a few odds and ends that are missing as well, but nothing as major as those.

Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2013, 07:29:41 AM »
Noyjitat, the community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but...  ;D
people want cox back. Not a costume creator, not atlas park. They want the game and its content like any other private server. You guys can say the everything is going to be legal thing but its just a form of deception. You know it, I know it, the code monkeys know it. Hell logic knows it. Why the fuck would you waste time reverse engineering a game to play it again to not restore the lost content and features. You'd be better off making an entirely new game or doing endless funraisers to buy the existing game.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2013, 08:56:51 AM »
people want cox back. Not a costume creator, not atlas park. They want the game and its content like any other private server. You guys can say the everything is going to be legal thing but its just a form of deception. You know it, I know it, the code monkeys know it. Hell logic knows it. Why the pancake would you waste time reverse engineering a game to play it again to not restore the lost content and features. You'd be better off making an entirely new game or doing endless funraisers to buy the existing game.

Then you can spend effort to make it more CoX for you. Since we arent the ones doing the grunt work, I dont think we really get to judge how it ends up.

I for one am just glad that someone is bothering to try doing this at all. I might want the code released once its done, but by no means does that mean that they should feel required to do so. I may want everything like it was, but that by no means should mean they have to bow to my whims when I'm not supporting them financially, and they aren't asking me to. They're just offering to give us something, if they can.

Considering no one has even given a time table for ANY version of CoX to emerge from the cracks, I think that this, and any arguement that in any way acts like those working on such a thing should be beholden to anyone elses desires, is just... a little selfish. Not rudely, and not intentionally. But that's how it feels from this end.

I just want something back. I've had no game. No City of Heroes, content or not.

When it comes down to it what I want CoX for is for Argent. If I can get it back, the rest can go from there.

Though I've never been able to find Libby's chestpiece in the costume creator even post unlocks, so that might be an issue...
Woo! - Argent Girl

Ampithere

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2013, 01:56:01 PM »
It's great that people have characters that can exist and make them happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for all of you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?

From the initial murmurs of this project everyone has said that everything that made us happy about CoH would be included. I agree with the argument that ultimately it's the coders project and they have the right to make it what they want. But, they have put themselves in a position where a group of players is left out of this hopeful future they're trying to create. I'm of the mind that the community server should be i24 CoH with no changes whatsoever and NCSoft can suck it. I realize that may not be technically legal. However, private servers are all over the internet for other MMOs (some of which are still running) and nothing has happened to those. I truly believe that fear of legal action by NCSoft is a waste of time. They won't do anything.

Of course, I can understand that the people behind the project might be a bit more fearful of legal action. After all, it's their necks on the line - not mine. So why not minimal changes? Find out exactly what NCSoft can and cannot take action for. If a few signature characters have to be gone, fine. That can be explained easily enough from a story perspective. As long as the developers of the server aren't distributing the client files, there shouldn't be an issue. You won't have copied anything that NCSoft owns. All you did is make a product that works with their game files. Most of us still have the client files, and those that don't will be able to get them discreetly from other players. That would hardly be the fault of the emulator developers.

And yes, scripting and such has to be done no matter how much is changed from the official CoH. However, we have tons of maps and NPC models and sound files and everything else at our fingertips. Use them. No reason to make new ones. As someone else said, if you make new ones you might as well make a new game. In any case, it's not much of an emulator if it doesn't actually emulate the game it's based on.

Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 02:05:08 PM by Ampithere »
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Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »
Quote
That's great that your character can exist and make you happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not meet my needs?

No one game can be all things to all people. I am sorry that an emulator will not meet your needs, but there are plenty of people out there who are just like me, in that their characters have no connection at all to any game lore. Well, my SoA does but that is about it. Everyone else can be worked around.

Since the emulator will be around issue 3-4 [?] though, my SoA won't be able to come out to play for a while.

What's bugging me is the idea of people saying "It does not meet MY needs, therefore I don't want it to happen." There are plenty of people who do want it to happen. Why not give it a try and see what happens? Make a new character who is not bound to the lore so tightly.

Quote
Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.

