Author Topic: Help out SEGS  (Read 65788 times)

Absolute

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2013, 04:52:32 AM »
I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content.

The server emulator will be CoH and won't be CoH. It's a matter of perspective, and it matters what CoH was to you personally. The emulator is CoH in it's early years. So while it is CoH, the fact that so much of it isn't actually there means that it doesn't appeal to some people, while appealing a lot to others.

The current emulator has the most progress than every other project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I

That being said, to some people that isn't progress at all, because that isn't the CoH they knew and probably never will be. There's no arguing with that either.


So with all this said, compared all the projects, SEGS has the most progress and the least progress. It's our best hope and to others, no hope.

Why are the resources split? People want different things. If you are right and we should put all of our resources together, where do we put them?

Isn't a coder much more valuable when they feel somewhat passionate about what they're working on and care much more about the results? (Mirroring what VV said above)

Is it really smart to put all our eggs in one basket? SEGS could receive a C&D letter tomorrow. The Phoenix Project could split again. TF Hail Mary could be in the works of selling the IP at this moment.

Considering how many people we have, I think we're very organized. There's 3-4 big projects, and one main forum for all of them (These boards).


(The argument you've made can also be said for the other side. "What are the Plan Z's doing splitting our resources, they should go help SEGS!". I'd rather people help where they want and where they are most useful)

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2013, 04:55:26 AM »
If a group of coders can put out a Star Wars emulator with John Williams's music, Stormtroopers, Han Solo and Darth Vader all in the game, and have neither Sony, nor Lucasarts, nor Disney say a word or do a thing to stop it, I honestly don't think leaving in the Rikti and Arachnos or taking out these things are going to make a difference...either way.

If NCsoft wants to get snooty about it, taking out things like Manticore isn't going to help matters.  Nor is it going to hurt matters, if NCsoft isn't going to care.

Codewalker

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2013, 05:08:05 AM »
As far as I know the people who are working on such projects aren't really interested in Plan Z to begin with. So it's not like those groups are missing out on anything.

Ampithere

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2013, 05:10:01 AM »
If a group of coders can put out a Star Wars emulator with John Williams's music, Stormtroopers, Han Solo and Darth Vader all in the game, and have neither Sony, nor Lucasarts, nor Disney say a word or do a thing to stop it, I honestly don't think leaving in the Rikti and Arachnos or taking out these things are going to make a difference...either way.

If NCsoft wants to get snooty about it, taking out things like Manticore isn't going to help matters.  Nor is it going to hurt matters, if NCsoft isn't going to care.

My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2013, 06:26:09 AM »
I think it extremely unwise to dictate to other people what they "should" and "should not" do/reveal/contribute to.  Demands never earn friends.

You also don't win friends with salad.

So if you can, try not to make Devouring Earth enemies walk through every part of city.
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2013, 07:07:08 AM »
My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.

There's no "leaving in". The old stuff has to be re-created from scratch to be usable with new server software. Unless you happen to have the mission scripts (including stuff like spawn information) lying around somewhere in a machine-readable format?

Nobody is talking about replacing zone geometry and stuff. Those are on your client anyway, so any server can legally use them as-is. It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park", but fortunately it doesn't need to. It just calls it City_01_01.

This is about mission text, and no matter what is done with the software, somebody is going to have to create missions, NPC dialog, etc. to plug in to it. Whether it's original content or an attempt to reproduce the COH content is up to whoever takes up that task. But until a viable server exists, it's a moot point.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2013, 08:16:10 AM »
My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.
The problem is, there is no old stuff to leave in. Contacts, missions, enemy group, AI, even the combat system, was all on the server. The client was little different from a graphical MUD front-end.

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2013, 08:57:14 AM »
It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park"

If NCSoft wants to send you a cease and desist, then changing the name of Atlas Park or changing the name or appearance of a villain group (I'm not sure how far you intend to go with those changes) or changing the text of a mission won't stop them. It won't. I hope I'm never in a position to say I told you so. I'm not a dick. Watching ya'll pour all of that extra retconning work into the I24 community server just for nothing--it wouldn't vindicate me, I'd gain no satisfaction; it would make me feel awful. It would be depressing to watch.

