A response to NCsoft

[Knightslayer]

Well, read through the threads, you'll see plenty of them. Also the whole, "Let's shame them using things from their culture" thing isn't exactly a shining moment I want people thinking about Americans. Regardless of of what people are assuming about NCSoft, they're in fact not out to get us. Their goal is not to insult everyone, it's to close a part of their own company. The truth is probably not a consolation, but they really became apathetic towards us once they decided to close the game. Just like a relationship you can't force someone to stay with you once they decide to leave. Once the "being sweet" thing doesn't work, shame and brute force never will.

I'm very clear on that, and have voiced the opinion several times - it's not malice on their part, it's pure business, all about the money - we're all basically walking little cartoon moneybags with a nice dollar sign on us, to them. 
That being said, people fight with the options they have left to them - it's either that or throw in the towel completely.
And I very much doubt anyone will ask you to participate in anything that you don't believe in, Void.

[Codewalker]

Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a unicorn, or corporate spy, etc.

There has been a bit of that, but to be fair, it's less about what people are saying rather and more about how they're saying it. This isn't directed at you void, but people showing up out of nowhere and posting things like, "You're all wrong, NCSoft has made their decision, give it up you losers!" in a "Save Paragon City!" forum isn't constructive, and they should expect to get jumped on by those who are trying to do just that. A post that started, "I think doing XYZ would be a better approach, here's why:" is much more welcome.

Posts that are obviously inflammatory and confrontational may get deleted. Those are a lot fewer than you might think. I'm more on the technical side myself, so I leave that to the other admins/moderators, but I do keep an eye on the moderation log. There really hasn't been a huge amount, and a chunk of them were a couple of folks with a thin skin and poor communication skills getting frustrated and deleting their own account. *shrug* Can't make everybody happy.

There was a bit of controversy due to the forum settings that allowed a thread starter to edit/delete replies to their thread. That wasn't intentional and those settings have since been corrected.

I'll say that the one thing Tony has done was to set up the filter -- the one and only word filter that we have. You're right that the paranoia was getting out of hand, so he put that in place as a reminder to people posting accusations like that, that maybe they should take a step back and think if they're really sure it's what they wanted to say. That kind of argument is not constructive either, and if the person they're replying too truly is a "unicorn", feeding them is the wrong approach anyway.

You keep calling CoH "our game", but it isn't, it's theirs. You don't own anything here. They decided to close it, and you can't force them to do anything.

That's exactly that point that we disagree on. Yes, the service belongs to NCSoft. However, the game is much more than that, and is the part that NCSoft owns, plus the collective creative works that all of the players have added to it, plus the community that has grown up around it. They may own the land they're renting us, but the don't own the house that we built on it.

Legally they may be within their rights to kick us off, tear down the house, and give us the pieces of wood, but that doesn't mean it's ethically right of them to do so. And while we can't force them to do anything, we can encourage them to do the right thing, and sell the land for a fair price to someone who will use it for something other than a parking lot.

[QuantumHero]

We have never desputed their right to make a business decision (regardless of how wrong-headed and abrupt it appears to be)
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What we are trying to do is get them to sell, rent, lease, or release the IP.  And yes we are trying to reach them on their own cultural wavelength...and every other "channel" they might be listening on.

We know damn well all possibilities of selling the IP are not exhausted and nor are methods to ensure a more limited survival transition.

Newsflash - a scenario that allows us unmolested operation of private servers is not neccesarilly tied to purchase/lease of the IP for further development. 

MMOs are a developing field with a barely mapped legal landscape...other MMOs have gone down but NcSoft has a particularlly ugly record in this regard, including a rather expensive convinction for fraud.  So if we are considering playing hard ball but hoping not to need it...there is a reason.  What we are not going to do is quit.  We bought disks and paid sub fees, we made artistic contributions to this world, we are a community...so yes we would like to at least *try* to survive on a bloody iceburg or build some lifeboats rather then placidly wait to go down with a ship that they have deiberately chosen to sink with a rather large number of souls on board.

[TonyV]

You guys have been posting over on the CoH forums for people to come here and participate. This draws attention. When people do come here, it seems at least a few people have seen the unrealistic way of going about things, and have made comments. Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a unicorn, or corporate spy, etc.

