Author Topic: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.  (Read 335779 times)

Twisted Toon

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #940 on: April 04, 2014, 02:52:55 AM »
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!!  8)
I teleport there.  ;)
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malonkey1

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #941 on: April 04, 2014, 04:24:49 AM »
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!!  8)

Or run! Why you gotta make speedsters sad... :(
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #942 on: April 04, 2014, 08:48:33 AM »
You don't drive there, silly. You fly there. Or SJ there. Everyone knows this!!  8)
I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City.  You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.

Triplash

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #943 on: April 04, 2014, 01:40:52 PM »
I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City.  You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't remember ever seeing any War Ceilings. Just sayin'.

In fact, that's probably how the Rikti were able to bypass them and invade as often as they did. They deployed the awesome might of their highly advanced "go over it" technology.

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #944 on: April 04, 2014, 03:57:40 PM »
More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game?  There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.

I guess for an MMO, that's a concern... maybe? But there's plenty of single-player (and non-MMO multi-player) games out there that have large communities, lots of social interaction, and even user-generated content - without shared servers. I guess I need to see the point of a shared server - do you (the game-maker) want social interaction? Money? Communal events?





Why do you think automated driving removes all other functions?  The Fedex guy and the pizza guy just don't need drivers licenses.  And if you use tele-operated delivery drone/robots to go from truck to door (segway style technology), you can run your deliveries with one employee doing the work that 25 do today since they only need to pilot at the delivery point, not between.

But the major area is truckers and cab driver like functions.

So... would being a delivery person become an entry-level, minimum wage job then? Because I can't imagine an employer being happy to pay a delivery person to sit on their butt while a truck drives them around to do a couple minutes of work - and I can't imagine a current truck driver being happy that their pay is getting slashed because half their job is being replaced.

But I can see cabs or long distance truckers being replaced, once cab passengers, and businesses that transport goods, are convinced the tech is safe enough that the cargo (passengers or merchandise) won't be destroyed in the process.

I thought you had to catch the ferry to Paragon City.  You can fly in Paragon City, but if you try to fly to Paragon City you'll smash into the War Walls like a bug on a windshield.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I don't remember ever seeing any War Ceilings. Just sayin'.

In fact, that's probably how the Rikti were able to bypass them and invade as often as they did. They deployed the awesome might of their highly advanced "go over it" technology.

Plus there were helicopters, Arachnos fliers, fighter jets, a blimp...
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #945 on: April 04, 2014, 06:33:15 PM »
In fact, that's probably how the Rikti were able to bypass them and invade as often as they did. They deployed the awesome might of their highly advanced "go over it" technology.

On Primal Earth we don't care if you invade from space, we just want to make sure you keep your invasion forces in level-appropriate areas.  Heck at the prison that houses our most dangerous criminals the outer fences are mostly just a suggestion.

In one city we have a nuclear reactor constantly overloading, three separate parts of the city definitively haunted, psychic killer robots clogging most of the highways, intelligent killer trees infect a quarter of the green spaces, several miles of toxic chemical spill no one bothers trying to clean up, snipers shooting from the tall buildings, and a giant meteor crater.  That people still choose to live in.

I honestly have no idea why inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, and ancient gods keep trying to invade Primal Earth, but its like watching a boy scout troop trying to invade the grizzly bear cage at the zoo.  Some people run away from danger, some run towards danger.  Primal Earth denizens put out lawn chairs and tailgate danger.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #946 on: April 05, 2014, 12:01:39 AM »
I honestly have no idea why inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, and ancient gods keep trying to invade Primal Earth, but its like watching a boy scout troop trying to invade the grizzly bear cage at the zoo.  Some people run away from danger, some run towards danger.  Primal Earth denizens put out lawn chairs and tailgate danger.
"Hey John."
"Hey, just got off work; what's going on at the park?"
"Ooh, some bug guy calling himself the Ch-thraxi Emperor just announced that the planet is now under his mighty foot as the Tungsten Force showed up."
"Tungsten Force? That the group that focuses the thermal stuff and big weapons?"
"Yeah, they brought a bunch of heroes waving those stupid huge rocket hammer things and three or four who do that fire shield and radiation stuff."
"Oh yeah! ...That's gonna hurt... And he's down! That didn't take long."
"You missed the first two hours where the 'Emperor' kept dropping these pod things full of soldiers into the park to 'form the anchor of my empire'."
"So that's why all those dump trucks were outside bringing traffic to a crawl."
"Yeah, one of the pods even knocked my grill over and started a grass fire; luckily an ice blaster put it out before it could spread. At least they missed my cooler."
"Betcha ten bucks Sky raiders show up to loot some Ch-thraxi gear in the next ten and get their asses kicked."
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Ohioknight