I have only deep admiration for you guys. And, well, please excuse a bit of indignant whining, but it's unfair for Tony to say that I've pigeonholed the community. I've shown a great deal of understanding for differences, and shown a great deal of tolerance. Tony has complimented me for it a few times. When people talk smack, I defend the projects here and the people behind them in the broadcast channels of other games. I know memories tend to grow short in the heat of the moment, and this is a pretty strong difference of opinion. But it doesn't mean that I'm drawing a permanent line in the sand or preparing to slander anyone beneath every Massively article or something. I hope no one else does either.

But I consider it far more rude to show up and complain after something launches. If you care that much, then you ought to speak your piece as early as possible.

On the main forums, people would gather together and go nuts on the devs over some typos or a story arc they felt was full of plot holes. Of course, some people took things for granted, having no idea the game's days were numbered. It was mostly awesome work by the devs. The people who created that content were working in a professional environment and capacity, paid to work all business-day long, for many years. On top of that, they passed everything through QA. So, yes, I'm in the camp that doesn't think we ought to scrap all of that hard work.

Initially, when the I24 community server launches, most anyone will be glad to come back no matter what you do. Replace every villain group with anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. OK. When they're hungry in the desert, few people are food critics. But wait until they're feeling more like themselves. So this is what I believe will happen. If you gut and replace much of the work put into the fictional game world by Paragon Studios, you'll bewilder and disappoint many who just wanted Paragon City back; who wanted to, once again, fight alongside or against the Freedom Phalanx. NCSoft may have shut City of Heroes down but people will say that you destroyed Paragon City. They'll ask why you appropriated their favorite game world and turned it into your own personal AE mission. And then they'll start being mean.

You'd be rightly inspired to reply that you're doing this for free. But when your fans say "You didn't ask us about this," they won't purely be acting like self-entitled jerkwads. I expect some of them will be genuinely shocked and upset, and you ought to give your understanding (and nothing less) when they express themselves. My roommate was pretty upset when I told him about this. He said it was just one more slap in the face from the City of Heroes closure (and he's not even aware of that meme). He wouldn't talk about it after that. You may feel like the ungrateful bastards ought to just be happy that they have a game at all. And you'd be partly right. But that would also mean you learned not much from watching Paragon Studios interact with the community over the years. Huge sweeping changes, particularly those which felt arbitrary, never earned the devs many big smiles.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 09:30:26 AM by Captain Electric »

Nightmarer

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2013, 10:06:35 AM »
I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project?

You can think about the server emulator as another CoH spiritual successor.-


Quote
Why divide our resources across so many different projects?

Because different people want different things, and having options is better than not having them.-



Quote
If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me?

Playing probably the closest CoH spiritual successor that can be created.-

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2013, 10:20:00 AM »
On all of your points, Nightmarer, I am forced to agree, as long as I'm being honest with myself. Earlier tonight I watched the YouTube video linked in my signature, and for a while it made me want to make a 360 degree turn and post, "Screw it, do whatever it takes, I don't care, just bring it back." I won't be one of the people saying some of the meaner things I expect a lot of people to say. If I can't change anyone's mind, I'll join you. Bring on the anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. But I also have a tremendous amount of respect for the world that Paragon Studios built, and I was a big fan of it; not a chance in hell I'd stay quiet while someone talks about scrapping it. Questions like this make me feel like I'm choosing between our old devs and our new volunteer fan content-writing team (and I have no idea who is on that team or what they're doing to our city).

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2013, 11:12:39 AM »
You also don't win friends with salad.

So if you can, try not to make Devouring Earth enemies walk through every part of city.

Exactly! We can't go around littering the new place like we did the old one. So when we get back in somewhere, remember... clean up your ambushes, people! A tidy city is a healthy city. ;)

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #131 on: March 09, 2013, 12:07:38 PM »
But I also have a tremendous amount of respect for the world that Paragon Studios built, and I was a big fan of it; not a chance in hell I'd stay quiet while someone talks about scrapping it.

So do I and I am perfectly (and painfully) aware that a CoH community server where Paragon City is not Paragon City is not the best solution, not by a mile, I just deem it as the second best solution and try not to look back.

