Legal push for the release of the IP

[Blue Pulsar]

In addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, You further agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless NCsoft with respect to any claim by third-parties that any such license to any such IP right(s) misappropriates, violates or infringes any third-party IP right or other proprietary right.

Translated from legalese: You can't sue NCsoft for what they do with those IP rights, either.  If somehow NCsoft gets in legal trouble for using IPs you've submitted to the game, they can ask you to foot the legal bills.

I agree with most of what you said. The last part was pretty far off. No where does it say that a customer of NCSoft is financially liable for legal costs in the case of an IP rights case. And, IPs are not submitted by us to the game or NCSoft. The section you were quoting simply reinforces their own ownership of the game's IP (along with everything we create on their servers). The very thing we are trying to get them to sell to another company.

[JaguarX]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion, except to provide this for reference to anyone who's curious:

EULA as of Issue 21

very important stuff to keep in mind there.

[houtex]

Actually, if you read the EULA, they do specifically own everything about our characters. Right down to any stories we put in the "info" screen.

This, folks, is the most incorrect answer.  YOU own the characters.  As well as any AE mission you make.  What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so.  Say, they wanted Brawling Humiliator to be part of the Freedom Phalanx.  I can't say anything contrary, nor expect any payment.  I might can expect a dialog about their not changing his looks, powers, or story.  But that's about it.

This was gone round and round in the old CoH forums, with me at the head... it's like this:

1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.

2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game.  That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too.  AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.

You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make.  You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it. 

Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego.  You can get any set you like.  You can put them together however you like, and even combine Lego sets.  But you CANNOT sell the Lego, and Lego could take them back anytime it wishes.  It is up to YOU to write down how to put together the "Amazingness Thingy" for your posterity.  They have no legal obligation to make the Lego available anymore if they decide to pull all Lego from all people. 

In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego.   And that's how it is with CoH. 

---

The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO.  You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.

The legality of whether you can sue for CoH to be able to SEE and USE your IP?  The right lawyer, expensively paid, might just pull that off, but you'd spend so much doing it... I think I'd just ride a motorcycle.  But hey, I'd appreciate it if you'd go on and do that for us all.
 
---
 
I read every single word of the latest EULA, and have copies locally, and correctly interpreted and made notes.  Legalese is such a headache.  But that's the deal.  Y'all have fun with it.

[JaguarX]

In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego.   And that's how it is with CoH. 

---

The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO.  You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.

This.


I dont think it can be said much better than this.

[McCreed]

The Lego analogy above can only be taken so far.  When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks.  The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego.  Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back."  You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever.  You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.

Your CoH characters are not yours forever.  You don't own any part of them.  Not the pieces, not the whole.  You were just renting the blocks.  As a condition to the rental, you agreed that NCSoft could stop renting to you at any time, in its sole and absolute discretion.  (Go through the EULA linked on the prior page and count the occurrences of the term "sole and absolute discretion".  That oughta make an impression on anyone who still thinks they were given more than a temporary key to Paragon City.)

[JaguarX]

This is why I always read those things before diving head first into it. That way I know what they can do and I know what I'm getting into, even if it would be very unlikely that they will ue the full extent of the EULA, still prep the worse as they have that option is what I do, and or did before spending a single penny on subscription.

[Knight Light]

Nah, screw legalese, I'm not saying lets pony up for a lawsuit but there's a way to get CoH back out there somewhere, we just haven't thought of it yet.

NCSoft may legally own City of Heroes but it belongs to the people of Paragon City.

[McCreed]

I'm sure this has been talked to death in other threads, but I would try to find this much comfort in their refusal to sell: there's always a slim chance that they don't want to let it go because they haven't completely given up on the possibility of a CoH2 project.

[JaguarX]

I'm sure this has been talked to death in other threads, but I would try to find this much comfort in their refusal to sell: there's always a slim chance that they don't want to let it go because they haven't completely given up on the possibility of a CoH2 project.

Possible.
Hey they might even have plans, and just havent told us, or we been a pain in butt that they rather not tell us anything, to use the IP in other ways, either in other games, sequel, new Superhero game, app., clothes, comics, etc. No telling.

