State of the Titan

[TonyV]

Can we just limit our posts to being positive? If someone reads something that's looks as though it's out of line, maybe send them a PM. No need to distract from the status reports.

Agreed.  I see the disagreement here, but I don't think our goals are at odds with each other.  Everyone please take a chill pill and stop with the snarkiness and name-calling.

Edit:  Everyone please take another chill pill.  Medically speaking, you can actually take up to six per day before you run any risk of permanent chillbite.

[Joshex]

Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.

As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).

By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.

Oh the dreaded weapon that NCSoft fears in the backs of their minds, they don't know if we know that we could legally do it, they are worried about shame because in their culture once a decision is made it's shameful to change your mind.

What is their worry? that we'll remake the game with massive graphical updates as well as other things and it will become more popular than ever and might even make it to their shores, thus shaming them for dropping it.

Whats the weapon? NFPO (Not For Profit Organization), .ORG, Freeware, donations welcomed they help keep the game alive!

basically you can't legally sue anyone for stealing your concept if they create it themselves and aren't charging any money for it. freeware is the legal way to pawn NCSoft in this case if they should make the error of canning CoH.

Freeware just means you don't charge for the game itself, something like the paragon market would still be legal cause you could be charging for new art/features that were entirely created by the plan Z team.

also donations are the other legal way for cash to flow in.

also you could sell the old content by saying "donate so much money to Phoenix city and you get the (enter content here) (example: statesman's cape costume part) for free!"

[TonyV]

basically you can't legally sue anyone for stealing your concept if they create it themselves and aren't charging any money for it. freeware is the legal way to pawn NCSoft in this case if they should make the error of canning CoH.
...
also you could sell the old content by saying "donate so much money to Phoenix city and you get the (enter content here) (example: statesman's cape costume part) for free!"

This is not true.  Infringement is infringement; it doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit.

[chaparralshrub]

...


I'm going to risk moderator action by bringing up something from a closed thread. However, given what I have to say, I feel not only justified, but safe.

No worries, it sounds like you found the post that other folks are referring to.  I'm going to lock the thread because I don't want this rumor getting legs.  Some former Paragon staffers got hired by Cryptic.  That's not surprising, since I know that some Paragon Studios people have kept in touch with their Cryptic colleagues over the years.  For what it's worth though, I have a pretty good idea of how many were hired on, and it is an extremely underwhelming number--definitely not panic-worthy.  To those that did get hired on by Cryptic, I wish them nothing but the best of luck (and no, I'm not being facetious); a lot of really cool and talented people work there.  And hey!  Food on the table!

Hear hear!

I have to say that I'm more loyal to the devs who gave us the wonderful game that is CoH than I am to CoH itself. Why? Because the devs are real people with real lives, and CoH is, ultimately, just a game. And, because I know that these people are creative people who made great games. After all, they made CoH. There is every reason to believe that they can - and will - do it again.

So, good luck Paragon - wherever it is that you wind up! My personal hope is that it will be CoH II, but if it's not, I'm sure it will be very good nonetheless, and you have my customer loyalty. You've earned it. Sorry I couldn't have been at the dinner, but I live on the other side of the U.S.

[Joshex]

This is not true.  Infringement is infringement; it doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit.

oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.

[Osborn]

oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.

Fair Use protects you/us in cases of satire, parody or other journalistic and historical uses (such as reviews). It doesn't protect you from, effectively, creating a competing product, regardless of if you make profit or not on it.

Fair Use is there to protect our free speech to make fun of or negatively review a product in a way a company would otherwise (without this law protecting us) shut down (though that hasn't stopped companies from trying to shut down negative press with copywrite lawsuits, in either case). But, on the other hand it doesn't give us any legal license to pirate the game (even if in a very round-about way).

There has been several cases where a company has turned a 'blind eye' to this sort of thing (Mother 3's translation project comes to mind, NoA's staff just sorta smiled and winked knowingly in Tomato's direction), but that's exactly what it is: turning a blind eye towards the issue.

There's a good reason to assume NCSoft will not be so... generous... with their property.

Before we jump on the 'let's protect it for historical reasons!' bandwagon, I'm pretty sure you need the proper fancy pants and fancy hats to be qualified to make that claim, which the most of us (probably) don't have.

I'm pretty sure the case is that Paragon Studios owns about nothing here. Cryptic owned the engine, but they've leased it indefinitely to NCSoft, and I'm sure they'd probably lease it similarly to a new company (though maybe not? But that wouldn't stop a CoH2 from happening, either way). NCSoft though owns the IP (the actual 'setting' and all that), or we wouldn't be trying to buy it from them.

If Paragon Studios already owned the IP, we wouldn't be facing a shutdown at all, because Paragon Studios thought the game was doing great (and in fact was rolling out updates to it right up until the bell tolled).

[TonyV]

oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.

Basically: The characters we've created are ours.  (Unless, of course, you're already infringing on someone else's property, such as creating a Spiderman clone.)  But the characters, names, stories, etc. in the game are NCsoft's.  So we can't legally create a game with Statesman, Positron, Synapse, Atlas Park, Kings Row, the Freakalympics, the Wheel of Destiny, etc.

However: You cannot copyright or patent the rules of a game.  So the mechanics and whatnot could be duplicated.  Some common words for power such as "Teleport" would probably be okay, though if you pick non-generic words and phrases such as, I dunno, "Sky Splitter," you might start getting into dicey territory.

[Osborn]

However: You cannot copyright or patent the rules of a game.  So the mechanics and whatnot could be duplicated.  Some common words for power such as "Teleport" would probably be okay, though if you pick non-generic words and phrases such as, I dunno, "Sky Splitter," you might start getting into dicey territory.

