Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[chaparralshrub]

Avelworldcreator just said what I was going to say: the Phoenix Project, or Heroes and Villains for that matter, do need players. Some things that players want or suggest aren't feasible for any number of possible reasons. Some are. This means that just because a player asks for it doesn't mean that s/he will get it. Nonetheless, if a player does honestly want something, the developers have every reason to take the request seriously.

[JWBullfrog]

And some problems don't even reveal themselves until a game is being actively played.

[dwturducken]

Yeah, I pretty much am hoping that the game doesn't take long enough for me to actually learn enough programming to be useful, but I'll be there with bells on for testing. I have yet to come across something I can't break. :)

[Zombie Hustler]

Not being a member of the tech team for the Phoenix Project, I can't speak for how easy or difficult this might be, but given how Sentinel+ enables extraction of characters from CoH while using its own unique format that can be, from what I understand, legally uploaded into another project, I see no reason why a similar utility couldn't be made for the two Plan Zs. I believe that using Sentinel+ for the Phoenix Project is an idea that's already in the works, in fact. If my not-legal and not-technical understanding is correct, then all that needs to happen is for HaV to do the same.

See, now this would be awesome. How great would it be to be able to use the same character information and move between games like that? To have even different alternative world sort-of games in the "Hero Network"? Sci-Fi World? Lost World? Etc.

(And I realize I'm  moving way off-topic now. Sorry!)

[Nebularian]

Actually I was soliciting opinion. You gave a very considered and objective analysis earlier and it seemed wise to seek more of the same. Someone has to play the games too. :)

Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

[Nebularian]

See, now this would be awesome. How great would it be to be able to use the same character information and move between games like that? To have even different alternative world sort-of games in the "Hero Network"? Sci-Fi World? Lost World? Etc.

(And I realize I'm  moving way off-topic now. Sorry!)

Exactly....I think that would be a wonderful idea.   COH had its Blue, Red, and Gold sides.....so can Plan Z!

[dwturducken]

As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

[downix]

Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

I don't know about H&V, but it is on the table along with private/small group options, if you wanted to just play with your friends, for PP.

I'm with you here.

[0nehanklap]

I know it's just my 2 cents, and that's about all I have to offer to the effort anyway,  but as much as I think everyone would like to see perfect unity and direction in a "plan z", there are way too many "passionate and talented" folks at work here  - and on their own dime - for that to be a realistic expectation.  From an awful lot of experience, passion and talent are often closely associated with ego, and volunteer projects are limited by the time constraints and cooperative motivation of each volunteer.  In other words, if they don't feel like cooperating, or if egos get bruised in the sometimes violent creative process, (violence seen in the loss/destruction of MY ideas in the attempt to meld them with others'), there is little a manager can really do to change that.   An amicable separation is probably the best thing that could happen,  if one side or the other hits an insurmountable roadblock, perhaps lessons can be learned from the other side.  Even if one utterly fails, it may provide some wisdom, and possibly another path, for the whole.

There are, of course, downsides, amply discussed already.  These can be minimized by each of us simply resisting the urge to criticize what was inevitable & supporting whichever efforts you are able,  and feel best suited for.

[Mister Bison]

You can comment here all you want about the titan's position in this, but you should take all discussion of "TPP & H&V" here (or at least read it):

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

[Captain Electric]

What Mr. Bison seems to be doing is hitting all of the (several) threads caught up in this one topic, and directing them to a new thread that is asking us to redirect our focus on the design goal differences behind the split, rather than focusing on the personalities involved.

And it's a damn good idea, Mr. Bison. I hope people take you up on it. The only thing that's going to matter in the end is design (and production) goals, and people are going to want to know what goals they want to get behind and support or participate in. Focusing on the personality politics will not bring us the game(s) we want to play, so that's going to get old pretty fast, like yesterday, if people keep talking about it.

[Zedrik]

Weeeellllll as a player (and remember, you opened this can of worms...I quoted you for proof LOL) I can only say this at this time.  I was hyped when COH first came out....until I learned that it was online only.  I swore I would never pay for a game that I could not play offline as well.  I stuck to that until I stupidly decided to take advantage of a trial for coh....I was hooked.  COH was the only  fully online game that I have ever paid for....and the way NCSoft just screwed us has made me go back to that stand.  When (notice I say WHEN, not IF.  I have confidence in all of you working on both projects) either of these projects goes live, I hope they do take offline content into account.  I remember a game I played offline that could be played online as well.  The first Never Winter Nights, I think.  I don't think you could take your offline characters online...which was a good thing.  The offline content for either of these projects could be extremely limited (It would have to be, I suppose) but it would be something.  More than we have left of COH except for memories and hopes.

I would be more than willing to support an online game by subscribing....if I could also play a bit offline as well.

So....do you know if either Team is considering things from that aspect?

NWN1 servers are still around, too. NWN1 is a very versatile game, and still attracts new players. People will buy it off of GOG to play on the various servers. Another solid game like CoH that proves you don't need to be the bestest and most up to date to still have a decent following.

[RogerWilco]

Open Source projects nearly always have infights between the different visions and persons with a "my way or the highway" attitude seem to be especially frequent. It's why the internet is littered with failed Open Source projects and the community is so fragmented. The few exceptions either have a great leader or a company backing them.

I do not expect either project to be successful, the odds are against it. I will still try to contribute, but more for the fun of learning and being busy creatively.

[avelworldcreator]

Open Source projects nearly always have infights between the different visions and persons with a "my way or the highway" attitude seem to be especially frequent. It's why the internet is littered with failed Open Source projects and the community is so fragmented. The few exceptions either have a great leader or a company backing them.

I do not expect either project to be successful, the odds are against it. I will still try to contribute, but more for the fun of learning and being busy creatively.

The Phoenix Project DOES have a company backing them. And there is great leadership. The balance of the group is currently stable and working well together. There will be further official announcements indicating just how stable it is.

[Twisted Toon]

As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

The problem you run into with those systems is that a computer is not as flexible in tailoring the encounter to the specific character's strengths and weaknesses like a living breathing person. The GM in a PnP game can modify things on the fly to account for jonny-one-shot and his super awesome energy blast. But still make the other less "specialized" characters feel useful.

It would be awesome though. I agree.

They could have added a little more free-form power choices in CoH if they had altered the ATs a little.
Create a baseline AT (can even call it a "man" AT) then add inherants to that based on the AT the player chooses.
Tanks would get +MaxHP, +DR, -Damage, Gauntlet.
Scrappers could get +Def, +Max HP (less than tanks), +Crits,
Blasters could get +Damage, +Damage, +Acc.
Controllers could get +Mez, maybe some other stuff.
Defenders could get +Buff/DeBuff, stuff like that.

Then you can open up ranged attacks for scrappers and Tanks, melee attacks for Controllers, Defenders, and Blasters.
Plus, it would be easier to balance the power-sets because all the ATs would have access to the same Moonbeam, Bonesmash, and Nova.
Additionally, it would be easier to balance the ATs since all you would have to do is tweak the inherants.

If I recall correctly, this was all discussed back in issue 8 or 9 on the CoH Forums. :)

[Athalwolf]

Just to pipe in: There will ALWAYS be those wanting to control or tailor make to their ideas, what everyone should know by now is Not Everyone will be happy with every detail or direction.

Is not a bad thing, it's normal life, we just need to keep it together as the group we are: we loved the game and our friends playing it...... and maybe some of their friends too lol

We have a goal: we love the game, tried to save it and lost but hey we're still here and want to bring that feeling of the game back to team with our friends and have the fun we had there.

I think their are Many smart ppl here that can bring this off if they work together and ego is beaten down with an emote bat to give us the feel of CoH again, hell I would not care is the alts looked like south park if we got our game back in one form or other.

You have my support in this, I hope to see one or both projects see service.

Tom Ashley, USN Retired & DAV (Athalwolf)

[TargetOne]

As cool as a virtual GURPS or the Hero System would be...  Damn!  You know, I know enough to know what I don't know, and I know that there is no way that this is within the scope of what the current team can do any time soon, but it may be something that can be added on. It would be friggin' awesome, though!

Years ago, when my friends and I used to play this custom tabletop RPG, we actually bought a software package that was supposed to be used for taking a tabletop RPG and playing it over the Internet. The idea was, it was hard to get people who were scattered everywhere to all get together in the same room, so the software would let the GM and players translate a game into a digital form (with maps, character sheets, etc.) and play it online. All the players would run one program, while the GM ran another, all connecting to a server to tie them together. Theoretically, the software was flexible enough to allow just about any pen-and-paper RPG to be translated into online gameplay.

Unfortunately, the software proved to be somewhat cumbersome to use, was kind of buggy, and we never did get around to the hard work of fully translating our game into its system (typing text, scanning maps, etc.). More to the point, though, was the fact that the problem we were having was not so much that we couldn't get everybody physically together in one place, but that we also couldn't all play on the same days and times. So we ultimately gave up. And the company that released the software went out of business long ago.

Still, the idea of having an online means to play tabletop-style RPGs with friends does continue to have some appeal.\

TargetOne

[dwturducken]

That was one of the things about CoH, for my Friday night group.  We had all played Champions, though not all together at once, and this was as close as we thought was possible in a MMORPG. This was a damnsight closer than the MMO that bears its name, anyway.

The 6th Edition Hero System rules are supposed to allow you to "seemlessly" take your CO character PnP and back. No idea how the back would work, but it sure sounds nice. Hero System has multiple genres, so does that mean STO uses the same mechanics? :)

(I doubt it, but it'd be the same kind of thing.)