Author Topic: False Advertising  (Read 6318 times)

Codewalker

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False Advertising
« on: September 25, 2012, 04:58:16 PM »
Something that might bite NCSoft in the ass, should there be any legal action at some point:



Play free forever, huh? I don't see any fine print at the bottom to clarify that forever only means until they decide otherwise.

Note: This image was taken today, over 3 weeks after the shutdown announcement.

Cende

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 06:41:05 PM »
Unfortunately, there's a something called the "reasonable person standard" -

Would a reasonable person expect to *actually* be able to play "forever," or would they expect that, eventually, the game would close and the servers shut down?

Under that standard, "Forever" is not actionable. It's a useful legal loophole that's used in marketing and advertising quite a bit to allow the standard hyperbole that advertisers love to toss into their campaigns.

Aggelakis

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
They mean "forever" as in "for as long as the game exists". No, it's not false advertising.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 06:48:48 PM »
Fascinating how they can get away with that, but McDonalds can still get sued for someone burning themselves with coffee, even though the cup said "Caution, HOT" on it.

Aggelakis

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »
Fascinating how they can get away with that, but McDonalds can still get sued for someone burning themselves with coffee, even though the cup said "Caution, HOT" on it.
The lady got THIRD DEGREE BURNS in mere MOMENTS from dropping a cup of coffee on her. McDonalds has settled **700** or more cases involving too-hot coffee. They kept their coffee **20 degrees** above industry standards. Also note, the lady did not sue until McDonalds gave her no choice.
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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 06:57:16 PM »
I think this is considered puffery. It's akin to "Home of the World's Best Hamburger!"

More about puffery.


TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 06:59:45 PM »
I think this is considered puffery. It's akin to "Home of the World's Best Hamburger!"

TBH it should probably be illegal.

If I tried to sell someone magic beans, I'd get thrown in jail for con-artistry. If a business does it, they get patted on the back for good marketing strategies.

Olantern

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 07:15:39 PM »
What Cende and others said.  I've previously explained extensively (over in "Legal Considerations") about how things like the reasonable person standard and the difficulty of obtaining evidence of intent to deceive make a successful fraud or fraud-like action (including false advertising claims under the Lanham Act) highly unlikely.

Even weeks after it was first brought up, I still see people treating the idea of suing NCSoft for fraud as some sort of magical solution to all our problems.  It isn't.  Our goal is to keep CoH alive without getting ourselves into trouble.  This probably requires us to pry the IP out of NCSoft's grip and get it into the hands of someone who'll keep the game alive.  That's it.  Suing NCSoft just isn't the right tool for finishing that job.  Here's what I said about the issue in a PM to someone on the subject of potential actions:

"With all [the stuff I discussed in 'Legal Considerations' about how hard it would be to sue successfully], I think litigation just isn't the right option for this problem.  To use an elaborate metaphor, our ultimate goal is to pound a nail into a wall (i.e., keep the game alive in some form).  Litigation, in this scenario, is like a rotary saw.  It's really, really easy to hurt yourself with it if you're not extremely careful.  Moreover, all the indignation in the world, no matter how righteous and how rightful, can't turn that saw into a hammer."

In other words, you have every right to be upset and feel that NCSoft treated you badly.  But, as legitimate as those feelings are, that doesn't automatically translate into the ability to sue them.

***

Unrelated trivia point: When I was in college in Albuquerque, I lived near the McDonald's in the famous coffee case and used to go through the drive-thru all the time.  This was during the period when the woman got injured.  I never did order coffee there, though.

Codewalker

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 07:49:53 PM »
I wasn't suggesting that anyone sue over it. Only to add it to the pile of "bad faith" evidence should it someday be necessary.

The point wasn't that it was being advertised like that, but rather that it still is. While it's not necessarily reasonable to assume that forever means literally forever, I do believe it's reasonable to expect "forever" to be longer than "2 months".

I'd also assert that 3 weeks is a reasonable amount of time for a company to remove such advertisements from a medium that it has complete control over.

That and I wanted to post it just for the bitter irony.

The-Hunter-JLJ

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 08:21:10 PM »
"irony can be pretty ironic sometimes" and all that?

Codewalker

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 08:22:37 PM »
It's like a wedding on your raining day.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 08:25:33 PM »
What Cende and others said.  I've previously explained extensively (over in "Legal Considerations") about how things like the reasonable person standard and the difficulty of obtaining evidence of intent to deceive make a successful fraud or fraud-like action (including false advertising claims under the Lanham Act) highly unlikely.

As I implied... it needs to be looked into again. And I'd have that opinion whether or not NC had dropped a bomb on us. Marketing is completely out of control. It has utterly killed the "invisible hand" that used to regulate the economy.

Segev

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 08:48:02 PM »
No, regulation kills the invisible hand. Marketing can do some interesting things, but ultimately, it is just going to hasten the reactions of that invisible hand.

The worst product in the world will sell great under a slick marketing campaign, but it will run out of suckers all the faster because so many will have tried it. And so the invisible hand squashes it like the bug it is.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 11:29:52 PM »
No, regulation kills the invisible hand. Marketing can do some interesting things, but ultimately, it is just going to hasten the reactions of that invisible hand.

The worst product in the world will sell great under a slick marketing campaign, but it will run out of suckers all the faster because so many will have tried it. And so the invisible hand squashes it like the bug it is.

Maybe true in some circumstances, but for most of the things that I can at least afford, I haven't seen that happening. Convenience or just plain fooling people seems to work quite well, and I don't see the elimination of regulation changing that. It could overall make everything less expensive (though you then end up with things like building the Titanic with too few lifeboats), but beyond that? We all are forced to buy products now that break in a year (because it's all that is available) vs. in the past, products of similar function that could last for decades or more. And as for the entertainment industry... well... I think the writing is plainly on the wall for that one.  :P

Victoria Victrix

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 11:38:47 PM »
Maybe true in some circumstances, but for most of the things that I can at least afford, I haven't seen that happening. Convenience or just plain fooling people seems to work quite well, and I don't see the elimination of regulation changing that. It could overall make everything less expensive (though you then end up with things like building the Titanic with too few lifeboats), but beyond that? We all are forced to buy products now that break in a year (because it's all that is available) vs. in the past, products of similar function that could last for decades or more. And as for the entertainment industry... well... I think the writing is plainly on the wall for that one.  :P

Having lived longer than most of you, I agree with Tim.  However this is a political discussion and probably doesn't belong here--which was why I nuked the rancor in some of my threads when it was clear it was no longer about saving the game and entirely about politics.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 11:43:25 PM »
Having lived longer than most of you, I agree with Tim.  However this is a political discussion and probably doesn't belong here--which was why I nuked the rancor in some of my threads when it was clear it was no longer about saving the game and entirely about politics.

Understandable, and accepted. Unfortunately, considering what is going on in the overall picture here, we're bound to run into some pretty serious political issues. The rights of the business vs. the rights of the consumer is a pretty big one, as is the reality that the governments need to start (legally, as well as metaphysically (not sure if that's the right word... spiritually?)) looking at the rights of virtual communities. Because while they've all jumped on the bandwagon at looking at corporations' rights in cyberspace (SOPA/PIPA, anyone?) nobody seems to be very concerned about the consumers.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 12:00:46 AM »
Understandable, and accepted. Unfortunately, considering what is going on in the overall picture here, we're bound to run into some pretty serious political issues. The rights of the business vs. the rights of the consumer is a pretty big one, as is the reality that the governments need to start (legally, as well as metaphysically (not sure if that's the right word... spiritually?)) looking at the rights of virtual communities. Because while they've all jumped on the bandwagon at looking at corporations' rights in cyberspace (SOPA/PIPA, anyone?) nobody seems to be very concerned about the consumers.

Again, I agree with you.  Perhaps it would be a good idea to open a thread about the larger picture over in one of Titan's other forums.
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Twisted Toon

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 12:01:32 AM »
...which was why I nuked the rancor...

Does that quoted segment mean you play SW:TOR? :)

More likely it just means you occasionally like to watch Star Wars... :p
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 12:05:28 AM »
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: False Advertising
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 12:07:30 AM »
SW:TOR? :)

Speaking of false advertising... LOL

Again, I agree with you.  Perhaps it would be a good idea to open a thread about the larger picture over in one of Titan's other forums.

Anywhere specific you had in mind? Not sure where - the 'Sunset project' may or may not be relevant... will probably only become relevant if NC decides to go ape over it.