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[NoName]

I saw the question posted earlier and I spent a few days thinking about it. I think what was great about City of Heroes teaming and especially Early City of Heroes was that anyone could join. You never had gear checks or elitists and the drop system meant no one ever fought over items. You had runs of 200+ people all done in chat. Never had to deal with being left out because you didn't use Ventrilo, Mumble, Raidcall or the flavor of the week mic program. You had chat channels that covered every zone and you had a friends list that covered the entire game universe. It was just a simpler time. Not to rewrite history of course you had your unicorns, your chat issues and the mentally ill that made server drama but when you focus on the teaming and getting runs done, it was a good system for all. It changed a little for me after issue 9 because the STF was hard to where people started getting left out but I think they fixed some of those issues going forward.

I'm playing Star Wars right now and to me it looks like they have been going to the CoH Handbook for some of their designs. The new world they have feels like a cross between Faultline and RWZ.

As for the topic, I hope the Google package gets sent off soon. Be nice to see if something could happen out of it. After the rl stuff involving the team is taken care of of course.

[Segev]

Hm. The "there was no chat program of the week" issue... that's something that was a product of the time, and not a property of CoH, right?

Or am I wrong here?

[NoName]

I think those programs were just starting up such as teamspeak and the like but the point was there was no segregation as far as that. I never once was forced, told or asked to join a mic room to do any type of task force. Which is something considering the later TFs were 16-24 people that needed to be coordinated. In other games I play you get more than 4 people together you HAVE to join a mic room because it's SO difficult and SO hard for people to stand in spot A or move to spot B and stop attacking when X changed color to Y. I guess everything in CoH just seemed more natural and easy but if you think about there were some things that could rival some of these "hardcore" raids nowadays. Remember the first time doing the last mission of the LRSF? It's like they say you don't know what you got until it's gone and I think I was spoiled by the great CoH community that made a lot of things possible that just wouldn't happen in other games.

[Ampithere]

Hm. The "there was no chat program of the week" issue... that's something that was a product of the time, and not a property of CoH, right?

Or am I wrong here?

I seem to recall several mic chat programs being popular in other games at the time, but I was quite young and didn't use any of them. My memory might be fuzzy. In any event, they eventually became popular in other games that came out around the time of CoH and are now required by guilds in most games. All of which is extremely irritating to me because I much prefer to type. Most of the time I don't even have my sound on while I play games. I'm normally sitting on my couch watching tv. The last thing I want is to have to try and listen to 28 people all telling me what I should attack.

[Sleepy Wonder]

I seem to recall several mic chat programs being popular in other games at the time, but I was quite young and didn't use any of them. My memory might be fuzzy. In any event, they eventually became popular in other games that came out around the time of CoH and are now required by guilds in most games. All of which is extremely irritating to me because I much prefer to type. Most of the time I don't even have my sound on while I play games. I'm normally sitting on my couch watching tv. The last thing I want is to have to try and listen to 28 people all telling me what I should attack.

Yeah, it really detracts from the overall experience, whether its built in or used on the side. You can't really listen to music, or the game's environmental sound/music/audio during such a session on VOIP.

If you're deaf, or hard of hearing, then forget it.

There are many other issues surrounding the use of voice chat in MMO's that I won't get into, but suffice to say, half of your anonymity is gone simply by using it. Then you have the people who like to talk and talk and talk about nothing really related to whats going on (happens to me all the time in games like L4D, which is very distracting on some occasions. It's much better with friends).

I really don't think MMO's should incorporate voice chat, since there are already tools out there for doing so that would far exceed the quality you'd find in-game, which would also consume more resources for the game's publisher given the need for all of the extra bandwidth.

VOIP in shooters makes much more sense given the gameplay and resource consumption needs, but I've never seen a true need for it in MMO's by default. At least not if the game is designed properly. If you absolutely have to resort to using VOIP for speed communication then something's wrong with the game. I've seen most of the difficult content in CoH done just fine without it.

