Author Topic: Legal push for the release of the IP  (Read 24600 times)

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2013, 10:00:39 PM »
"Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."


not my intention, my intention to be honest is to spread the message: "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just if you want to turn off our game please at least have the decency to seriously consider selling the rights to another company, don't sit on the IP or we have every right to complain.."
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

McCreed

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 20
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2013, 10:08:43 PM »

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2013, 10:28:06 PM »
This, folks, is the most incorrect answer.  YOU own the characters.  As well as any AE mission you make.  What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so.  Say, they wanted Brawling Humiliator to be part of the Freedom Phalanx.  I can't say anything contrary, nor expect any payment.  I might can expect a dialog about their not changing his looks, powers, or story.  But that's about it.

This was gone round and round in the old CoH forums, with me at the head... it's like this:

1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.

2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game.  That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too.  AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.

You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make.  You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it. 

Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego.  You can get any set you like.  You can put them together however you like, and even combine Lego sets.  But you CANNOT sell the Lego, and Lego could take them back anytime it wishes.  It is up to YOU to write down how to put together the "Amazingness Thingy" for your posterity.  They have no legal obligation to make the Lego available anymore if they decide to pull all Lego from all people. 

In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego.   And that's how it is with CoH. 

---

The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO.  You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.

The legality of whether you can sue for CoH to be able to SEE and USE your IP?  The right lawyer, expensively paid, might just pull that off, but you'd spend so much doing it... I think I'd just ride a motorcycle.  But hey, I'd appreciate it if you'd go on and do that for us all. :)
 
---
 
I read every single word of the latest EULA, and have copies locally, and correctly interpreted and made notes.  Legalese is such a headache.  But that's the deal.  Y'all have fun with it.

exactly what I percieved from the ToS, see they can't have any ownership of our characters, nor are they allowed to for legal resons, bassically if they owned all our characters and costumes they would open themselves up for multimillion dollar lawsuits every time one of us made a costume resembling a copyrighted character or a character named after a copyrighted charcter.

bassically owning our charcters is a topic no game company's legal advisors will touch.

plus, how do they know that we didn't actually copyright our characters before placing them in CoH?

conflicting copyrights are never a good thing. so they wont touch it.

I can read game legal a bit, part of the courses I took in college were about the legal side of videogames.

As to the OP, it's highly unlikely that you could *force* anyone to operate a game or give up the server code based on copyright on the characters. You still own that copyright, and NCSoft shutting down the game doesn't prevent you from exercising your right to use them in a different medium.

thanks for your input Codewalker, I really respect your words.

that actualy points out something I didn't consider. but does start my semi-madscientist plotting again;

you see I know there were characters people created that were intended to 'fit-in' to paragon and the rougue isles and such, I have a few myself: Arbiter Seth for one on the redside.

you see, the character right is owned by me, and the character's implementation was specifically designed for CoH/V, withot CoH/V I would need to ascertain rights from NCSoft to continue using my character in other mediums because the story would definitely revolve around the CoH/V universe..

if I were to sue for anything, I wouldn't sue for money, maybe just enough to cover court expenses/travels ETC. and of coarse the main Suit; for them to release the rights to another company (based on an auction with a final date determined by the court, if it fails then they would need to release it to the player community and it would be up to us to find a buyer/host)

bassically, I'm just fed up with NCSoft sitting on the IP and laughably making claims that they tried to sell it (really? well, if you were really trying wouldn't you succeed?) then to further insult my intelligence they decide to come flat out and say "we have no plans for further development of CoH/V and we have decided not to sell the Rights to another company." (oh really? well then I feel the IP must be pried from your hoarding monopolistic hands then.)
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2013, 10:37:33 PM »

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »
In section 204(a), which covers the execution of transfers:

That only requires one signature, but 204(b) goes on to add that while not required, a certificate of acknowledgement is much preferred and carries greater weight as to the validity of the transfer.

Not necessarily. Someone else could have clicked the button before you went and created a character on their account. The character is still copyright the person who created it.

Also, in pre-NCSoft launcher versions of the game, the EULA was displayed by cohupdater prior to launching the game. It was quite possible to not use the launcher and run cityofheroes.exe directly without ever agreeing to the EULA.

heh yep, I must admit Sometimes I never read the updated EULA and had someone else log me in (and they proceeded to play on my characters) then I'd log-out to the character select screen and make a new toon.

arbiter seth was actually done just like said there.