Or maybe they are so attached to the IP emotionally that they cant bear to let it go and want it all for themselves forever and ever and ever.

[Colette]

"...you missed the part where he said we should sue the pants off of NCSoft for the IP. She was referring to any playerbase that would (try to) cause a truckload of legal issues for a company. Such an action by a broad group of people would actually cause potential buyers of the IP to back away slowly from any sale for fear of the same thing happening to them."

Saw it, and I do grant your point.

My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?

:...it would seem that you have no problem with the message, "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."

False attribution and straw man. My message is, "Come buy our game, accept our money, and follow the Golden Rule -- treat your customers as you would want to be treated, because we've had our fill of douchebags." I don't want any company to buy CoH if they don't understand enlightened self interest. We'd be better off waiting for our crackers to finish and opening up our pirate server. Given "Icon," that looks like what'll happen anyway.

Folks, this thread is a blind alley. We have neither legal recourse against NCSoft nor the means to pursue it. Let's move on.

[Triplash]

My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?

I just want to mention something for the sake of clarity: my post earlier wasn't directed to you specifically or anything. I was just responding to the phrase, and yours happened to be the post I quoted. When I was rereading it though, I realized it might have come across like I was arguing with you for some reason. Sorry if it sounded that way. I wasn't, I promise

[Blue Pulsar]

This, folks, is the most incorrect answer.  YOU own the characters.  As well as any AE mission you make. 

Pop a yellow, bro. You missed my point. I never said we didn't own the characters. What I did say is they DID own the characters. At best it's a dual ownership. They have unlimited rights to use any aspect of your character without payment or your discretion as you stated. What do you think that means? I have legal rights to use something at any given time without needing permission, and have full power over it (to delete it, shut it down, "generic" it, etc), then I own it. NCSoft had 10 times the power over your character than you did. And they could (and did) use that power whenever they wanted.

It's like your dad handed you the keys to a car and said "It's all yours son." But then later he took it back. You never really owned it. Now you can go buy a car just like it and drive it the same way with the same gas and do the same things with it, but the old car? You never owned it.

You can rewrite any stories or draw and publish your characters, but in the game NCSoft owned your toons.

[Blue Pulsar]

My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?

I understand you, Colette. I was just trying to say that the poster you were quoting was not saying that the CoX playerbase were obnoxious. They were saying that if we did such a thing as the OP was suggesting would possibly paint us as obnoxious.

:...it would seem that you have no problem with the message, "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."

False attribution and straw man. My message is, "Come buy our game, accept our money, and follow the Golden Rule -- treat your customers as you would want to be treated, because we've had our fill of douchebags." I don't want any company to buy CoH if they don't understand enlightened self interest.

Straw man? hah! All I said was "it would seem as thought you have no problem with" the message, not that it was what you were saying. And not false at all. Exaggeration maybe. Hyperbole at worst. There really isn't much difference between the way you put it and the way I put it. They are the exact same message... You just left off the ultimatum. Both mine and yours could be shortened to "Buy our game, make money, follow this rule." Mine just had an "or else" that yours implied.

Don't get me wrong, C. I agree with you. I don't want a s#!t company to run the game either. And I am proud of the CoX community being the best ever. Always helping like heroes should. Even us redsiders did. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just felt you misunderstood the point Lucrecia was trying to make. I really don't want us all to become so enraged with NCSoft that we scare off a new company. Also, I've read a lot of your posts and you're a positive voice here, IMO. Really don't want to see that change either.

[Colette]

Heya Pulse, Trip. Nah nah, s'good. Didn't mean to sound confrontational. I'm a bit rigid sometimes.

I'm still gonna crank out anti-NCSoft memes in the hopes that continued pressure over.. well, several years if necessary, will convince them to sell the IP. I really don't see that what we're doing to NCSoft, when seen in the light of fairness and consumer activism, will scare away the kind of buyer we all want. We're in the right.

But given we're starting to see results from our programmers ( :: hugs the Icon program! :: ) I have a lot more faith that we'll revive CoH ourselves than that anyone will buy it. I'll of course still be there with postage ready for VV's next effort.

Back on topic, I really do wish we had some legal means to pry CoH out of NCSoft's clutches. But I don't see it.

[Lucretia MacEvil]

We haven't been one so far, no. Far from it for the most part (which I'm genuinely proud to say). But to sue them because we're sad over losing our characters? To actually believe that the law would side with us because our hurt feelings are just that important? We'd become an obnoxious playerbase the moment we tried something like that. And any "good will" value we might have gathered up to that point, would be lost through that one action.

To believe you're so important that rules don't apply to you... to think the only thing that matters is getting what you want... that's about as obnoxious as it gets. We can't be that kind of player if we want to use the quality of our playerbase as a point in our favor.

I understand you, Colette. I was just trying to say that the poster you were quoting was not saying that the CoX playerbase were obnoxious. They were saying that if we did such a thing as the OP was suggesting would possibly paint us as obnoxious.

This was pretty much what I meant. 

The CoX playerbase has been absolutely wonderful, but I don't want a potential purchasers to be paranoid about irritating us, so worried to make a mistake after acquisition that no one wants to buy.  Granted, this is an extreme "painting" of the actions suggested by the OP, but it seems unwise to give anyone the opportunity.  If such actions are pursued, I strongly suggest that all care be taken to maintain our heroic image.

Note to self:  Clarity of meaning in forum posts needs work.

[houtex]

The Lego analogy above can only be taken so far.  When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks.  The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego.  Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back."  You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever.  You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.

Your CoH characters are not yours forever.  You don't own any part of them.  Not the pieces, not the whole.  You were just renting the blocks.  As a condition to the rental, you agreed that NCSoft could stop renting to you at any time, in its sole and absolute discretion.  (Go through the EULA linked on the prior page and count the occurrences of the term "sole and absolute discretion".  That oughta make an impression on anyone who still thinks they were given more than a temporary key to Paragon City.)

From my post: "Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego. "  Abstract, not actual.  I know they can't take the Lego away.  That's silly.  But the CoH engine is effectively a Lego set for us'ns, and they CAN take that away.

The CoH characters ARE ours forever.  The EULA is highly specific, but because it's freakin' legalese, it's very difficult to correctly read it.  This I get, but I am absolutely telling all of you, seriously, THE CHARACTERS AND AE STUFF YOU MADE ARE YOURS.  Period.  Why anyone thinks otherwise in regards to NCSoft owning them is just... wrong, and/or misinterpreting the EULA.  You don't own the blocks, true, but you own the blueprints to how the blocks go together, and if you made a story about it, that too.

Pop a yellow, bro. You missed my point. I never said we didn't own the characters. What I did say is they DID own the characters. At best it's a dual ownership. They have unlimited rights to use any aspect of your character without payment or your discretion as you stated. What do you think that means? I have legal rights to use something at any given time without needing permission, and have full power over it (to delete it, shut it down, "generic" it, etc), then I own it. NCSoft had 10 times the power over your character than you did. And they could (and did) use that power whenever they wanted.

It's like your dad handed you the keys to a car and said "It's all yours son." But then later he took it back. You never really owned it. Now you can go buy a car just like it and drive it the same way with the same gas and do the same things with it, but the old car? You never owned it.

You can rewrite any stories or draw and publish your characters, but in the game NCSoft owned your toons.

No, you have misread the EULA, and I enjoin you to 'pop a yellow'.  The EULA says exactly the reverse, that you own the character, and they have exclusive rights to use them without paying you.

I hate to say it, y'all, but you guys need to take more time and make notes when reading the EULA.  It's all highly specific, very detailed, and completely spelled out in this regard.

Maybe tomorrow, if I decide to, I may pull every stinking section of the EULA that is involved in this entire debate and point it out.  It's gonna be a helluva long quote box post though... But trust me.  I spent hours pouring over it.  I am not wrong, and I simply wish to not allow the idea that NCSoft owns MY CHARACTERS to perpetuate. 

I made them.  I created them.  They can use them, I said so, but they are damn well mine, and mine alone, and I can even use them to make books or a whole other game if I so choose.  It's all in there.  And there happen to be laws that also say that on our side too.  This is why the EULA is worded the way it is, to allow them to use them in promo materials and not have players say "HAY.  You used Brawling Humiliator in an AD!  PAY ME!!!"  Or such like that.

Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side.  And it's wrong.  And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow. 

Have fun burninatin' me until then.

[Aggelakis]

I made them.  I created them.  They can use them, I said so, but they are damn well mine, and mine alone, and I can even use them to make books or a whole other game if I so choose.  It's all in there.  And there happen to be laws that also say that on our side too.  This is why the EULA is worded the way it is, to allow them to use them in promo materials and not have players say "HAY.  You used Brawling Humiliator in an AD!  PAY ME!!!"  Or such like that.

Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side.  And it's wrong.  And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow. 

It's not technically wrong. They own your character - in the Paragon universe. You cannot go out and write books about Mr. Fabulous fighting the Skulls in Perez Park, followed by calling the Statesman on his phone and taunting a Hydra monster out of Everett Lake. That Mr. Fabulous doesn't belong to you. He belongs to NCsoft.

You can, though, write about Mr. Fabulous completely removed from the Paragon universe, you can draw him and you can put him in games and all that. But you can't do it in the Paragon universe.

[McCreed]

The CoH characters ARE ours forever.  The EULA is highly specific, but because it's freakin' legalese, it's very difficult to correctly read it.  This I get, but I am absolutely telling all of you, seriously, THE CHARACTERS AND AE STUFF YOU MADE ARE YOURS.  Period.  Why anyone thinks otherwise in regards to NCSoft owning them is just... wrong, and/or misinterpreting the EULA.  You don't own the blocks, true, but you own the blueprints to how the blocks go together, and if you made a story about it, that too.

As I said somewhere above, there may be a problem of ambiguity in this discussion as to the intent behind different posters' use of the word "character".  My understanding of the OP's use was that he meant the avatars that existed within the world inside the game.  I don't think he was hoping that some residual right to write stories using his character's backstory and name would somehow translate into the thin end of a wedge between NCSoft and its IP.  I read him as expressing the hope that players somehow retained the right to control the fate of their game avatars and, by some manner of logical extension, the game itself.

BTW, I did understand that your point about Lego was based on some hypothetical licensed Lego as opposed to the real world.  I just thought the limits of a "real world" Lego analogy worked well to underscore the main point at issue which is, you've only been renting pieces to play with (regardless of what manner of unenforceable rights you might claim to have in what you did with those pieces while they were in your possession.)

All that aside, I would be interested in seeing what analysis of the EULA you would offer.  I definitely have no problem understanding legalese, but I have no doubt that you and other members of this community have read the thing much more carefully than I have.

[Codewalker]

You acknowledge, and further agree, that You have no IP right related to any ... Character ID or characteristics related to a Character ID.

Translated from legalese: You do not have the rights to your character names or the characters attached to those names.

The above bit is not legal for them to claim. Read through Title 17, Chapter 2 and you'll find that copyright ownership (which you get on your characters automatically when you create them, per other sections of Title 17) cannot be transferred by means other than a written contract signed by both parties.

A paper contract, that is, not a click-through agreement. Implied consent (they can't PROVE that it was you who clicked the button) is not enough to transfer ownership, and I don't believe it would stand up in court. Written contracts require certain components legally, and EULAs are missing most of them.

Now, the nonexclusive license for NCSoft to *use* your characters if they want to is probably valid, but they can't stop *you* from using them, or from licensing their use to others.

Thing about EULAs is that you can't take them at face value. Lawyers can and will put anything they want in there -- whether it's legal or not -- along with an "if certain parts of this agreement are found to be unenforceable, the rest of it still applies" clause. It's the legal equivalent of throwing a bucket full of pancakes at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Codewalker]

As to the OP, it's highly unlikely that you could *force* anyone to operate a game or give up the server code based on copyright on the characters. You still own that copyright, and NCSoft shutting down the game doesn't prevent you from exercising your right to use them in a different medium.