*sigh* Then you don't have to participate.

Ampithere

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2013, 02:15:54 PM »
No one game can be all things to all people. I am sorry that an emulator will not meet your needs, but there are plenty of people out there who are just like me, in that their characters have no connection at all to any game lore. Well, my SoA does but that is about it. Everyone else can be worked around.

Since the emulator will be around issue 3-4 [?] though, my SoA won't be able to come out to play for a while.

What's bugging me is the idea of people saying "It does not meet MY needs, therefore I don't want it to happen." There are plenty of people who do want it to happen. Why not give it a try and see what happens? Make a new character who is not bound to the lore so tightly.

SEGS seems to be entirely using the game as it existed in issue 3-4. My posts are more concerned with the "community server."

And I agree that my initial post was a bit more harsh than it needed to be, which is why I edited it even while you were responding to it.

I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP. But to us it seems selfish that the rest of you make no attempt to understand where we are coming from. I assure you that it's my love for CoH that makes me say the emulator should be City of Heroes. I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?

As far as the one game can't be all things for all people argument...that's obviously false. We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2013, 02:19:49 PM »
*sigh* Then you don't have to participate.

Precisely the argument that's most annoying to me. I'm not allowed to say I don't want to see an emulator without CoH IP, but you're allowed to tell me that I don't get to have an emulator.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2013, 02:55:04 PM »
I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?

Until one takes on the responsibility of actually performing this task (emulator) one can't really claim to know what another goes through mentally in terms of legalities and risk.  Will they or won't they come after me legally and to what extent am I exposed?  What if it affects my family and personal assets?  Jesh...for the person(s) hosting this emulation, these are troublesome scenarios for sure and as you state above have we seen anything rock solid to make our host feel "safe"?  Not really.  Legal issues are a pain in the rear...they drain you mentally and financially.  You can be a good person with good intentions and get completely screwed.  As players, we should step back and let the host create what he/she feels is safe or start you own emulator.  Like I said before unless NCsoft sells or re-issues the game it will not be the same, legally full proof without assumptions that is, unless someone is willing to say "the hell with it let's roll the dice here".

Noyjitat

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2013, 03:05:51 PM »
Then you can spend effort to make it more CoX for you. Since we arent the ones doing the grunt work, I dont think we really get to judge how it ends up.

I'm sorry, I thought the save paragon city forum and the effort here was to get CoX back by whatever means. Since the 3 month shutdown that's been made crystal clear here but I must be high or something thinking of another forum somewhere.

JaguarX

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2013, 03:06:54 PM »
Lets not turn on each other yet.

We knew from the start that each person vision of what COH is to them, is different. When a product is ad. as community game or comminuty server, that is assuming that it's made for the community taste. We all co-existed under one game before and by it being ad as community server it is assumed it also a game/server/reverse engineered/data hack/cpu rebuild etc is aimed at all those that was part of the community. If it was actually made for a particular PART of the the community, that should be said from the get go. 

Either way it's impossible short of bringing back COH back as it was shut off to gather the whole community. Thus by nature some will be left off unfortunatley, but telling them they dont have to participate and other things of the likes is not helpful. We all know that but they have every right to an opion of what they are looking for like anyone else. If the game is meant to be SEGS view only, then this thread wouldnt exist. But if it's a community project made by the community for the community then of course members of the community will state what drew them to COX and what they would like to play. And some of those desires might be easily done, might be hard to do, may not be legal to do, may be not possible to do, and etc. but that doesnt make their view or what they wish to play anymore less important than those that will get their wish.

I know it's SEGS projects and stuff, but if opinions are not welcomed, then why post anything about it on a public forum? And with opinions, it will different from person to person. Some people want to play their characters and lore is important. Some dont care as long it feel like COX in some semblence. While others feel their characters will be lost forever even in story without certain aspects of the game. Some might not play if Talos Island is not included while another will not play if Talos Island is included. Ultimately it depends on the people doing the project to decide will Talos be included or not but both opinions of whether or not Talos is important is just as valid as any.
And out of all people that should not being trying to silence other people opinions is many people here. Especially when they constantly complained about people trying to silence them from griefing over a game. It is sad to see some turn around and portray that same behavior

Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2013, 03:42:52 PM »
Precisely the argument that's most annoying to me. I'm not allowed to say I don't want to see an emulator without CoH IP, but you're allowed to tell me that I don't get to have an emulator.

