Author Topic: Legal push for the release of the IP  (Read 24680 times)

Aggelakis

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2013, 12:43:07 AM »
The problem with analogies that don't fit too well with reality is that... well... they don't fit to well with reality. There is no such thing as a place where you get to rent and play with Lego's and not own them. And if there were, it'd be very silly since you can buy Lego's really cheap. I, along with others here, understand the analogy, but it was poorly made.
The problem with analogies is... you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works pretty much perfectly.
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houtex

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2013, 02:05:36 AM »
Folks, I had a pretty rough, long day, so I apologize... as I read somewhere, the analogy here is "bra's off."  Not that I wear one, the concept of "I am DONE being all thinky and handsome and stuff.  I'm chillin' out for now."

I'll get that whole legalease thing put together on this for ya Pulsar.  I would like very much to show my homework, as it seems it might be somewhat important... and maybe, just maybe, there's a wedge.

Or not.  I don't have the funds to find out anyway, as it happens...

/I ask for patience, some days really really suck.  Thanks. :)
//I blame Reddit and my own weird brain for the bra analogy...

Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2013, 02:25:31 AM »
The problem with analogies is... you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works pretty much perfectly.

I never think too hard. Perhaps you are not thinking hard enough if you think Rent-a-Lego Centre is a perfect analogy. We have brains for a reason, you know.

The point in using an analogy is to compare two or more things, one being simpler or easier to understand or almost as a proverbial canvas to "paint" or demonstrate the workings of a situation. The reason they are used is because when they are used correctly, they work. If your analogy is based in something in which it's existence is difficult to accept, it's a poor analogy. Hence, the LegoLand Colored Play-Block Emporium is a poor analogy.

Analogy is a great tool not only for debate, but also teaching. It's second, in my opinion, only to the Socratic Method. If you are going to try to prove a point, don't make up some non-existent stand to place it on. It's just silly.

Hey... I put the "Anal" in Analogy.  ;)
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Ironbull

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2013, 02:26:09 AM »
Could we make a push for Cruel and Unusual punishment?  Their stocks were not doing well so they shut down CoH.  That was cruel punishment.  Not to sell the IP is unusual punishment.  That's a no no.

Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2013, 02:29:57 AM »
...as I read somewhere, the analogy here is "bra's off."

I like where you are going with this.

Quote
//I blame Reddit and my own weird brain for the bra analogy...

Would that be reddit.com/r/gonewild?


Quote
I'll get that whole legalease thing put together on this for ya Pulsar.
Quote
/I ask for patience, some days really really suck.  Thanks. :)

Nah, Hou, it's all good. ;)
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2013, 02:41:49 AM »
The problem with analogies is... you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works pretty much perfectly.

'Technically' if you wanted to make the analogy more precise... and this is something I've always used to describe how ridiculous Sony's DRM policy was at one point in time. Referring specifically to needing to buy a copy of an mp3 for each device you wanted to play it in. Would we find it ridiculous if every-time we paid for a hammer, we could only use it to build that doghouse, and then have to pay for it again if we decided we wanted to build a deck? Of course that's ludicrous, but that's exactly what Sony was pushing. If there were a way to put a limit on our use of non-electronic material items, you can be sure that hammers would come with a licensing agreement.

Same goes for legos. It'd be hard to enforce, but a company could conceivably put a license agreement on ANYTHING, stating you can only use it for X number of years. And if you get caught with it after that date, you're in big doodoo.

What's really scary is, if nanotech could ever be made efficiently and cheap enough, this could actually become possible. Imagine every hammer having a tiny RF chip that doubles as a motion sensor. And if it gets swung into something after a certain date, it starts emitting a wi-fi signal to notify the business of a license violation.

JaguarX

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2013, 05:52:55 AM »
precautions, must make sure to study the case myself and get second opinions from other legal professionals.

makes perfect sense. Carry on then.

Kurrent

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2013, 05:14:31 PM »
To try and help clarify:

Actually, if you read the EULA, they do specifically own everything about our characters. Right down to any stories we put in the "info" screen.

This, folks, is the most incorrect answer.  YOU own the characters.  As well as any AE mission you make.  What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so.

1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.

2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game.  That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too.  AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.

You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make.  You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it. 

Read through Title 17, Chapter 2 and you'll find that copyright ownership (which you get on your characters automatically when you create them, per other sections of Title 17) cannot be transferred by means other than a written contract signed by both parties.

A paper contract, that is, not a click-through agreement. Implied consent (they can't PROVE that it was you who clicked the button) is not enough to transfer ownership, and I don't believe it would stand up in court. Written contracts require certain components legally, and EULAs are missing most of them.

Now, the nonexclusive license for NCSoft to *use* your characters if they want to is probably valid, but they can't stop *you* from using them, or from licensing their use to others.

Thing about EULAs is that you can't take them at face value. Lawyers can and will put anything they want in there -- whether it's legal or not -- along with an "if certain parts of this agreement are found to be unenforceable, the rest of it still applies" clause. It's the legal equivalent of throwing a bucket full of pancakes at the wall and seeing what sticks.