At the end of the day, what we have in the works on Plan Z is even worse (in that sense, please do not take this out of context) a game totally different to CoH but with same UI to "capture the CoH spirit". I still think we'll fare better on Paragon City even if it's not called Paragon City, but that's just me.-


Dammit, that'd be the heck of a name for a SG, "Salad Friends".-
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:14:42 PM by Nightmarer »

Twisted Toon

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #132 on: March 09, 2013, 01:45:21 PM »
There's no "leaving in". The old stuff has to be re-created from scratch to be usable with new server software. Unless you happen to have the mission scripts (including stuff like spawn information) lying around somewhere in a machine-readable format?

Nobody is talking about replacing zone geometry and stuff. Those are on your client anyway, so any server can legally use them as-is. It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park", but fortunately it doesn't need to. It just calls it City_01_01.

This is about mission text, and no matter what is done with the software, somebody is going to have to create missions, NPC dialog, etc. to plug in to it. Whether it's original content or an attempt to reproduce the COH content is up to whoever takes up that task. But until a viable server exists, it's a moot point.
So basically, it'll be a new city with a new story? They'll just be re-using the maps from CoH.
As long as my characters "feel" the same as they did in Paragon City, I think I can live with a new city and a new story.

Initially, when the I24 community server launches, most anyone will be glad to come back no matter what you do. Replace every villain group with anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. OK. When they're hungry in the desert, few people are food critics. But wait until they're feeling more like themselves. So this is what I believe will happen. If you gut and replace much of the work put into the fictional game world by Paragon Studios, you'll bewilder and disappoint many who just wanted Paragon City back; who wanted to, once again, fight alongside or against the Freedom Phalanx. NCSoft may have shut City of Heroes down but people will say that you destroyed Paragon City. They'll ask why you appropriated their favorite game world and turned it into your own personal AE mission. And then they'll start being mean.

My personal belief is that as long as the characters "feel" the same, most people aren't going to really care all that much what the city is called. They'll just be able to pound evil like before.

Exactly! We can't go around littering the new place like we did the old one. So when we get back in somewhere, remember... clean up your ambushes, people! A tidy city is a healthy city. ;)
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Illusionss

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #133 on: March 09, 2013, 03:29:40 PM »
Gawd almighty.

People are interested in SEGS and like projects BECAUSE IT MAY BE LITERALLY YEARS BEFORE WE SEE ANY VERSION OF PLAN Z COME TO LIGHT. Years. I hope not, but it may be years.

I dont want to wait 5 years to recreate my main. I want him back NOW. I have been separated from my characters for 3 months and it is already killing me.

When Plan Z comes to fruition, I will be there with bells on. Meanwhile, people not wanting to get on an emulator dont have to do it, and those of us who DO, who have character concepts in our heads strong enough to be able to survive that guy standing on an aircraft carrier in IP not being named "Statesman"... well we can do that, too.

No one is forcing anyone unhappy that NCIdiocracy is NOT going to give us that exact game back, to participate. Fine. Please do not rain on everyone else's parade though.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:39:38 PM by Illusionss »

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #134 on: March 09, 2013, 03:37:08 PM »
Quote
Twisted: Back in the day, I used to announce DE ambush spawns in lower level zones when I saw them.
Nothing like running around a corner and getting trampled by a forest 20 levels above you rushing down the street.

I remember the days when level 40 Luddites used to spawn near Fort Darwin in Mercy. You'd be cutting down a back alley and OOPS. We also used to have Level 50 CoT spawn by the ferry in Sharkhead. The Sharkhead spawns in particular used to be really fun, since you had more firepower to work with. Someone would yell out in Broadcast and everyone in the zone would come running for the epic beat-down. Fun and expees had by all.

Hey, I just thought of something: if the server will be at issue 3 or 4, isnt that *before* ED? I missed all that, I want to six-slot stuff for damage just to say I did.  8)

Codewalker

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #135 on: March 09, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »
I have only deep admiration for you guys. And, well, please excuse a bit of indignant whining, but it's unfair for Tony to say that I've pigeonholed the community.

Again, people are making HUGE assumptions and completely missing the point.

Nobody is retconning anything. We need server software as a first step. We're not "pulling out" existing content, because we don't have it to begin with. Any content work that is done after the software exists will have to be done no matter what.

The whole point is to create software that doesn't infringe on the IP, so that it can be distributed and people can take it and build whatever they want on top of it. Possibly including re-creating the COH content (which would of course be infringement). Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's a lot harder to put it back in. But we need to be able to get to that point without interference in order for it to be successful.

