Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[Captain Electric]

The community will have to weather worse things than this. When there's a job to be done over obstacles, you've got to be optimistic about your strength to overcome them; this is different than pretending those obstacles won't be treacherous or that they won't be there at all. Which is what I feel like some people have been indulging in, based on the shock and surprise in this thread.

I believe we are capable of achieving something that will give this entire industry pause--perhaps more than once. Project Phoenix looks awesome, but Tony is offering us many baskets instead of one, and saying "No" to a free exchange of ideas would be strategically unsound, given the gauntlet of challenges and obstacles that any single project will have to evolve to surmount. Most canceled MMORPGs fail in development, not after launch. In many cases it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with creative differences or momentum or unmotivated devs or ideas that just didn't stick to the wall hard enough.

This opens the door for anyone with a big imagination who can organize other people around a great idea for a spiritual successor. I think people here will see the wisdom in Tony's choice later on, when it bears fruit.

[downix]

The community will have to weather worse things than this. When there's a job to be done over obstacles, you've got to be optimistic about your strength to overcome them; this is different than pretending those obstacles won't be treacherous or that they won't be there at all. Which is what I feel like some people have been indulging in, based on the shock and surprise in this thread.

I believe we are capable of achieving something that will give this entire industry pause--perhaps more than once. Project Phoenix looks awesome, but Tony is offering us many baskets instead of one, and saying "No" to a free exchange of ideas would be strategically unsound, given the gauntlet of challenges and obstacles that any single project will have to evolve to surmount. Most canceled MMORPGs fail in development, not after launch. In many cases it has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with creative differences or momentum or unmotivated devs or ideas that just didn't stick to the wall hard enough.

This opens the door for anyone with a big imagination who can organize other people around a great idea for a spiritual successor. I think people here will see the wisdom in Tony's choice later on, when it bears fruit.

So, who is making Plan Z: ParagonMOO?

[blackjak]

I have PlanZ: Paper Doll Rising planning now!



Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.... ;D


Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

[emu265]

I have PlanZ: Paper Doll Rising planning now!



Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.... ;D


Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

Heh.  Thanks.

I think we need to relax a little, suspicions of future conflict and a chink in the community armor shouldn't have us at each other's throats. 

[JWBullfrog]

Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't done with COH already. Costume Creator: Paper edition.

Ok show of hands, how many of us would actually buy this?

ooh, ooh, me, me!!!

[Nebularian]

Actually, I wish some one could get a hold of the EDEN people and get a copy of the COH: Role Playing Game that they weren't allowed to publish when NCSoft bought up the game. 

That could go a long way in helping and, with a few changes for legal reasons, be on offline pen/paper version of either Plan Z

[dwturducken]

Ok show of hands, how many of us would actually buy this?

ooh, ooh, me, me!!!

Fine! <begrudgingly raises hand>

[chaparralshrub]

Actually, I wish some one could get a hold of the EDEN people and get a copy of the COH: Role Playing Game that they weren't allowed to publish when NCSoft bought up the game. 

That could go a long way in helping and, with a few changes for legal reasons, be on offline pen/paper version of either Plan Z

I've been considering doing exactly that and posting it in the Roleplaying forum, but today I'm just too tired.

*

Yes, I and many of the rest of the Phoenix Project team have been watching this thread. We're currently working on plans that should quell all legal issues as well as free TonyV and Titan of any responsibilities it has regarding us. I'm not going to talk about what those are because I'm going to let our project manager or producer make the official statement (yes, we're going to be operating like a business, henceforth. :)) Of course, we can still be friends, will still be friends, we welcome any further input, I at least and I know of some others who have personally wished GG the best of luck, and yes, I'll be sticking around. After all, I've got a CoH d20 roleplaying system to make. ;)

[Mister Bison]

Well, all. You're Doing It Completely Wrong.

We have a community so large that we can afford to create a game in which *every human* can feel a gameplay similar to CoX, we'll have teams dedicated to invent *new input systems (Augmented Reality helmet & Force Feedback cape)* designed to go with the gameplay. The rules will be *a new set of gaming rules*, called *D609 (better than D20 !)*, the game will afford development of *a new programming language based on brainfuck*, which will run on *a new quantic hardware*, which *with all our crowd funding* will be *distributed freely to gamers in and around the world !*

*cough*

I'll register the domain and open the forum of "Plan µ: Idealists and Megalonaniacs"(sic) soon, keep in touch ;)

[dwturducken]

Go home, Mister Bison. You're drunk.  :P

[John Phaser]

What can I say to the assembled french community ? Oh wait... now there are 2 Plan Z ? Like a "Plan ZZ" ? I hope there will not be more and more Plan Z... 'cause we could have a Plan Zzzzzzzzz...

I'm totally lost. And TonyV's explainations are peaceful but don't convince me.

Moreover, no answers given (yet) to community about differences between the 2 projects. We know the method, the way of thinking of the Phoenix project and most of their choices. But I don't know anything about the Heroes and Vilains project. Today we need respect, I think. Don't have the same behavior as NC, please. Don't ignore people. Golden Girl, your short sentences reveal great anger or great frustration. Feel free to speak up like Bison said, please.

Maybe a vote is the best thing to put the umbrella of "Plan Z" over one of these 2 projects. There are 2 forums. We can compare. If Titan Network, Golden Girl and Phoenix City team want it, give a voice for the Community.

[chaparralshrub]

Well, I don't mean to ignore you, but I just don't feel comfortable saying what I think the differences are without the direct approval of the executive board, and we are planning a significant, imminent change, but I don't even know how imminent (I do know that it's a top priority, but given that we are all volunteers at this point and we have real life schedules that do take priority, it may still be a little while before the change happens).

I will say that all of the documentation and much of the discussion for the Phoenix Project is public.  We have a lore document and other design docs that you can download from our respective sections. Some of these are rather long - the lore document I know is over 550 pages. I can also direct you to the currently locked threads containing some of Golden Girl's lore. I don't know as much about the details of the other sides of either project because I'm on the writing team and not on any of the other teams by personal choice.

Most of the discussion is also public - anybody who wishes to propose anything may do so, but we will analyze any proposal critically with an eye to ensure that it not only fits in with and compliments the rest of the game and is not a legal liability or outside the scope of our programming. The best way to become part of the team is to start contributing, and I can name a number of people on this forum who have so far only contributed criticism, but whose criticism has been very helpful and for which I am thankful that they are with us. We are open to the community, but we are also doing our best to be professional.

I can't speak for Heroes and Villains. I am not a member of the project, and, due to personal time commitments, I don't think I will be any time soon except perhaps as a very peripheral editor. I do feel safe in saying that leaving the Phoenix Project and starting Heroes and Villains was Golden Girl's decision, not ours, and that many of us, myself among them, are sad to see her go.

[John Phaser]

Sorry, I should have to precise : I know the Phoenix Project, I follow it since 2 months and there are links of all google docs in this new french community forum (too quickly created the last day of the game, with no real hosting*...) And I know how you have done all of this work : with the community.

I only have a (bad ?) feeling that make me say the lack of respect is elsewhere.

*It's a call ^^

[TonyV]

What can I say to the assembled french community ? Oh wait... now there are 2 Plan Z ? Like a "Plan ZZ" ? I hope there will not be more and more Plan Z... 'cause we could have a Plan Zzzzzzzzz...

I'm totally lost. And TonyV's explainations are peaceful but don't convince me.

"Plan Z" is just that--a plan to develop a successor to City of Heroes.  Try not to think of it as a specific product or team, but as an idea.

Or for a more concrete example, we had a "Plan C" or so, which was to have City of Heroes acquired by another company.  There were several companies talked about and even approached (we're still pursuing one now).  We didn't call each effort to approach each company some separate plan or name; we just lumped them all under "Plan C".  So kind of like we had Plan C: Valve, Plan C: Riot Games, Plan C: Disney, etc., we have Plan Z: The Phoenix Project and Plan Z: Heroes and Villains.

When there was only one project, people came to think of Plan Z and The Phoenix Project as being one and the same.  That's largely my fault, because to be honest, at the time I didn't really take into consideration multiple projects and even I've been guilty of informally referring to The Phoenix Project as just "Plan Z" for the sake of brevity.  But I never intended to convey that The Phoenix Project was the only project that we'd ever have or the only project that we'd ever support.  For that, I apologize.

Hope that helps, and sorry again for the confusion.

[John Phaser]

Actually, in the facts, "Phoenix City project" acquired the "Plan Z" term for most of us, I think. Whatever you do now. Don't try to correct it, even if it's true.

For me, Plan Z was a temporary name for a great adventure. It's seems more logical and more simple to explain there is a "Plan Y", different in methods but similar in goal to Plan Z. Hosting links and sub-forum add confusion to the existing confusion. When I connected here yesterday, I saw "Heroes and Vilains" link to website :

"Hey they already have a great forum in order to expose features ?! Oh great ! Hum... I don't regognize what is debated in Titan Network forums... And... wait... a forum...  recruiting volunteers too ?... What the hell... "

And I think many others visitors will have the same reaction again and again. With the first deception to see a divided force. I bet on it when I will explain it to french speaking players. I hope that you are right mixing 2 projects with different content in a same term. But it's not readable at all.

I want to add something : Is not it more reasonnable to wait that the Phoenix Project is in a stage more moved forward to envisage another project ?

[johnrobey]

I interrupt this thread with what I just posted here:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6373.msg82912.html#msg82912

[Obnoxiously quoting myself in full from the link posted above]
Side topic!  Apologies for breaking in here and if I'm using the wrong thread.  I am getting to the end of writing my Thank-You's to the many ezines covering City of Heroes and our efforts.  In doing so, I just found and posted to this:  http://www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/

It's my concern that open squabbling and charges of stealing IP and other "drama" will scuttle our efforts to get gamers and fans of superhero comicbooks (or should it be comicbook superheroes?) and seriously undermine our slim chances of TF Hail Mary's success.  In all seriousness, do we need to form a task force for Damage Control?

If you read the comments all the way through if makes us look really bad at a time when we need to be presenting a united and positive front.  Yes, I know we're all still grieving.  I can't count the times tears have leaked out as I read some article or went digging for some pertinent info.  While I can't prevent others from making negative comments (nor would I) I would like it impressed upon the community (Hello, TonyV if you're out there.) that even bereft and grieving, this sort of behavior and posting does NOT serve our cause at all.  I don't want anybody smacked or flamed, but everybody has to understand what is helpful, what is difference of opinion and polite dissent, and what is purely disruptive and undermining.  And that's all the rant I have to say about this.

On a more positive and constructive note--and really in the Other Ideas category--we should reach out additionally not just to gamers but also to fans of the comicbook and superheroes genres.

[TonyV]

While I can't prevent others from making negative comments (nor would I) I would like it impressed upon the community (Hello, TonyV if you're out there.) that even bereft and grieving, this sort of behavior and posting does NOT serve our cause at all.

I agree, which is why I'd like to reiterate:

Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.

Focus on positively supporting one project or the other or both, not negatively undermining one project or the other.

[Minotaur]

Well, all. You're Doing It Completely Wrong.

We have a community so large that we can afford to create a game in which *every human* can feel a gameplay similar to CoX, we'll have teams dedicated to invent *new input systems (Augmented Reality helmet & Force Feedback cape)* designed to go with the gameplay. The rules will be *a new set of gaming rules*, called *D609 (better than D20 !)*, the game will afford development of *a new programming language based on brainfuck*, which will run on *a new quantic hardware*, which *with all our crowd funding* will be *distributed freely to gamers in and around the world !*

*cough*

I'll register the domain and open the forum of "Plan µ: Idealists and Megalonaniacs"(sic) soon, keep in touch ;)

Congratulations, you've clearly just discovered a psychoactive substance unknown to medicine, where can I get some ?

[Felderburg]

I can understand the split. I was much more involved with Plan Z on Titan at its creation, but drifted away for my own reasons. Even then, I could see that Golden Girl had a very specific vision for Plan Z, and was trying very hard to get people to adhere to it. I think it's probably best for someone with such a specific vision to do their own thing, since they won't be able to work very well within a more open project.

That being said, I don't think the publicity is going very well for either group. Articles like this one: www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/ make things look bad, and make it seem as if Golden Girl is jumping on the marketing for her thing at the expense of Titan's. Additionally, the recruitment for Heroes & Villains is disingenuous. I don't know if anyone else received one, but I got an email directing me to the H&V forums. It said nothing of a split, and only said that it was the successor project, go to the website for info, etc. When I went there, I thought to myself "This doesn't look right..." I came to the Titan forums and discovered there had been a split. The email I received seemed to me very much a way to direct people straight to the H&V forums, skipping Titan completely.

[SithRose]

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project had pushed back our tentative demo and website release date to let people enjoy the holiday and play in the last week of COH. We felt that it was not fair to our volunteer contributors to demand that they spend their free time working on a demo or website over Thanksgiving and during the last week of City of Heroes. People need some time to mourn and adjust to our community's loss, and we wanted to respect time that before officially releasing publicity materials for The Phoenix Project.