A few comments about this:

First of all, if someone comes here and says, "I think you're going about this wrong," I might disagree, but that's not shutting them down.  I never promised to agree with everything that everyone says.  But if someone comes here and says, "You can't win, give up," then we really don't need that kind of "participation," because that's not participation.  They're welcome to share memories and keep in touch, but I've always been up-front about the purpose of this particular forum: to save Paragon City.  "Give up!" is about the only thing that I find completely nonconstructive towards that goal.

Second of all, just like on the official forums, you have a very wide range of people, personalities, and opinions here.  Add to that the stress that a lot of people are under, and sometimes things that are a bit on the side of rude or obnoxious will be said.  That doesn't make these rude or obnoxious forums, it makes them public forums.  I have, and will continue, to nix things that I think are particularly insulting, mostly racial insults, but you can't expect to have any kind of open discussion and expect never to have someone say, "You're wrong and kind of dumb for thinking that."  If you look through the posts, you'll see that even I am subjected to that now and then myself, and unless I feel that someone is being particularly trollish, I don't moderate them.

Third of all, if you think that the way we're going about things is unrealistic, I sure would like to know what you would have us do instead.  I'm not being facetious.  I am trying to do the best that I can to drive us towards our ultimate goal, saving City of Heroes.  I gathered everyone together, demonstrated our numbers, provided specific benefits to NCsoft for helping us to save City of Heroes, kept my ear to the rail on things going on behind the scenes, and as NCsoft has dug in deeper, stepped up pressure.  What exactly do you think we should be doing instead?  If the answer is, "give up," then I'll forewarn you that that isn't an option.  If you have a different answer, I'm all ears.

[dior]

NCSofts Mission Statement made me crease up.

1) Shoot self in foot.
2) Hop around going ow.ow.ow
3) Shoot self in other foot
4) Throw self on sword.

I have never ever seen such a contradictory Mission Statement in my life - EVERYTHING they have done thusfar bears no resemblance to what their statement says.

[downix]

Legally they may be within their rights to kick us off, tear down the house, and give us the pieces of wood, but that doesn't mean it's ethically right of them to do so. And while we can't force them to do anything, we can encourage them to do the right thing, and sell the land for a fair price to someone who will use it for something other than a parking lot.

Actually they are not even doing that, they are kicking us off, then burning down the house and all that is within it. We do not get the opportunity to save what we have built, even if in pieces.

[eabrace]

Or, to put it in terms of land-grabbing in Texas ('cause that's where the servers are):

NCsoft leased us the mineral rights to the property.  After we built our well, drilled, and hit a deposit, they're now denying us access to the property with the intent of just capping the well.

If only we could set up a mailbox and have our mail delivered there long enough to claim legal ownership of the property...

[Knightslayer]

I have yet to see a "tantrum" from Tony, or anything remotely resembling one.

On the contrary, when we all first came together here there were quite a few people advocating much more aggressive actions, similar to the EVE (in game) riots, and possibly ME3's Hold the Line action (not sure how they went about it though, maybe someone can shed some light on that).
It was Tony that told everyone to chill, and to try to reach an understanding based on courtesy and respect.
Which makes it all the more sad that it fell on deaf ears the way that it did.

[Rae]

I just try to remember that we're all here for the same reason. This is a forum called Save Paragon City, and we've all got at least one thing in common. That we're trying to Save Paragon City.

I like being in a place where everyone has got the same destination in mind, even if we're all trying to get there via different routes.

[Dollhouse]

They shut down a profitable division and then ignored options to offload it. That is mishandling shareholder value. Over and above the game itself, this is not acceptable corporate behavior.

I have to respectfully disagree. Unless I am very much mistaken in my speculation here, the shutdown of Paragon Studios and removal of all CoH IP-related products from the open market was very specifically and deliberately done to destroy the value of those assets.  This action will create a capital loss on NCSoft's balance sheet...and that will act as an offset to the considerable capital gains realized from the GW2 go-live, etc.

That offset is virtually certain to represent several times as much revenue as would sale of the CoH. That's because NCSoft's valuation of the IP will be several times higher than its actual market value (that is, what anyone was actually going to be able to offer for it). The formulae that corporations employ to determine these valuations-for-tax-purposes are complicated...and more than a bit absurd. But corporations have been getting away with these kind of tax shenanigans for decades in the US (where part of NCSoft operates), and I suspect in Korea, as well. It's a choice between probably something like $1 million USD for selling the IP ...and about five times that for the tax offset of removing it from the market as a capital loss (just speculating on those numbers...but the ratio is pretty standard), No competent executive would fail to pick the latter option.

The people who made this decision aren't mishandling shareholder value, they're attempting to protect it. It hasn't worked (although NCSoft stock DID jump up briefly after the announcement). But that's more a matter of the much larger slices of NCSoft's cashflow pie underperforming than it is with anything CoH-related.

Bottom line: it's just a matter of bottom line...and that's why we're very likely fighting a losing battle on the "release the IP" front. Pirate servers and/or Plan Z are our real hope, folks.

[Codewalker]

(note that these numbers are for example only, they don't represent the real IP value. The proportions should be similar however)

I don't think you're wrong about corporate thinking, but the thing about the numbers is that a tax offset of $5 million doesn't represent $5 million in your pocket. The exact amount depends on how much other income you have, what the tax rate is, and many other factors. So it may only end up being $1m less in taxes that they'd have to pay by writing it off. Even assuming their tax department is completely incompetent and they don't get any other breaks, it would definitely be less than $2m.

So that grossly inflated value of the assets -- which companies definitely do (I had an argument about intangibles with an accounting professor once...) -- may not represent quite as large of a hurdle for selling the IP as it would first seem.

[epawtows]

That offset is virtually certain to represent several times as much revenue as would sale of the CoH. That's because NCSoft's valuation of the IP will be several times higher than its actual market value (that is, what anyone was actually going to be able to offer for it). The formulae that corporations employ to determine these valuations-for-tax-purposes are complicated...and more than a bit absurd. But corporations have been getting away with these kind of tax shenanigans for decades in the US (where part of NCSoft operates), and I suspect in Korea, as well. It's a choice between probably something like $1 million USD for selling the IP ...and about five times that for the tax offset of removing it from the market as a capital loss (just speculating on those numbers...but the ratio is pretty standard), No competent executive would fail to pick the latter option.

Could we play a waiting game with them?  I.E;  form Titan Studios (or whatever) and start working on Plan Z, and in six months to a year make an offer for CoH's by-then-long-dead carcass?  We could use the argument "Look at how much progress we're making on our game;  if we finish, the CoH IP will be completely worthless, why not sell it while you can still get something for it?"   And then we figure out if we want to restart it (which may or may not be technically feasible, depending on how documented the code is and if any of the Devs can be found), re-work Plan Z into CoH2, or whatever.  Not that it's possible to call something like this a 'plan', because there is no way to know in advance if they'll sell.

 

[Segev]

Remember a couple weeks ago when we heard there were "sticky issues" that were being hammered out? I suspect many of them had little to nothing to do with actual amounts of money changing hands. Things having to do primarily with the bureaucratic entanglements that have to be unwound to separate a sub-company from its parent may simply have been more than NCSoft was willing to do due to feeling it was too much effort for too little gain.

IF that is the case, THEN our efforts to make NOT doing it painful can have at least no smaller a chance of working than we ever felt we had.

[corvus1970]

On the contrary, when we all first came together here there were quite a few people advocating much more aggressive actions, similar to the EVE (in game) riots, and possibly ME3's Hold the Line action (not sure how they went about it though, maybe someone can shed some light on that).
It was Tony that told everyone to chill, and to try to reach an understanding based on courtesy and respect.
Which makes it all the more sad that it fell on deaf ears the way that it did.

Exactly!

Have I seen "tantrums" from other posters here? Yes. It is a public message forum after all.

From Tony? Never.

[laufeyjarson]

(note that these numbers are for example only, they don't represent the real IP value. The proportions should be similar however)

I don't think you're wrong about corporate thinking, but the thing about the numbers is that a tax offset of $5 million doesn't represent $5 million in your pocket. The exact amount depends on how much other income you have, what the tax rate is, and many other factors. So it may only end up being $1m less in taxes that they'd have to pay by writing it off. Even assuming their tax department is completely incompetent and they don't get any other breaks, it would definitely be less than $2m.

So that grossly inflated value of the assets -- which companies definitely do (I had an argument about intangibles with an accounting professor once...) -- may not represent quite as large of a hurdle for selling the IP as it would first seem.

The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.

[Mister Bison]

The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.

De wo actually which subsidiary owns the IP ?

[Dollhouse]

The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.

If by "OP" you're referring to the author of the post to which Codewalker replied, that would be me...and no I didn't. In fact, I specifically referred to the US subsidiary, then mentioned that it was just my suspicion that Korean corporate tax laws allowed similar valuation shenanigans.

Codewalker brings up the significant point that the net gain via capital loss offset isn't the full amount of that valuation. though. That's an important consideration, and may indicate why NCSoft was bothering any negotiation at all. If they can only get away with a valuation that will produce an actual net monetary gain at or slightly larger than the IP's value, then they'd have been receptive. Or at least negotiating in good faith...  the fact that the negotiations failed tells me that one reason may well be that they can indeed get away with an asset valuation for capital loss that significantly exceeds the actual market value of the IP.

[Manga]

Void Hunter,

The issue that is upsetting TonyV, and me, and many others about NCSoft's behavior is that they are not even acknowledging our presence.  We're making serious, well thought of business offers, and to NCSoft so far, we may as well be invisible.  Same goes for other companies making serious offers - they may as well be invisible, too.

And then we have some people who say NCSoft has the right to shut down CoH, and do so in peace without anyone so much as speaking to them about it.  That the only option is we should shut up and accept it.  Or that by speaking up, we're somehow tarnishing your reputation as a gamer or as an American.

To those people, with all due respect, I say, YOU shaddup.  You're not helping, nobody cares about devil's advocate posts, and this isn't about YOU.  I am still willing to try to negotiate with NCSoft, and I have as much right to do so as they do to quietly shut down CoH.  If they ignore me, this is important enough that I have the right to do anything I can to get their attention.  I've had enough of quietly watching bad things happen, so if you want to try and stop me, go ahead.  I won't make it easy for you.

[Colette]

While NC-Soft does have the legal right to shut off the game, the way they have handled it has been inexcusable.

1. They shut down the systems to subscribe and to buy points without prior notice.
2. They presented "issue 24" on coming attractions and the Beta server, thus convincing the playerbase that the game's immediate future was secure and their subscription investment safe.
3. They announced the closure less than a week after a new powerset "Nature Mastery" was put up for sale with great fanfare.

NC-Soft has acted in bad faith.

Now we, the playerbase, have no legal recourse against them for these shenanigans. However we, as a community, do have the right to say that we no longer feel the standard MMO contract is equitable. I, for example, enjoy various classic videogames, and the price I paid years ago continues to pay off. Heck, one of them (X-Com!) has a sequel coming out this very month.

I've spent much more for CoH than any other game, and once the servers shut down, I won't even be able to toy with the costume creator. I now plan to not spend money on any future MMO ever, with the exception of CoH-2. And I intend to tell everyone in the gamng community how I feel about MMOs as a business model, and particularly NC-Soft. And there are just over 20,000 gamers who agree with me. And counting.

So in a real sense, NC-Soft is not merely jeopardizing its own future, but the future of the entire genre.

The majority opinion in this gaming community may be summed up neatly as: f___ this s___! And we have every reason to believe anyone who posts directly contrary opinions here are troublemakers who need to be ignored and run off.

[Segev]

Forever? No. But generally speaking, one expects these sorts of things to venture into metaphorical old age, where they become doddering, fondly tended to by a dwindling number of family members as the rest move on, until it no longer can sustain itself and the bittersweet "it was fun while it lasted, thanks everybody" closing is understandable to all and not objected to by quite so huge a number of still-avid fans.

Also, if the COMPANY has been planning ahead, it may well be that it ends...but only as "CoH2" or the like replaces it. The next generation replacing the last. Evolution into new things.

It's the suddenness and the fact that this game is still vibrant and ALIVE that's so shocking.