This is because if you get your way, none of us will get to see an emulator. Nobody.

However you could simply decline to play on an emulator that you dislike, which would meet your needs WITHOUT impacting the wishes of many, many other people.

Quote
We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.

Yes, we ALL want it back, but we are not going to GET it back. We have been handed lemons, and some people have decided to make lemonade out of those lemons. However, you seem to be saying "If its not *pink* lemonade, then I say NO ONE gets any lemonade!" and that's kind of upsetting to some of us.

Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.

I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 03:48:02 PM by Illusionss »

r00tb0ySlim

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2013, 03:57:39 PM »

Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.

I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.

Hear Hear!!!  It's really that simple.  I am supporting all efforts and that includes SEGS  :D

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2013, 04:19:30 PM »
Ooops
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 04:33:42 PM by Nightmarer »

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2013, 04:22:07 PM »
Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.

I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.

Yep! This is pretty much how I see it too. I'll try out all the different projects when they're ready, I mean I'm bound to like at least one of them. Cause I ain't no lemonade chef either.

Nightmarer

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2013, 04:31:21 PM »
Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?

Afraid you're barking at the wrong tree, NCSoft punished you, not anyone trying to create a community server.-

Quote
From the initial murmurs of this project everyone has said that everything that made us happy about CoH would be included. I agree with the argument that ultimately it's the coders project and they have the right to make it what they want. But, they have put themselves in a position where a group of players is left out of this hopeful future they're trying to create. I'm of the mind that the community server should be i24 CoH with no changes whatsoever and NCSoft can suck it. I realize that may not be technically legal. However, private servers are all over the internet for other MMOs (some of which are still running) and nothing has happened to those. I truly believe that fear of legal action by NCSoft is a waste of time. They won't do anything.

And yet from previous posts you seem to agree with Plan Z projects which will be even more different and to CoH than any community server. In any case, their effort, their choice.-

Quote
Of course, I can understand that the people behind the project might be a bit more fearful of legal action. After all, it's their necks on the line - not mine.

Can you really? It doesn't look like you can understand that.-


Quote
So why not minimal changes? Find out exactly what NCSoft can and cannot take action for. If a few signature characters have to be gone, fine. That can be explained easily enough from a story perspective. As long as the developers of the server aren't distributing the client files, there shouldn't be an issue. You won't have copied anything that NCSoft owns. All you did is make a product that works with their game files. Most of us still have the client files, and those that don't will be able to get them discreetly from other players. That would hardly be the fault of the emulator developers.

So why don't you start an emulator project by yourself?

Quote
And yes, scripting and such has to be done no matter how much is changed from the official CoH. However, we have tons of maps and NPC models and sound files and everything else at our fingertips. Use them. No reason to make new ones. As someone else said, if you make new ones you might as well make a new game. In any case, it's not much of an emulator if it doesn't actually emulate the game it's based on.

Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.

Again, why not start an emulator project yourself? You seem to have the knowledge and certainly, you are the one who knows what suits your tastes best.-



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I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP.

It sounds more like "I don't want to play and I want to take my ball home with me so none of you can play either", except that its not your ball, even if you act as if it were.-


Quote
But to us it seems selfish that the rest of you make no attempt to understand where we are coming from. I assure you that it's my love for CoH that makes me say the emulator should be City of Heroes. I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?

I do understand where do you come from and I'm sure many others do, again, if it's not what you want it to be then just don't try it or make one yourself to suit your tastes.-




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As far as the one game can't be all things for all people argument...that's obviously false. We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.

Barking at the wrong tree again, afraid only NCSoft can give back what you want by either getting it live again or selling the IP to someone who does.-

Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2013, 04:40:25 PM »
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X: We all co-existed under one game before and by it being ad as community server it is assumed it also a game/server/reverse engineered/data hack/cpu rebuild etc is aimed at all those that was part of the community. If it was actually made for a particular PART of the the community, that should be said from the get go. 

CoX could not please everyone, all the time even as a game that had been on the stove, as it were for eight years. Yet people think that an emulator from ISSUE 3 OR 4 is going to be everything to everyone, all at the same time, right out of the gate. This is not a realistic expectation.

The emulator will be created, and HOPEFULLY as time passes, changes and additions will be made which will bring it more up to speed with the game as we left it. BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Let's not jump all over the creators, let's let them do their thing and see what happens as time passes. Even before the project is out of the starting gate, people are all antsy with the demands. Yikes.

Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2013, 04:44:17 PM »
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Nightmare: And yet from previous posts you seem to agree with Plan Z projects which will be even more different and to CoH than any community server.

This is a good point. If one is so dogmatic about CoX lore, what on earth use would any version of Plan Z be to them? And I am not being snarky, I am honestly curious.

I'm much more flexible, my characters will survive a move to a new City. Who knows, that city might even be a better neighborhood.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 04:49:28 PM by Illusionss »

Ironwolf

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2013, 04:48:09 PM »
I see a great deal of what about me and my needs but very little about - what does Nemerle need.

Nemerle, what do YOU need as help in this endeavor? I am not a code monkie as such but I would be willing to do grunt work. Even if it is slavishly entering data into spread sheets - I would be more than willing to help.

We want to be heroes, it's what we do and saying - you don't understand my needs - is incorrect. We all NEED to be heroes in our City once more - but if we can't perhaps we can be new heroes in another City.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2013, 05:06:06 PM »
It's great that people have characters that can exist and make them happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for all of you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?
I have a character, my most advanced Incarnated character, whose bio states that he was an involuntary subject in a Council project along with a Kheldian. With the Kheldian's assistance, he managed to escape. Yet, he can still fight crime in some city other than Paragon City.

I am curious, in what way are your characters unplayable in an emulator that does not explicitly state that it is City of Heroes? There is nothing keeping you from alluding to  CoT, Arachnos, or any other CoH lore in your character's bio. They would just be in a different city fighting crime there. I'm just wondering why your characters are incapable of leaving Paragon City, The Rogue Isles, or Preatoria.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

nemerle

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2013, 05:48:08 PM »
Nemerle, what do YOU need as help in this endeavor? I am not a code monkie as such but I would be willing to do grunt work. Even if it is slavishly entering data into spread sheets - I would be more than willing to help.
Thanks Ironwolf, strangely enough, I was expecting that question a bit earlier then this :D

My main motivation in working on SEGS is providing people with a tool-set that would allow them to create super-hero themed universes. Even though we're currently concentrating on recreating the functionality needed to run the CoX clients I hope that the components and tools that we create along the way can, and will be used by other projects.
( and yes SEGS is open source, and it's using a license that is compatible with using it's code in commercial applications )

So, what help You guys can provide ? Even if you're not comfortable with the idea of emulation, there are very many things that will have to be done for each and every project:
Tooling for example:
  • Administrative tools
  • User facing web applications
  • World editing tools.
  • Asset distribution framework ( since we don't have anything like cohupdater anymore )
  • ... many other things I'm forgetting right now and am quite sure other projects could add to this list many common and useful things  :)
What can You do to help bring those things about  ?
Usually when one takes on a task of creating a software project, one goes around and asks the fine people that will end up using that software, "what do You want this to do ?".
Which has a fancy name of "requirements capturing",  but in it's most basic form is just telling a story about what You imagine the tool should do.
Take for example CoH's Mission Architect component:
Do we have a full description of it's functionality, it's failings, and things it was lacking ? I don't know, I hope we do :)
Can we write a wish list for Mission Architect v2.0 ? That we can do, even if for everyone the list of features will look a bit different, there will be some things that most of us can agree on, and every project will want at least some of those things available in their particular rendition of super-themed universe.

Given all that, at the most basic level what all the projects need, are people that believe in them - just like fairies, we must be believed in or we just disappear :D