Do I expect it will prevent NCSoft from sending a Cease & Desist letter? No, probably not, at least if they can figure out where to send it. Corporate lawyers are dicks and they'll probably send one to anyone even if they don't have a valid claim, expecting them to fold. However that's not the point. The point is to put the programming teams in a legally defensible position so that if it does come to a legal battle, hopefully the community can be rallied and win, maybe even giving them a black eye in the process if interesting internal documents can be subpoenad during discovery.

Because the software itself will be 100% kosher, and that's the biggest piece of the puzzle that the community is missing.

r00tb0ySlim

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #136 on: March 09, 2013, 04:10:45 PM »
I get it and I am good with it.  The game exactly as we know it will never exist legally unless they decide to sell it as complete or re-issue it.  Other than that legally we can look forward to playing an emulator with good old maps/new content or a feel good successor.  Is that about it in a nutshell?  Either way I am supporting all efforts   ;D

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #137 on: March 09, 2013, 05:28:08 PM »
Again, people are making HUGE assumptions and completely missing the point.

Nobody is retconning anything. We need server software as a first step. We're not "pulling out" existing content, because we don't have it to begin with. Any content work that is done after the software exists will have to be done no matter what.

The whole point is to create software that doesn't infringe on the IP, so that it can be distributed and people can take it and build whatever they want on top of it. Possibly including re-creating the COH content (which would of course be infringement). Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's a lot harder to put it back in. But we need to be able to get to that point without interference in order for it to be successful.

Do I expect it will prevent NCSoft from sending a Cease & Desist letter? No, probably not, at least if they can figure out where to send it. Corporate lawyers are dicks and they'll probably send one to anyone even if they don't have a valid claim, expecting them to fold. However that's not the point. The point is to put the programming teams in a legally defensible position so that if it does come to a legal battle, hopefully the community can be rallied and win, maybe even giving them a black eye in the process if interesting internal documents can be subpoenad during discovery.

Because the software itself will be 100% kosher, and that's the biggest piece of the puzzle that the community is missing.

Ok, so you're saying that someone could theoretically use the server software that is being created to run a CoH server, even if they end up doing it on a local network or something? How easy/difficult will that be? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what data was stored where. I have 4.3ish GB of CoH data on my machine. What's in that data? Maps, character models, animations? Or just references to the copies of those things that were on the CoH server and now probably no longer exist?
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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2013, 11:23:56 PM »
Ok, so you're saying that someone could theoretically use the server software that is being created to run a CoH server, even if they end up doing it on a local network or something? How easy/difficult will that be? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what data was stored where. I have 4.3ish  GB of CoH data on my machine. What's in that data? Maps, character models, animations? Or just references to the copies of those things that were on the CoH server and now probably no longer exist?
The data hosted on the client is the UI, maps, character models, sounds, visual effects and animations. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) that's all it is. The entire game logic, combat engine, and all story/mission data was hosted on the server, so everything but the interface and audiovisual elements have to be created from scratch. This includes all combat and AI logic, missions, story arcs, etcetera. As i said before i'm impressed at the SEGS progress so far, it's really remarkable, but it's going to take a lot more to produce an actual playable game, and there's no reason to exactly reproduce the combat system and values that were used in Issue 3 instead of using the more balanced values of Issue 23/24. Although some aspects may require tweaking since some mechanics are harder to leverage without UI elements to provide feedback.

When writing the combat engine i would suggest two changes from the CoH enhancement system offhand: implementing a more gradual version of diminishing returns since the Issue 3 client doesn't support the Invention system and setting all enhancements to work like IOs so that their values are determined by enhancement level and unaffected by character level.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

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Re: Help out SEGS
« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2013, 11:35:41 PM »
Actually that is not the case with the version of CoH that SEGS is working with, and that is entirely a deliberate choice.  I'm not sure when the change occurred, somewhere in the teens, I think, but certainly in the I6-I8 range that SEGS is working with, EVERYTHING was on your client on your machine, and the only thing that the server did was to tell you where you, the NPCs, and the other PCs were on your map.  ALL THE REST of the stuff--from missions to dialogue--was in the client.  This is why you could run it literally over 24b landlines (and I did).
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