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #947 on: April 05, 2014, 03:18:30 AM »

In one city we have a nuclear reactor constantly overloading, three separate parts of the city definitively haunted, psychic killer robots clogging most of the highways, intelligent killer trees infect a quarter of the green spaces, several miles of toxic chemical spill no one bothers trying to clean up, snipers shooting from the tall buildings, and a giant meteor crater.  That people still choose to live in.


Not to mention the unbelievable rate of street crime and the totally revolving-door justice system!  I can't count the number of times I put Frostfire away, only to have him right back out and in his headquarters before I could even run across the Hollows.
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malonkey1

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #948 on: April 05, 2014, 03:29:44 PM »
Not to mention the unbelievable rate of street crime and the totally revolving-door justice system!  I can't count the number of times I put Frostfire away, only to have him right back out and in his headquarters before I could even run across the Hollows.

Well, considering most of the evidence that heroes bring in is gotten through coercion and violence, it's quite possible that none of the charges can stick. In the end, it's really the heroes' fault.
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Ohioknight

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #949 on: April 05, 2014, 10:40:22 PM »
Well, considering most of the evidence that heroes bring in is gotten through coercion and violence, it's quite possible that none of the charges can stick. In the end, it's really the heroes' fault.

That and all the witnesses to the street crime just say "nice outfit" or whatever and just run to the nearest door instead of waiting for the cops -- so it's not all the hero's fault.
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #950 on: April 06, 2014, 12:07:22 AM »
Well, considering most of the evidence that heroes bring in is gotten through coercion and violence, it's quite possible that none of the charges can stick. In the end, it's really the heroes' fault.
Evidence?

Kuriositys Kat

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #951 on: April 06, 2014, 12:59:18 AM »
On Primal Earth we don't care if you invade from space, we just want to make sure you keep your invasion forces in level-appropriate areas.  Heck at the prison that houses our most dangerous criminals the outer fences are mostly just a suggestion.

In one city we have a nuclear reactor constantly overloading, three separate parts of the city definitively haunted, psychic killer robots clogging most of the highways, intelligent killer trees infect a quarter of the green spaces, several miles of toxic chemical spill no one bothers trying to clean up, snipers shooting from the tall buildings, and a giant meteor crater.  That people still choose to live in.

I honestly have no idea why inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, and ancient gods keep trying to invade Primal Earth, but its like watching a boy scout troop trying to invade the grizzly bear cage at the zoo.  Some people run away from danger, some run towards danger.  Primal Earth denizens put out lawn chairs and tailgate danger.

And this from Nyx:

Quote
"Hey John."
"Hey, just got off work; what's going on at the park?"
"Ooh, some bug guy calling himself the Ch-thraxi Emperor just announced that the planet is now under his mighty foot as the Tungsten Force showed up."
"Tungsten Force? That the group that focuses the thermal stuff and big weapons?"
"Yeah, they brought a bunch of heroes waving those stupid huge rocket hammer things and three or four who do that fire shield and radiation stuff."
"Oh yeah! ...That's gonna hurt... And he's down! That didn't take long."
"You missed the first two hours where the 'Emperor' kept dropping these pod things full of soldiers into the park to 'form the anchor of my empire'."
"So that's why all those dump trucks were outside bringing traffic to a crawl."
"Yeah, one of the pods even knocked my grill over and started a grass fire; luckily an ice blaster put it out before it could spread. At least they missed my cooler."
"Betcha ten bucks Sky raiders show up to loot some Ch-thraxi gear in the next ten and get their asses kicked."
"You're on, but I'm betting it's Freakshow. Want a beer?"

Made me realize that Paragon City is like Australia (AKA Everything Here will Kill You) for Americans....
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, and somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do!" - The Doctor

LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #952 on: April 06, 2014, 10:43:20 PM »
Star Trek's economy and a barter system are very different.....

I never said Star Trek's economy was a barter system.  In fact, ST's economy is likely communistic. 
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LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #953 on: April 06, 2014, 10:58:41 PM »
Not to mention the unbelievable rate of street crime and the totally revolving-door justice system!  I can't count the number of times I put Frostfire away, only to have him right back out and in his headquarters before I could even run across the Hollows.

Good point. Maybe we should have put the judges in jail.
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #954 on: April 07, 2014, 08:43:12 AM »
I never said Star Trek's economy was a barter system.  In fact, ST's economy is likely communistic.
You said the system I was describing was a barter system, when I was describing the economy of Star Trek (which it is not).  Its also definitively not communistic because its not based on a socially mandated distribution of a superabundance of goods.  Its based on a system of post-scarcity of essentials combined with meritocratic social service structures (i.e. Star Fleet) and free market micro-economies.  If the economic model of Star Trek was communistic, it would be essentially impossible for individuals to trade with non-Federation societies, for example.  There is clearly an extremely strong socialistic safety net, but its not implemented through redistribution, its implemented via massive supply of certain critical goods, in particular energy.  Private ownership exists throughout the Federation and there are consistent examples of it.  Private intellectual property exists, for example, because people are shown to own the rights to inventions.  Private trade exists, as traders exist within the Federation and that trade between the Federation and other species.  And outside of non-scarce materials there is still a market system of some kind, as people engaged in scarcity-related industries are described as being rewarded in some way (for example, the dilithium miners in Mudd's Women are doing that hazardous work because they believe it will make them rich, and Harry Mudd himself believes he can get rich in some fashion trading his drugs).  In the TNG episode The Price the Federation bid units of currency - Federation credits - for access to the wormhole; credit that Federation personnel often used in Quark's bar in DS9.  These credits are probably not money as we know it, but serve similar purposes in certain environments.  Beyond the minimums, even in the Federation there are rich and not-rich people, so the system isn't an equidistributive one.

Its probably the case that *Earth's* economy no longer uses money for most local economic purposes, but each planet in the Federation has its own local economy that can be different.  Across the Federation trade occurs using a Federation-wide system of exchange and credits, and even Earth citizens can earn credits, which can be used in currency/market based systems.

LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #955 on: April 07, 2014, 11:45:06 PM »
You said the system I was describing was a barter system, when I was describing the economy of Star Trek (which it is not).  Its also definitively not communistic because its not based on a socially mandated distribution of a superabundance of goods.  Its based on a system of post-scarcity of essentials combined with meritocratic social service structures (i.e. Star Fleet) and free market micro-economies.  If the economic model of Star Trek was communistic, it would be essentially impossible for individuals to trade with non-Federation societies, for example.  There is clearly an extremely strong socialistic safety net, but its not implemented through redistribution, its implemented via massive supply of certain critical goods, in particular energy.  Private ownership exists throughout the Federation and there are consistent examples of it.  Private intellectual property exists, for example, because people are shown to own the rights to inventions.  Private trade exists, as traders exist within the Federation and that trade between the Federation and other species.  And outside of non-scarce materials there is still a market system of some kind, as people engaged in scarcity-related industries are described as being rewarded in some way (for example, the dilithium miners in Mudd's Women are doing that hazardous work because they believe it will make them rich, and Harry Mudd himself believes he can get rich in some fashion trading his drugs).  In the TNG episode The Price the Federation bid units of currency - Federation credits - for access to the wormhole; credit that Federation personnel often used in Quark's bar in DS9.  These credits are probably not money as we know it, but serve similar purposes in certain environments.  Beyond the minimums, even in the Federation there are rich and not-rich people, so the system isn't an equidistributive one.

Its probably the case that *Earth's* economy no longer uses money for most local economic purposes, but each planet in the Federation has its own local economy that can be different.  Across the Federation trade occurs using a Federation-wide system of exchange and credits, and even Earth citizens can earn credits, which can be used in currency/market based systems.

Here is what I was referring too:  "If you want to have organically grown food as a lifestyle choice, you have to become a farmer.  Or get it from a farmer, perhaps by trading some other skill."

Trading some other skill for organic foods is barter.

Now to the other part of the question:  All societies that exist or have existed have elements of capitalism, socialism, and communism in them.  While we consider the system in use in the USA to be capitalism, we have elements of socialism and communism.  Even the Soviet Union had capitalistic elements.  Just not that many.  When I call a society a capitalistic, socialistic or communistic society, I'm referring to the overall.  Is it mostly socialism?  Is it mostly capitalism?  There are plenty of examples I could pull from any (real) society you can name for all three systems.  Communism being the hardest to find of course given our society's disdain for it, but it is still present.

Now as for Star Trek, you first must keep in mind that it isn't real.  Depending on the author who wrote the book/movie/short story/etc., you will find varying degrees of each system.  And I'm talking about just within the Federation.  I'm not talking about Klingons, Romulans, or Feregi.  Even the movies can't agree.  In some shows, walk into a bar and order a drink.  No reference to paying.  Customer walks out.  Walk into another bar and you pay or you leave.  And in still another you're told your credit's good.  Even in Quarks bar, I never saw Mr. O'Brien pull out a slip of gold pressed latinum to pay for his Ale and he certainly ordered quite a few throughout the seven years DS-9 ran.  Now Quark did make many references to putting it on his bill which confirms there's a system of money but then why the speech between Lilly and Picard in First Contact about not being paid?  Picard's answer was, "we work to better ourselves."  OK.  So how did Mr. O'Brien get credit to pay for his bar tab?  And while a society could be a communistic society, that wouldn't stop it from trading with others.  It makes goods and services and while it might not use money internally, it can externally.
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #956 on: April 08, 2014, 12:45:03 AM »
Here is what I was referring too:  "If you want to have organically grown food as a lifestyle choice, you have to become a farmer.  Or get it from a farmer, perhaps by trading some other skill."

Trading some other skill for organic foods is barter.

I'm aware of that, but since the system I was describing explicitly states that such a trade is optional to the system, the system I'm describing isn't barter.  I even mentioned an example where it was not (Sisko's family restaurant).


Quote
Now to the other part of the question:  All societies that exist or have existed have elements of capitalism, socialism, and communism in them.  While we consider the system in use in the USA to be capitalism, we have elements of socialism and communism.  Even the Soviet Union had capitalistic elements.  Just not that many.  When I call a society a capitalistic, socialistic or communistic society, I'm referring to the overall.  Is it mostly socialism?  Is it mostly capitalism?  There are plenty of examples I could pull from any (real) society you can name for all three systems.  Communism being the hardest to find of course given our society's disdain for it, but it is still present.

Now as for Star Trek, you first must keep in mind that it isn't real.  Depending on the author who wrote the book/movie/short story/etc., you will find varying degrees of each system.  And I'm talking about just within the Federation.  I'm not talking about Klingons, Romulans, or Feregi.  Even the movies can't agree.  In some shows, walk into a bar and order a drink.  No reference to paying.  Customer walks out.  Walk into another bar and you pay or you leave.  And in still another you're told your credit's good.  Even in Quarks bar, I never saw Mr. O'Brien pull out a slip of gold pressed latinum to pay for his Ale and he certainly ordered quite a few throughout the seven years DS-9 ran.  Now Quark did make many references to putting it on his bill which confirms there's a system of money but then why the speech between Lilly and Picard in First Contact about not being paid?  Picard's answer was, "we work to better ourselves."  OK.  So how did Mr. O'Brien get credit to pay for his bar tab?  And while a society could be a communistic society, that wouldn't stop it from trading with others.  It makes goods and services and while it might not use money internally, it can externally.

1.  Support for the assertion that the system is "likely communistic" cannot come from the observation that the system is fictional and ambiguous.  That's what I call a self-annihilating argument.

2.  To assert something is communistic its not enough to claim it shares aspects of communism; it must share unique aspects of communism that distinguish it from competing systems.  Both communism and socialism (in its various forms) incorporate the notion of social ownership or control of the productive output of the economy, but where they diverge is that communism purports as its goal a form of unlimited democratic control of governance and economic control while socialism is more flexible in incorporating markets and hierarchical control.  A major distinction is that a common paraphrase of communism is "from each according to his ability, and to each according to his need"; the respective socialism version is "from each according to his ability, and to each according to is contribution."  Beyond the essentials, socialism contains an element of meritocratic reward that communism does not, and its evident in Star Trek that people who contribute exceptionally can benefit exceptionally, just not generally to the impairment of others.

More specifically, communism espouses the notion of an abolishment of private property.  Socialism distinguishes private property from the social commons, or public property, and both coexist.

There has never been an example of a pure communistic system, but that's irrelevant to the question of which system Star Trek is depicted to have most resembles.  In every respect it resembles communism, its a property of communism that overlaps with socialism.  Beyond that, it contains socialistic elements that are inconsistent with communism.  If you can name an aspect of the economy that is depicted in Star Trek that is associated with communism and *not* associated with socialism, I would be prepared to reconsider.  And I'll toss out the first one that fails the test: although characters have stated at various times that "money doesn't exist" or "money isn't used" in the time of Star Trek, that's an apparent colloquialism because those statements do not override cases where money is actually used or explicitly stated to exist, just in narrow cases.  They also use other colloquialisms that state the opposite, such as "you've earned your pay for the week."  Those clearly aren't statements of economic fact.

LadyVamp

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #957 on: April 08, 2014, 01:38:41 AM »
Alright, dude.  We're not going to see eye to eye.  I'm not going to convince you.  You're not going to convince me.  Out of respect for everyone here, I'm going to drop it.  This topic should really be closed as none of this has anything to do with the OP's desire to have a private server.
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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #958 on: April 08, 2014, 03:34:35 AM »
My question about private servers wasn't answered, so maybe that's a good place to go back to?

More generally, how do you convince players to support shared servers, which cost money to run, when they have their own server and don't need the shared server to play the game?  There have to be incentives beyond classic access control (i.e. login access or gates to content) because on their own servers they have the keys to all the gates.

I guess for an MMO, that's a concern... maybe? But there's plenty of single-player (and non-MMO multi-player) games out there that have large communities, lots of social interaction, and even user-generated content - without shared servers. I guess I need to see the point of a shared server - do you (the game-maker) want social interaction? Money? Communal events?
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Arcana

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Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
« Reply #959 on: April 08, 2014, 04:26:30 AM »
My question about private servers wasn't answered, so maybe that's a good place to go back to?

I guess for an MMO, that's a concern... maybe? But there's plenty of single-player (and non-MMO multi-player) games out there that have large communities, lots of social interaction, and even user-generated content - without shared servers. I guess I need to see the point of a shared server - do you (the game-maker) want social interaction? Money? Communal events?

The point to shared servers would be: that's what MMOs are.  I wish it was more interesting of an answer, but that's all.

This is related to a topic that came up from time to time on the official forums with regard to the notion of the developers having a "vision" for the game.  The question was whether the developers should even have a vision for the game at all, instead of simply building what the majority of players want (or at least say they want).  Some players were adamant that all that mattered was what the players said they wanted, and by definition a game development company should strive as their number one priority to satisfy their customers' demands.  However, as I argued, that's not how it works.  The people with no vision, with no desire, with no passion for a target game don't make games.  The only people that do make games are the people that actually want to make games, and they usually have opinions on what kind of games they want to make, or what would make a good game.  City of Heroes was an MMO because Cryptic wanted to make an MMO.  It was about superheroes because Cryptic wanted to make a game based on superheroes.  There was a lot of discussion and negotiation between the players and the devs, probably more than in almost any other MMO, but we were never going to convince them to make City of Heroes a single player game, or make it about Orcs and Elves instead of the superhero/comic book-related genres.

I am a customer service professional.  I serve the needs of my customers.  But I only do what I decide I want to do.  If my customers want a pizza, I send them to Domino's.  I do not fire up my oven.  If you think being a paying customer entitles you to decide otherwise, I have a surprise for you.

Some people want to make MMOs.  They want to make them for a variety of reasons, but mostly its likely to be because that's their passion, or the passion of their company.  They want to explore the possibilities of the structure of the game, and asking "why" is generally missing the point.  The real question is, does anyone want to explore the possibilities of a different kind of game, a distributed multiplayer game in essence, and are the possibilities associated with that interesting enough to fuel the development of one.  Absent that, I don't think you're going to see new MMO development centered on private servers: its illogical in the general case.