Those are the most salient points as I see them, as an author and a songwriter who holds registered copyright on some of her work.

Copyright law is a mess.  What U.S. Copyright law recognizes is that anything an artist or writer creates is covered by copyright immediately, whether that artist files for a copyright or not.  In the event of a copyright breach, it is up to the author to prove that an alleged breach occurred, which is why most artists and authors will either formally obtain a copyright or at the least maintain notes, drawings, something that can be dated to prove they came up with a particular work first.

In the cases of our characters, the character concepts in general as well as the backstorys belong to us; NCSoft has no rights to any of them as long we do not include any information that IS specifically covered in the EULA, which is anything to do with Paragon City, Rogue Isles, Statesman, Dream Doctor, other signature characters or any other material included in game or in publication via NCSoft.  I can write a story about my character Ganymede, who gained the power to manipulate dark energy after an encounter with a life-stealing alien who crash-landed on Earth, and be perfectly within my rights as an author.  However, I am not legally allowed to refer to her as a Warshade, call the life-stealing alien a Nictus or describe her powers as Umbral Blasts or Umbral Auras.  Ganymede, her backstory, her powers and personality and her future are mine.  The specific interpretation of Ganymede the Warshade, her powers in CoH, the exact likeness of her character and costume pieces and the animations of her powers belong to NCSoft.

Hope that helps.  This thread has gotten testy at times.  We are all on the same side here, guys and gals.  We miss our world and our community, and taking frustration out on each other isn't going to help.  I still remain hopeful, so much so that I keep looking for a blue power ring to fly through my window any moment.  If only...

Pinnacle Blue

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2013, 05:33:14 PM »
Could we make a push for Cruel and Unusual punishment?  Their stocks were not doing well so they shut down CoH.  That was cruel punishment.  Not to sell the IP is unusual punishment.  That's a no no.

No.  Also, you need to look up "cruel and unusual punishment" in its original context.
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Pinnacle Blue

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2013, 05:35:05 PM »
As much as I am heartened by the very existence of this thread, I think we'd have a better chance of pursuing a "fraud" avenue-- they knew they were going to do this, but continued to sell us things and keep us lured with the promise of new things on the horizon.  A dick move, yes, but I'm still trying to find out if it's an actionable dick move.
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Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2013, 05:37:27 PM »

In the cases of our characters, the character concepts in general as well as the backstorys belong to us; NCSoft has no rights to any of them as long we do not include any information that IS specifically covered in the EULA, which is anything to do with Paragon City, Rogue Isles, Statesman, Dream Doctor, other signature characters or any other material included in game or in publication via NCSoft.

Now, you may very well be right in the long run, but not as far as NCSoft and the the game's EULA are concerned. According to them, once you save information on their severs, they have the right to do whatever they want with it (delete it, generic it, ban it, use in it posters, commercials, movies, shows, or even incorporate it into the game). We also have similar rights to do with it as we please. They can't stop us and we can't stop them. We created it, but that is where the difference stops. Both NCSoft and the creator of a character have equal rights to it.

Again, this is all according to the EULA. The question of whether that is enforceable by law is a fair question. I suppose the only time this would really matter is if one was to write a story via movie, comic, novel, etc, and if it were to become popular, then there could possibly be a conflict if NCSoft were to do the same.
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Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2013, 05:43:13 PM »
As much as I am heartened by the very existence of this thread, I think we'd have a better chance of pursuing a "fraud" avenue-- they knew they were going to do this, but continued to sell us things and keep us lured with the promise of new things on the horizon.  A dick move, yes, but I'm still trying to find out if it's an actionable dick move.

Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision. Paragon Studios was responsible for the game in nearly all aspects including telling us about new content. The moment they were informed that the game was shutting down, they stopped taking money and even gave a bunch back. Even for unused Paragon Points, while still letting those with the points keep them. The game continued to run for 3 months and those who were VIP members retained the membership for free. I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months. NCSoft Korea chose to close the game, not Paragon, and they didn't have anything to do with development.
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Pinnacle Blue

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2013, 05:47:19 PM »
Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision. Paragon Studios was responsible for the game in nearly all aspects including telling us about new content. The moment they were informed that the game was shutting down, they stopped taking money and even gave a bunch back. Even for unused Paragon Points, while still letting those with the points keep them. The game continued to run for 3 months and those who were VIP members retained the membership for free. I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months. NCSoft Korea chose to close the game, not Paragon, and they didn't have anything to do with development.

This is not in question, at all, even a little bit.  Everyone knows NCSoft is responsible.  I guess I should have been clearer-- I believe NCSoft knew they were going to shut the game down while encouraging its development.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2013, 05:50:36 PM »
Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision.
Quite unlikely. Multi-national businesses do not operate in "snap" fashion. Not to mention NCsoft was unhappy with Paragon and Paragon was unhappy with NCsoft - enough that Paragon attempted to buy itself out a year ago or so. NCsoft probably put "close Paragon" on its docket right about then.
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Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2013, 05:55:54 PM »
This is not in question, at all, even a little bit.  Everyone knows NCSoft is responsible.  I guess I should have been clearer-- I believe NCSoft knew they were going to shut the game down while encouraging its development.

Quit possible, but not easily proven. However, as the history of the game shows, NCSoft (K) did very little to encourage anything considering our beloved city for the last few years.

I mean, what should they have done? Put out a press release in April saying "We are considering closing City of Heroes. If it happens, it will be in about 8 or 9 months. We will be watching the game to see how well it does until then." Well, then the game would have surly deflated and they probably would have closed the doors even earlier. Don't get me wrong. I think the way they did it sucked. Frankly, I think the fact that game was closed at all sucks. I just think that considering their actions illegal, as fraud, or as IP theft is just frivolous and we should be focusing on TF:HM, TPP, or H&V. I just don't think we have any legal recourse against NCSoft that would be of any use.
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Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2013, 05:58:31 PM »
Quite unlikely. Multi-national businesses do not operate in "snap" fashion. Not to mention NCsoft was unhappy with Paragon and Paragon was unhappy with NCsoft - enough that Paragon attempted to buy itself out a year ago or so. NCsoft probably put "close Paragon" on its docket right about then.

It happened rather abruptly from what players and even the devs can tell. We can speculate that it was a decision made a long time ago, and maybe even be right, but we have no proof of it. Which is why I said "from what can be told" and not "it's 100% certain."
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Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Aggelakis

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2013, 06:04:29 PM »
I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months.
Oh, and just to stave this rumor off: you heard wrong. They didn't have the capability of upgrading freebs to VIP. Both Zwilly before he left and Hit Streak after he took over said it repeatedly.
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Kurrent

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2013, 06:09:15 PM »
Now, you may very well be right in the long run, but not as far as NCSoft and the the game's EULA are concerned. According to them, once you save information on their severs, they have the right to do whatever they want with it (delete it, generic it, ban it, use in it posters, commercials, movies, shows, or even incorporate it into the game). We also have similar rights to do with it as we please. They can't stop us and we can't stop them. We created it, but that is where the difference stops. Both NCSoft and the creator of a character have equal rights to it.

Again, this is all according to the EULA. The question of whether that is enforceable by law is a fair question. I suppose the only time this would really matter is if one was to write a story via movie, comic, novel, etc, and if it were to become popular, then there could possibly be a conflict if NCSoft were to do the same.

I'm a bit confused here, and I think you might be misreading some of what I was saying. 

The EULA clearly does state the in-game bits and pieces belong to NCSoft, including the CoH-specific power names, costume pieces, titles, trademarks, and appearance as they are described in game.  They certainly can and most likely will try to prosecute someone who, say, tries to publish a comic book about one of his/her CoH characters with the same powers, appearance, costume pieces, etc., etc. as it existed inside CoH.  That is a violation of the EULA we agreed to, regardless of whether or not we chose the various options and put them together.  We gave away the future rights to those very specific objects and exactly how they were assembled using those specific objects.

However, if we take the same character concept and remove the CoH-specific pieces, going back to what we first thought of as an idea for a character, NCSoft has no right or claim to that.  We can create a different version of that previously-mentioned character with the same concept, similar appearance, similar powers while avoiding any trademarked or copyrighted terms or properties.  This version of the character NCSoft can't touch, and they have no right to use or claim it as long as we haven't used or duplicated anything that is legally theirs.  They might attempt to claim copyright infringement if the two versions are extremely similar, but as long as our reworked versions of those characters are significantly different (which can be a fine line) and avoid using any of NCSoft's property, NCSoft will lose that case every single time. 

Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2013, 06:10:08 PM »
Oh, and just to stave this rumor off: you heard wrong. They didn't have the capability of upgrading freebs to VIP. Both Zwilly before he left and Hit Streak after he took over said it repeatedly.

Well, it wasn't a rumor then. It was a flat out lie. I was told this by some people in game that, according to them, had messaged the devs saying that their payment had lapsed at the most inopportune time and they were unable to re-upgrade to VIP, so the devs went ahead and did it.

However, as I have witnessed in this world, all things are possible. While you may be right, you may also be wrong. I would assume that the devs would not admit to this power for fear of a flood of messages to do so.

Edit: edited for clarity
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 06:19:42 PM by Blue Pulsar »
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Blue Pulsar

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Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2013, 06:18:29 PM »
I'm a bit confused here, and I think you might be misreading some of what I was saying.

What I am saying is essentially this: Once we put information on their servers, they have all the rights to it that we have. Let's say I make a super generic character with a costume similar to what you can see in a hundred random comics, and I make a super generic story with no references to any CoH lore, and let's say I give that character Super Strength and Invulnerability. Now, I, as the creator, can port concept to any medium I chose as long as I don't use images specifically from CoX. I have that right. However, NCSoft also has the right to take the name and likeness of that character and use it anywhere they want. I will say this: The one thing we can do that they cannot is transfer the rights they have to another entity. We can (as long as we use no copyrighted material belonging to NCSoft).

I AM NOT saying that we have no rights to it, I am only saying that NCSoft has nearly all the same rights to it.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom