Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[TonyV]

Hey all, there's been a bit of confusion--and drama--around "Plan Z", a new Heroes and Villains web site, Titan's involvement, and other such topics.  I wanted to make a post on what's going on, who's doing what, and what's "official" and what's just moral support.

The term "Plan Z" was, as far as I can tell, first used by Golden Girl within a couple of days of the announced shutdown.  Within a short time after that, "Plan Z" was kind of a generic name given to the idea of developing an entirely new "spiritual successor" to City of Heroes--that is, a game that contains the elements of what made City of Heroes so fun and popular, but without the intellectual property (characters, names, artwork, etc.) that would be copyright infringement on NCsoft's property.  At the time, Golden Girl wanted to get started, but with multiple efforts underway to save the existing City of Heroes franchise, she tempered her involvement in such a project to not interfere with those efforts.

Over the course of the next couple of months, it became obvious that NCsoft was not interested right now in releasing the City of Heroes IP, so Plan Z because more and more of a likely fallback contingency plan for keeping the spirit of our community alive in the form of another game.  In the meantime, several other people got involved, and the project started "getting legs", so to speak.

Eventually, though, separate visions of what a successor should be and how it should be developed started emerging.  I won't lie, there was some gnashing of teeth and some arguing, but it's important to realize that although the visions might be different, the goals are the same, that we're still all on the same team here, that we're still all part of the same community.  I don't want anyone coming away from this thinking that the community is splitting up or anything; we're not.

So after some talking and hashing of some stuff out, the end result is that everyone has agreed that "Plan Z" refers to kind of an umbrella idea that a new spiritual successor to City of Heroes will be developed.  It is not in and of itself a specific project.  When you see a reference to "Plan Z: Heroes and Villains" or "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project," those are two separate development efforts, tied together by the fact that both were inspired and seek to recreate the spirit of City of Heroes.  They share an idea, and there might be some resources that pop back and forth between both.

Where does the Titan Network fit into all of this?  To start, we're not leading either project.  Not that we don't think that either one is worthwhile, they're both very cool.  But to be honest, we've been focused on other things, especially around the game shutdown.  Also, we're not game designers, and a project of this scope requires more people with a bigger talent variety than we currently have dedicated to our utilities and web sites.  We are providing some space for forums related to the projects, and you might see some of our crew becoming more involved in either or both of these projects.

We're not trying to distance or disassociate ourselves with either project, but I want to make sure that credit lands where credit is due.  Over the years, to be honest, I've felt a little guilty when people say, for example, "Thanks Tony for all of the hard work you put in on the wiki!"  While I implicitly understand that they're complimenting our whole crew, it still makes me feel a little weird when I feel like people might have the impression that I single-handedly created all of the articles and run the software and everything.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  And if these projects are successes and people start doling out credit to me or the Titan Network for the blood, sweat, and tears of other development teams, that would be grossly unfair.

So who do we officially endorse?  Both!  The way I see it, there is plenty of room for two games.  (Or even more, if another team wants to jump in and have at it!)  It's not like no one ever fought in the City of Heroes community over what that game should be, or yelled at the devs over how they were taking the game in a wrong direction.  Lest we look back with rose-colored glasses, remember that even City of Heroes itself wasn't everything to everyone, and now we have a chance for people to put their development mettle to the test.  With multiple projects, when all is said and done, people may very well be able to decide which designer's vision they like best and have a game more custom-tailored to what they find fun.

I know there's a tendency when people have multiple competing visions of how something should be done to gather around and start yelling, "Fight!  Fight!"  Please don't; there are probably a few frayed nerves in the mix, but any competition is pretty friendly and in the spirit of making the best games for the best community that can be made.  I want people to openly and publicly support these projects--either or both--not choosing sides and trying to undermine them.  That will only serve to delight the unicorns who thinks that the idea itself is a bad one, and they are the ones who should be mocked and yelled at.
:)

Edit: Corrected typo

[Kaiser Tarantula]

I can understand the neutral-oriented viewpoint, Tony, and respect it.  However, I would like to make a few points.

One reason why you're directly associated with the Phoenix Project is because he Phoenix Project is primarily hosted and discussed here, on Titan Network, whereas the Heroes and Villains Project isn't.  There isn't even a forum section or threads devoted to the latter (and though she's welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, I get the impression that GG wouldn't want to post any work here even if there were).

You are also the Head Web Developer of the Phoenix Project.  So you are directly associated with the project, in a staff position no less.  Now, I can understand that your viewpoint and actions might not represent that of Titan Network in a legal status, but to the casual observer, the administration of Titan Network is much more closely tied with the Phoenix Project than any of its counterparts.  People are going to associate one with the other.

Whether intentional or otherwise, Tony, you've become "the face" of Titan Network to a lot of people.  This is why you sometimes wind up with credit you don't feel you deserve.  Many people believe (rightly) that Titan Network wouldn't exist without you, and while most people don't know the names of the heads of various projects, everyone knows your name.

If you'd like to stop some of the undeserved credit, encourage the leads of various projects (like the wiki admins or the heads of Phoenix Project/Heroes and Villains project) to step up and say "You're welcome" when someone unintentionally thanks you for their efforts.  If they become more public and establish themselves as visible figures in their own right, people will be more circumspect in who they offer their thanks to - simply because they know who to thank.

[TonyV]

Well, that's kinda why I posted that message, to try to clear up the confusion.  Especially the part about how you shouldn't be surprised if you see some Titan resources--including myself--doing stuff with either or both projects.  I'll help out either of these teams as much as my schedule and abilities allow.

[Tiberian Fiend]

How entertaining!  Honestly, I have more faith in the project here now...

Edited: Please, no personal attacks! --TonyV

[Lydiastar]

Thanks for clearing that up!! I was a little ...concerned with some discussions. Ultimately I think it's hugely important that the community sees itself as one body.

When I was thinking about this concept though, I started thinking about the different servers- virtue, champion, etc. The players who played on servers started playing on a server but then stayed or moved for different reasons. The play and the people on each server was a little different, and people were attracted to what made them most comfortable. While COX is one community, we do have to remember that there is diversity within the body, and lots of different talents within the body, and that's ok!

I think that what's going to be produced as a result of the game ending will likely be as varied and interesting as the many people who played...as long as we all come together at the end of the day and have respect for one another's different visions I think it'll be just fine

[Golden Girl]

I should also point out that ""Plan Z" basically refers to any game-related project made by the CoH community to try and fill the CoH-shaped hole we have in our gamning lives - like last night, I was talking to 3 diferent players who each had their own ideas for some type of superhero games - 1 was an MO, and 2 were MUDs - and they all were interested in putting them under the Plan Z banner on the Titan Network.

None of the projects - current or future - that are grouped under the Plan Z banner should be seen as "rivals" - the CoH community is quite large, and very creative, so naturally there will be a wide variety of ideas, tastes, styles and concepts when it comes to projects that players would like to develop, and the Titan Network is big enough to accommodate them all.
Sharing ideas, tips and solutions helps everyone overcome the basic problems that any game project will meet, regardless of what form they take.

[Lunar]

What are the creative differences between the two primary Plan Z's?

[emu265]

Well I suppose that clears things up.  I will support both projects, but I can't shake the feeling of a fracturing community.

[Defcon Kid]

K, don't get me wrong with this but.... don't you think the less projects around, the more focused both developers and community could be? I mean, isn't it a waste of effort and resources if people keeps picking info, codes, lore, etc, from one game to another, instead of working together trying to get the best CoH-like possible?

[Lunar]

I'm also concerned about the fracturing of the community, actually. I feel like we would be more likely to succeed if we had everyone collectively working on one project as opposed to dividing up and expending energy and resources on multiple projects. I acknowledge that everyone has their own idea of what they'd like to see in a City of Heroes successor, and some of said ideas may conflict with others, but it's all about compromise and, most importantly, community. If we don't stand united, then we'll fall divided.

In summation, I feel that we all share the same goal: to recreate, as closely as possible, a City of Heroes successor that will emulate what we loved about the game whilst not stepping on anyone's toes where intellectual property rights are concerned. I'm afraid that dividing up in order to pursue different development visions will drastically reduce Plan Z's chance of success.

[CapaDevans]

While I appreciate Tony's post and the terms in which it was made, I have to agree with many other posters about the unhelpful fracturing of the community efforts.

As stated, artistic differences are to be expected and the mark of a good community member is to work with others and compromise to achieve something which, while it may not be THEIR exact preference, is one which is of value to the majority of the membership.

On that basis, I have to say that I feel that the fracturing is a mistake and the best chance for success would be with one spiritual successor to CoX (I do not include alternative options such as the continued attempts to purchase the IP). Given their efforts, achievements and conduct so far, I have to believe that the best group to produce that result is the Titan Network and headed by TonyV. 

[ukaserex]

need moah drama, less info.  :P

[Roughtrade]

While I appreciate Tony's post and the terms in which it was made, I have to agree with many other posters about the unhelpful fracturing of the community efforts.

Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

[Technerdoc]

I'm also thinking that it's much better to work at one game, it's hard enough to make one of them playable sometimes. Maybe it's also nice to know something about this creative differences, right now we have two projects running and no one knows in what form they will be differnt. When we don't understand what's going on here, then how can a person understand this when he is reading something about the project(s) on a news site?

...and even when there are two projects, then merge them to one sometimes when it's clear what the people will like more. I'm just happy that the community is not splitting up, it's hard enough right now after the shutdown for everyone.

[LadyImmolatasia]

While I'm new to the board, I have to agree on the idea of solidarity. I think there should be one official mod. Still, anyone with ideas should go forward. We should unite and compromise on things, though.

[Sekoia]

Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

This is good advice.

At this point, there are two Plan Z projects. That appears unlikely to change, and it's especially unlikely that individuals outside of the respective projects' leadership are going to change it. If you sincerely wish to avoid further drama or fracturing, then the best way to do so is to accept the situation and move on.

[darkgob]

post retracted

[downix]

Far more unhelpful is the continued animosity and debate about it.  It's happened.  Everyone who was not actually involved with the event carping on either side of the issue is just putting more stress on a bad situation.  From what I read the people actually involved have come to an agreeable arrangement and are working on the details.  If they are not, then they are being polite and not discussing it in public until it's settled out between them. 

Emotions of all sorts are running high due to the shutdown last night.  Give everyone a chance to breathe.  Maybe the principals actually involved with the situation may resolve their differences.  Maybe not.  Let's get on with business and let them work it out.

Well said.

I may be the tech lead of The Phoenix Project, but I am planning to assist Heroes and Villains to the best of my ability as well. I see two games with two very different targets. If anything else, the internal friendly competition will serve to make the final product better for all involved in a safe manner. Instead of the market banging you over the head, the internal competition will make the issues with both clear now, before inertia makes it hard to address and fix.

Frankly, I must thank Golden Girl for this move. While emotions ran high, after awhile, I spotted issues with our own direction, and began the work to solve that today. The break was the shock to the system needed.

[blackjak]

I have now lost all faith in any projects that bear the name Plan Z.  The project was already spinning its wheels (remember how we were gonna have a demo by Nov 30th/Dec 1st?), this failure of leadership on all sides just seals the deal.

Yeah, I'm out.

Jesus! Who thought we'd have a demo by shutdown? That timeline would be improbable in a true, running game studio! A dedicated staff could maybe have a basic, and I mean basic, trailer or something in the 2 months or so since Plan Z was thought about, but never a simple gaming community. That's absurd!

[Fulcrum]

What are the creative differences between the two primary Plan Z's?

This.  Please bring the answer to this question out into the open.