[Lucretia MacEvil]

I used voice chat only once while playing CoH.  I found that I couldn't keep track of who said what, which voice went with which character.  Half the time, I ended up tuning them out because trying to listen was too confusing (fortunately, I had some idea what we were supposed to do).

Typing ftw!

[0nehanklap]

VOIP chat programs are great... but only when you are teaming with friends you already know:  The voices are 1- limited in number   2-already familiar to you  3- not prone to rage-slapping my ears (or the ears of my nearby kids) with tirades of profanity every time someone  fails to measure up to their standards or heal them on time.  I absolutely will not VOIP on a pug and have dropped from SGs who required it.

EDIT: Sorry - fell for the derail, but it touched a nerve.

[Joshex]

is V.V. back in action yet?

[Illusionss]

I used voice chat only once while playing CoH.  I found that I couldn't keep track of who said what, which voice went with which character.  Half the time, I ended up tuning them out because trying to listen was too confusing (fortunately, I had some idea what we were supposed to do).

Typing ftw!

What was worse were people who were uneasy with silence, and would just talk and talk and talk, saying nothing really. I am not logged into my main entertainment to endure stream-of-consciousness nattering from people I dont even like in the first place; so immersion-breaking and distracting. I was involved in a SG for about three years which brought in some new members who loved it and it quickly became a SG requirement. [If you didnt have it, you participated in task forces and teams in complete "silence" because people were too lazy to type. No voice chat? You were not worth bothering with.]

I left the group shortly afterward. And I was actually a founding member.... nope, not a fan of the concept.

[Segev]

Hrm. So, then, there's really nothing a modern MMO can do about the voice chat thing; people will insist on it or not as they see fit, and will use third-party services if there isn't one with the game (or, from my experience with SC2, even if there is if they think it "sucks").

[Kistulot]

(or, from my experience with SC2, even if there is if they think it "sucks").

Depending on hardware, software, connections, and any other number of factors, it could for them. Putting it in quotation marks is a little  :-\ since by nature thinking it isn't good is an opinion.

For my two cents I only ever voice chat with friends. I hate my voice and tend to find it a bit more faff than its worth even with them at times. It's nearly impossible not to cut someone off, especially if there are connection speed variations.

[TimtheEnchanter]

I can't really say one way or the other about voice chat. It all depends on what group you're in.

One guild in SWG actually had voice chat going on, and in-game RP over text at the same time. And what were we doing in voice while that was going on? Heckling ourselves MST3K-style. It was hilarious.

If you're having issues with the voice chat in your group, it's probably time to find a different group.

[chasearcanum]

If you're deaf, or hard of hearing, then forget it.

I was part of a "accessible gaming" working group for a while, and it led to some fascinating threads on many different aspects of gaming.

Many early online gaming MMO's had a very large (proportionally-speaking) deaf community.  Few, if any, of them used audio for critical gameplay cues- virtually all could be played with the audio disabled entirely.  With text chat as the only form of communication, they felt incredibly empowered-- essentially on par socially with everyone else in the game- possibly the first time they've felt that way when dealing with anyone except other deaf people.  They held positions as guild leaders, merchants, community leaders, raid leaders, etc-- all without most players even knowing they were deaf.   It was incredibly empowering.

The proliferation of 3rd party voice chat destroyed much of that.  As people realized the advantages that voice brought to raids, the deaf raid commander often stepped back-- not just from leading raids, but participating altogether, rather than be dependent on someone else typing in transcripts of commands in a timely manner.  I recall one deaf player commenting how his gut clenched at the mere word "Vent" because he felt he had to either "out" his disability and inconvenience others or discreetly nod out of the group.   Some gameplay elements (basic pve, merchant, roleplay, etc) were still playable, but one observer noted that the whole experience caused many deaf players to just team with other deaf players or close friends, essentially closing themselves off from the community that once seemed so open to them.

Granted, much of that can also be said about other disabilities. The trend toward "visceral" gameplay- more rapid clicks and movement to make gameplay feel more "urgent"- really impacted those with limited motor abilities(control issues, amputations, musculoskeletal, etc) .  The accessibility community had made several hundred accessibility-friendly "macros" in (pre-NGE)SWG that could enabled amazing depth of gameplay for rather limited manual input....  The trend toward "more clicks=more action" and anti-botting design changes did much to derail this.

[JaguarX]

Sounds like the usual "hey this is cool feature and me and my friends like it so now it's requirment to play with us" thing.

I guess some people forget that raids were just as easy and still can be easily completed without the chat. 90% of the time that voice chat hinders the plan because you always have one or two people chattering while the leader is going over the plan, then the leader get mad, snaps at the offender they snap back, then it's arguement for another 15-30 mins before someone gets kicked and back on subject which by then most of the team either dozed off or afk. And this is assuming that everyone understand what is being said as it seems some people think the only way to speak is bark orders and yell and curse.

VOice chat can be a useful tool, but my experience with it, it's been nothing but a hinderance and buzz kill. Looking at people's chat is enough then having to actually listen to them bitch gripe moan groan about some other player that havent logged in years gets a little annoying and that is when I hit the mute button or if it's a case that some way some how there is no way, havent ran into this situation, where there is no doing it without voice chat, then I would just kindly leave and go play with the deaf kids where text is good enough for them and have more fun than I ever could.

[P51mus]

Sounds like the usual "hey this is cool feature and me and my friends like it so now it's requirment to play with us" thing.

I guess some people forget that raids were just as easy and still can be easily completed without the chat. 90% of the time that voice chat hinders the plan because you always have one or two people chattering while the leader is going over the plan, then the leader get mad, snaps at the offender they snap back, then it's arguement for another 15-30 mins before someone gets kicked and back on subject which by then most of the team either dozed off or afk. And this is assuming that everyone understand what is being said as it seems some people think the only way to speak is bark orders and yell and curse.

VOice chat can be a useful tool, but my experience with it, it's been nothing but a hinderance and buzz kill. Looking at people's chat is enough then having to actually listen to them bitch gripe moan groan about some other player that havent logged in years gets a little annoying and that is when I hit the mute button or if it's a case that some way some how there is no way, havent ran into this situation, where there is no doing it without voice chat, then I would just kindly leave and go play with the deaf kids where text is good enough for them and have more fun than I ever could.

At the risk of derailing this thread further....

Voice chat is a perfectly fine tool when used properly, and was extremely useful when I was in a WoW guild running hard mode raid bosses.  A raid leader being able to give commands and still be able to control their character is invaluable.  Of course, as mentioned, it requires proper discipline from the rest of the raid.

That said, public dungeon running and normal fights were perfectly fine with text.  And maybe a good macro or two.

[Tanklet]

At the risk of derailing this thread further....

Voice chat is a perfectly fine tool when used properly, and was extremely useful when I was in a WoW guild running hard mode raid bosses.  A raid leader being able to give commands and still be able to control their character is invaluable.  Of course, as mentioned, it requires proper discipline from the rest of the raid.

That said, public dungeon running and normal fights were perfectly fine with text.  And maybe a good macro or two.

I'm pretty sure 'further' was some time ago ... 'sides, doesn't look like there have been any updates on the original topic at all.

[Safehouse]

I'm pretty sure 'further' was some time ago ... 'sides, doesn't look like there have been any updates on the original topic at all.

Lol "further" is so far back we'd need a telescope to find it!

[JaguarX]

Dont worry just keeping the thread alive until the next update. That way it wont have to be zombified.  :)

[Safehouse]

And being subscribed to it in the meantime is actually quite amusing. Admittedly, I anxiously await an answer from Google, but I might as well take enjoyment in the delightfully derailed train

[HEATSTROKE]

are we any closer to sending something into Google ??