That's not entirely true all the time too, because the law loves being inconsistent so sometimes you can patent things like "targeting arrows that point in a direction" or "characters can go insane" and get away with it if the guy at the patent office or a lawyer is being directly controlled by Beelzebub that day or not.

Whether or not that'll hold up in a court or not is to be seen, but a lot of companies just forgo the process of litigation and just pay the patent unicorn's bridge fee.

Edit: This isn't meant to be discouraging, just that making a game requires a crazy amount of legal effort that I'm not envious of you guys for tackling.

Edit 2: That term's being censored so if the link doesn't work, sorry?

[Segev]

Basically, "Plan Z" is a last resort not because it is in any way a threat to NCSoft, but because it's the hardest and most difficult-to-make-work option to keep the community together and build a new game that has stuff the players of the old one loved.


If NCSoft will part with the IP, Cryptic all but certainly would allow for Paragon or whoever got it to license the engine. If Paragon can get the IP and the rights to the code, then CoH is pretty well saved. They'll just need to reorganize and make sure all the hardware's in place (again).

[ArianaLady]

I have been despondent since the notice of closing down a game we have played for over 6 years and made many lifetime friends. It is so encouraging to know there is this kind of fight going on.  Keep it up!  Please!  If only Tony W (Pumbumbler/Selene) could join the fight. He was one of the oldest players and he left due to the change in management.  He would fight the good fight now with us.

So, how much does it cost to buy a game that is just being "closed down"?  I am unemployed (after being layed off from a bought-out company), but if I hit the lottery, I surely will make them an offer. 

Thanks so much for all your efforts.  I will also join this...
ArianaLady

[DrakeGrimm]

I have been despondent since the notice of closing down a game we have played for over 6 years and made many lifetime friends. It is so encouraging to know there is this kind of fight going on.  Keep it up!  Please!  If only Tony W (Pumbumbler/Selene) could join the fight. He was one of the oldest players and he left due to the change in management.  He would fight the good fight now with us.

So, how much does it cost to buy a game that is just being "closed down"?  I am unemployed (after being layed off from a bought-out company), but if I hit the lottery, I surely will make them an offer. 

Thanks so much for all your efforts.  I will also join this...
ArianaLady

Negotiations are already underway, or so we're told. The details of said negotiations are, of course, strictly confidential. Which means nobody involved can give us any kind of information about what's going on. Sadly.

[Victoria Victrix]

Recap:

NCSoft is definitely shutting down the servers Nov 30, as of most recent announcement
NCSoft is giving refunds on remaining time paid, and in some cases, Paragon Points purchased.
NCSoft has laid Zwilliger off and removed him as Community Manager on the official boards
The Official Boards will remain up as long as the servers are.
NCSoft directs anyone who bought time cards or boxed sets after Black Friday to seek a refund from the merchant same were purchased from.
NCSoft will be running events for the next two months, ending with the Rikti Invasion.

Paragon Studios is in negotiations with NCSoft which include purchasing the IP (City of Heroes/Villains).  Brian Clayton, former studio manager for Paragon Studios is in charge of those negotiations.  They are evidently sticky.  Substantial potential investors are encouraged to contact him.  You may do so via Tony V or myself, but be aware, we're talking the price of a nice house in a good neighborhood in San Francisco here.  Brian was encouraging at the Dev Dinner a couple days ago.  I at least expect him to touch base with me late Sunday night, even if he hasn't got any news yet.

When Cryptic sold City to NCSoft, they either completely sold the game engine as well, or leased it indefinitely (I have heard conflicting reports from people who should know).  In either case, a solid reply came from Cryptic after an inquiry that (if leased) the lease goes with the IP.

As yet no other party has come forward publicly indicating they are interested in purchasing the IP from NCSoft.

Plan A is to convince NCSoft it is in their best interest to sell the IP and not sit on it.
Plan Z (court of last resort, because it WILL take at least two years and could take much longer) is to code, from scratch, a new superhero game into which we can port our old characters.

And that is your Friday night recap. 

[DrakeGrimm]

As always, VV, thank you kindly.

[NecrotechMaster]

sounds like the gears are turning still which is good news

the negotiations being sticky are prolly what has made them so slow with the progress but at least they havent been shot down yet

[Tanglefoe]

I'm not totally discouraged yet because you gotta remember the servers are owned by NCSoft, and then there's the store, our accounts, and a ton of other stuff.  If there are negociations for a buyout, they would have to figure out how to move all sorts of things.  It could take several months, even after Nov 30th.

And I really have to think that if they weren't interested in selling, they would have said so in the beginning.

[emu265]

I'm not totally discouraged yet because you gotta remember the servers are owned by NCSoft, and then there's the store, our accounts, and a ton of other stuff.  If there are negociations for a buyout, they would have to figure out how to move all sorts of things.  It could take several months, even after Nov 30th.

And I really have to think that if they weren't interested in selling, they would have said so in the beginning.

Yeah, listen to this guy.  Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing.  If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it.  With that comes the other companies those are run through.  It's a mess.  So the timeframe here isn't our enemy.  They're working on it.

[zoser]

[TimtheEnchanter]

Yeah, listen to this guy.  Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing.  If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it.  With that comes the other companies those are run through.  It's a mess.  So the timeframe here isn't our enemy.  They're working on it.

Well, the server software and the DB's would be a part of it. The hardware, probably not. But I don't see why that would slow the negotiations. The HOW can all get ironed out after the fact.

[Segev]

It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.

[DrakeGrimm]

It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.

This. $deity save me from the lawyers. x.x