Also, Codewalker, I'm turing into a big fan of yours, and thats saying alot. takes alot to get me on board as a fan. carry on with your wonderful reverse engineering work, if you need any help and are still working on it come summer time I might be able to lend a hand I will be trying to finish my degree in computer science which requires alot of programming knowledge (Java is mandatory, and I think maybe I'll study python and C)
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2013, 11:19:30 PM »
However, absent caselaw to the contrary, I think it's a pretty safe bet that a court would view clicking on the "I Agree" button as a meeting of minds constituting a legally binding agreement, including any transfers or release of IP claims contained therein.

It honestly depends on the court. Some have ruled that it's a binding agreement, some have ruled that it's not. So best to look up precedent in your area.

Even if it's a binding agreement, it's usually a weaker one than an actual signed contract and certain provisions may or may not be more likely to be struck from it.

Unless you live in a UCITA state, then you're royally f####d.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2013, 11:42:06 PM »
It honestly depends on the court. Some have ruled that it's a binding agreement, some have ruled that it's not. So best to look up precedent in your area.

Even if it's a binding agreement, it's usually a weaker one than an actual signed contract and certain provisions may or may not be more likely to be struck from it.

Unless you live in a UCITA state, then you're royally f####d.

but if it's not a binding agreement doesnt it work both ways?

Given that charactersi ngame are created technically by using pieces that the game creators made, wouldnt the game creator still have ownership over the pieces, unless a person created their own pieces and inserted it into the game?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2013, 11:57:32 PM »
but if it's not a binding agreement doesnt it work both ways?

Given that charactersi ngame are created technically by using pieces that the game creators made, wouldnt the game creator still have ownership over the pieces, unless a person created their own pieces and inserted it into the game?

nope, this is covered under artistic expression laws, it's no different than a retailer of colored pencils, yeah they own the patent of the pencils but not the works you create with them.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2013, 12:03:48 AM »
nope, this is covered under artistic expression laws, it's no different than a retailer of colored pencils, yeah they own the patent of the pencils but not the works you create with them.

I figured this much.

So then that means we can legally recreate our characters from there in other media since we own them. This which brings me to my next question. Since we still own our characters and can still create them and use them, then what would we be suing NCSoft for if we by definition already have ownership of our property that is rightfully ours?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2013, 01:22:10 AM »
I figured this much.

So then that means we can legally recreate our characters from there in other media since we own them. This which brings me to my next question. Since we still own our characters and can still create them and use them, then what would we be suing NCSoft for if we by definition already have ownership of our property that is rightfully ours?

Quote
you see I know there were characters people created that were intended to 'fit-in' to paragon and the rougue isles and such, I have a few myself: Arbiter Seth for one on the redside.

you see, the character right is owned by me, and the character's implementation was specifically designed for CoH/V, withot CoH/V I would need to ascertain rights from NCSoft to continue using my character in other mediums because the story would definitely revolve around the CoH/V universe..

this.

by CoH not being live I can't use this character because it pertains to the CoH/V universe.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2013, 04:14:45 AM »
this.

by CoH not being live I can't use this character because it pertains to the CoH/V universe.
Ah I see.

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2013, 05:57:19 AM »
Maybe tomorrow, if I decide to, I may pull every stinking section of the EULA that is involved in this entire debate and point it out.  It's gonna be a helluva long quote box post though... But trust me.  I spent hours pouring over it.  I am not wrong, and I simply wish to not allow the idea that NCSoft owns MY CHARACTERS to perpetuate.

Actually, I would like it if you did this since you apparently (no sarcasm here) know more about the EULA (End User License Agreement for those of you who don't know) than most. If you are right, then I'll admit it. But, everything I've ever read, in the EULA and elsewhere, tells me otherwise. If I am wrong though, it would only be if you were to go by the strictest meaning of "ownership." The difference between the rights of ours and the rights of theirs to our characters is that we created them. Other than that, they could do with them as they please without our permission or reimbursement, which to me implies dual ownership.


Quote
Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side.  And it's wrong.  And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow. 

Have fun burninatin' me until then. :)

No need to get unhappy because of someone else's point of view... especially if it's wrong. And no one is trying to burn you. Well, I'm not anyway.  :D
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2013, 06:05:57 AM »
why not just sue them and get it over with?

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2013, 06:10:39 AM »
(Java is mandatory, and I think maybe I'll study python and C)

Study C. Study assembly (any architecture) if you get the opportunity.

Algorithms and high level languages are great, and are very useful for building complex applications. However, knowing how things work at the lowest level, how and why things are designed that way, will help you be a much better programmer. Too many are ignorant of the layers they're building on and think only in terms of the high level concepts.

If you can look at piece of Java code and think to yourself, "It will be compiled to this sequence of bytecodes, which will probably get JITed to assembly that does XYZ." then you're doing good. Sooner or later, everything becomes a sequence of operations in a state machine.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 06:11:19 AM »

Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side.  And it's wrong.  And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow. 

Have fun burninatin' me until then. :)

Well I think your creations are truely yours. no one can take that away. But that doesnt mean they have to allow use of the media that they own to continue to advance or create your creation.

The creation is yours. You can create it on any media you choose, assuming that media is available and the owners of that medium allows you to do so. By definition you can create a drawing of your creation and post it on youtube. You can even create a website with the creation of your making. You probably and most likely can create your creation on WoW, CO, DCUO and etc without fear of reprecussion. On the same token though, the game is their creation and just as a person is irked by saying that your creation does not belong to you, they probably feel the same way about the game. Just like I'm sure you'd probably wouldnt want people to tell you that you cannot delete your creation and by law, you havea right to do that, they can do the same with their creation.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 02:08:32 PM »
On the prior page was a post dissecting parts of the EULA with "Translated From Legalese" sections.

Is there some imprecision in the language of the "translations" that would make it less enforceable, or would it just not impress a trained lawyer for its lack of typical "legal language?"

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 05:31:10 PM »
Study C. Study assembly (any architecture) if you get the opportunity.

Algorithms and high level languages are great, and are very useful for building complex applications. However, knowing how things work at the lowest level, how and why things are designed that way, will help you be a much better programmer. Too many are ignorant of the layers they're building on and think only in terms of the high level concepts.

If you can look at piece of Java code and think to yourself, "It will be compiled to this sequence of bytecodes, which will probably get JITed to assembly that does XYZ." then you're doing good. Sooner or later, everything becomes a sequence of operations in a state machine.

thanks for the tips! I'll definitely study assembly. had some problems compiling from svc before, turns out I used the wrong C interpreter. Borland doesn't have updated support for macros. to be honest I already know Qbasic and visual basic and some python. but I'm still not in your league XD
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 05:32:44 PM »
why not just sue them and get it over with?

precautions, must make sure to study the case myself and get second opinions from other legal professionals.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

srmalloy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 450
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 07:09:22 PM »
The Lego analogy above can only be taken so far.  When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks.  The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego.  Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back."  You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever.  You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.

No, the analogy is still on all fours; what you're missing is that you're not buying Legos to play with; you're going down to a center run by NCSoft where they have all kinds of Legos available for people to play with, and making your constructs there. You don't actually own any of the Legos; they all belong to NCSoft, and they just let you play with them.

Blue Pulsar

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 213
  • Epic Mediocrity
Re: Legal push for the release of the IP
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2013, 09:02:19 PM »
No, the analogy is still on all fours; what you're missing is that you're not buying Legos to play with; you're going down to a center run by NCSoft where they have all kinds of Legos available for people to play with, and making your constructs there. You don't actually own any of the Legos; they all belong to NCSoft, and they just let you play with them.

The problem with analogies that don't fit too well with reality is that... well... they don't fit to well with reality. There is no such thing as a place where you get to rent and play with Lego's and not own them. And if there were, it'd be very silly since you can buy Lego's really cheap. I, along with others here, understand the analogy, but it was poorly made.

A closer analogy would be my high school welding class. They provided the massive amounts of electricity to run the machines, the welding rods, the shielding gas, the steel and aluminum stock, and even the tools to cut, grind, and sand the pieces and product. I put my ideas, my intellectual property, into my work, but because of the contract I signed at the school, and the fact that everything I used was owned by them, they own my project and could use it for display purposes or recycle it. Now, I could go out and buy a welder along with all the other stuff and remake my project, but the original didn't belong to me. Only the concept of it did.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom