Author Topic: State of the Titan  (Read 106619 times)

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #300 on: September 29, 2012, 03:32:39 PM »
Normally I'd agree with you, DrakeGrimm, but in this case, it may not be the lawyers' fault. In any project, the actual implementation requires some nitty-gritty decisions that are easy to broad-concept understand, but which the details make very tricky. Modularity is almost always, in the final run-time, less efficient than unified systems, but those unified systems are a LOT harder to take apart and modify. This could - and I am just guessing - be the case here.

Olantern

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #301 on: September 29, 2012, 03:59:15 PM »
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.

It's undoubtedly legal stuff causing the hangups, but the issue Segev mentions is only one of a host of them.  Remember the analogy of property rights to a bundle of sticks and the idea of limits and conditions on sales from the Legal Considerations thread.

The parties' goals are clear.  NCSoft wants to wash its hands of the game entirely and not have the hassle and responsibility of running it any more while getting the highest possible price for the property.  Paragon wants the right to develop the game on its own terms without NCSoft's interference while paying the lowest possible cost.

Those simple goals turn hydralike when you start thinking through things that could happen in the future.  This is what contracts are about- covering contingencies.  If I had to guess, and I do, things the parties need to decide include:

- How much is this thing really worth, anyway?  I don't see Blue Book values for MMO's quoted very often.
- Once the parties agree on a value, is it calculated in dollars or won?  What if the exchange rate fluctuates violently once agreement is reached?
- How long does Paragon have to pay?  If it pays over time, does NCSoft retain a mortgage-like interest in the property?
- If "all rights" to the game are sold, can NCSoft still mention it in non-CoH advertising (e.g., "We sponsored the development of the innovative City of Heroes in 2004" in a Blade & Soul ad)?
- How long does NCSoft have to get rid of all references to and mentions of CoH in its websites and other materials (many are gone, but what about those pictures of Statesman)?
- Since the "new" Paragon hasn't formed yet, what happens if the parties agree to a sale, then it never forms?  Does the IP revert to NCSoft?  To all the potential devs as a collection of individuals?  Somewhere else?
- If someone sues Paragon and/or NCSoft about CoH, who defends the case?  If the plaintiff wins, who pays?  Does the kind of claim matter?  (This is one reason I'm so touchy about people saying they want to sue.  No one wants to buy a lawsuit.)
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?
- How can NCSoft be sure its ex-employees aren't using proprietary information in maintaining an NCSoft-less CoH?  And if it can't, how much more should it charge to release the IP?  (This is the issue Segev raised.)
- If either party breaches the contract, what should the damages be?  In what forum should disputes be resolved (an especially sticky issue in an international negotiation like this)?

... and so on.  Every one of those terms (plus a zillion others, I'm sure) affects the price of the property and one or both parties' willingness to deal.  Of course, on top of all that, there are still the usual hassles of any negotiation, like the cultural issues others have already mentioned, too.  I don't envy the people working on this.  It looks simple to us from the outside, but there are as many potential issues as there are potential problems going forward.  That's why I'm being extremely patient and hoping both parties can get what they want.  That is the way that we will get what we want, too.

All that is out of our hands.  The best thing we can do is to continue to demonstrate that the game has a dedicated fan base that makes it both worth selling and a good buy.  Keep it up, everyone!

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #302 on: September 29, 2012, 04:04:05 PM »
As usual, Olantern pretty much nails it. Good show!
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Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #303 on: September 29, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »
I want to thank Olantern for once again providing his expert analysis, even if he has to guess a lot. I also want to apologize, but this sort of stuff is exactly the kind of puzzle I like to prize apart and find solutions to. I know what I'm about to engage in is mostly fun-and-gamesmanship, but I am going to give my thoughts and inexpert suggested solution to each of the issues he raises, here.

The parties' goals are clear.  NCSoft wants to wash its hands of the game entirely and not have the hassle and responsibility of running it any more while getting the highest possible price for the property.  Paragon wants the right to develop the game on its own terms without NCSoft's interference while paying the lowest possible cost.
This much is cool. Everyone involved wants the same overall end result. We are allies in this, and that is probably the most important step to finding any possibility of a mutually-agreeable situation.

I will add that an additional goal is that neither party wants future legal entanglements or arguments over this. When it's done, they truly want to be done and not have to argue over whether one side or the other is unfairly using, profiting from, or otherwise involving something to which the other has rights. (At least, I assume this is a goal all parties have; it seems reasonable if generally-unspoken.)

-How much is this thing really worth, anyway?  I don't see Blue Book values for MMO's quoted very often.
This is a hard one. I don't really have a way of making even a mildly educated guess on it, but I know it involves projected profits from the continued running of the game, costs of running it and developing more stuff for it, and potential value from being able to sell the IP to a higher bidder in the future (which is, in turn, weighted against the likelihood of such a higher bidder ever materializing).

It is worth noting, here, however, that NCSoft was, before any negotiations started, planning to simply terminate the game. This would, at Nov. 30, result in immediate and rapidly continuing devaluation of the IP, simply due to loss of audience interest. Even if NCSoft doesn't consider it of $0 value, an immediate sale of the IP is worth more than sitting on it and simply considering all costs sunk. So that is why, even without the PR nightmare they could be facing, selling it is better than just ending it and refusing to. This also gives some negotiating clout to the buyer; "We're making an offer, and even if it's not what you might want, it's better than anything other option on the table for your bottom line."
- Once the parties agree on a value, is it calculated in dollars or won?  What if the exchange rate fluctuates violently once agreement is reached?
This one is really just a matter of preference and expected strength of the currency in question. Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, it is probably the better choice, and just to nail the value at that dollar amount. I can certainly see counter-arguments, but this does not seem like a point that would be that sticky compared to most of these others.
- How long does Paragon have to pay?  If it pays over time, does NCSoft retain a mortgage-like interest in the property?
Given NCSoft's desire to wash their hands of this product's continued running, a one-time payment by the end of the year is probably the best bet. Honestly, if I were at the table, myself, I would be looking to sign the check by Nov. 30. A lot here depends on what Paragon Studios's financial backers are willing to do. It is here that, if I could get some inkling of the actual dollar amounts involved, I would be pressing much harder with my tenuous connections to see if I can't sell it. Because the less "you have until..." there is in the payment, the better for all involved.

If it DOES go to a payment plan, I honestly think it'd be better for Paragon to incorporate and leave a negotiated-but-less-than-controlling interest in NCSoft's hands. It becomes merely an asset on their books, and they receive a percentage of profits, but otherwise are totally uninvolved. And they can sell that asset later to somebody else if they find a buyer and still don't like the returns they're getting.
- If "all rights" to the game are sold, can NCSoft still mention it in non-CoH advertising (e.g., "We sponsored the development of the innovative City of Heroes in 2004" in a Blade & Soul ad)?
- How long does NCSoft have to get rid of all references to and mentions of CoH in its websites and other materials (many are gone, but what about those pictures of Statesman)?
My suggestion here would be a non-exclusive license, renewed yearly and with a one-month deadline upon renewal not being performed, for NCSoft to use CoH PI in its corporate representations, provided they make no false claims about current involvement and make no promises about the future of CoH IP. If NCSoft wants to wash their hands completely, they simply take the first year to clean everything out. If they don't, they retain the license and use what they feel is important to use. They can't sell the license (so if somebody else wants to say "we sponsored the development..." they need to buy NCSoft, not just the rights to make that claim), but can maintain whatever level of pride they wish for the involvement they DID have.
- Since the "new" Paragon hasn't formed yet, what happens if the parties agree to a sale, then it never forms?  Does the IP revert to NCSoft?  To all the potential devs as a collection of individuals?  Somewhere else?
Two possible solutions here:

1) A "trusted third party" that already exists is the actual recipient, and Paragon Studios is going to form under them. By terms of contract, what "forms" means can be defined, roughly speaking as a list of names in various positions and duties to ensure the third party doesn't violate that trust. This way, if Paragon never forms, the third party is in breach of contract, but the IP has a place it's been handed.

2) Actual completion of the contract is contingent upon Paragon Studios forming as an entity. No reversion; the IP never transfers in the first place. Or, more likely, they come to a general agreement, Paragon Studios forms as an entity, and THEN the contract is signed.
- If someone sues Paragon and/or NCSoft about CoH, who defends the case?  If the plaintiff wins, who pays?  Does the kind of claim matter?  (This is one reason I'm so touchy about people saying they want to sue.  No one wants to buy a lawsuit.)
Set a cut-off date of Nov. 30 (or the date of the transfer, whichever seems more reasonable). Any suit involving promises made or damages done before then is NCSoft's responsibility; any suit involving promises made or damages done thereafter is Paragon's. While this could get sticky if somebody wanted to sue NCSoft for an already-made-at-this-point promise that Paragon didn't want to honor, I think NCSoft has already made all the preparations it needs to regarding those with its preparations for closing down everything on Nov. 30.

- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?
Because the nature and spirit of this deal is to let NCSoft wash its hands of this and let Paragon continue development as its own entity, I suggest the "Paragon can do these things free and clear" option. They are buying the IP and all associated properties. NCSoft was not planning to use them anymore, anyway, so trying to piecemeal it out is a bit foolish.
- How can NCSoft be sure its ex-employees aren't using proprietary information in maintaining an NCSoft-less CoH?  And if it can't, how much more should it charge to release the IP?  (This is the issue Segev raised.)
My answers and suggestions to this one would require that I knew much more about what NCSoft PI is "in jeopardy." It is tricky, especially if NCSoft suspects Paragon would actually deliberately attempt to steal proprietary information during a transfer of "just CoH stuff" from NCSoft servers to separate Paragon-only ones.
- If either party breaches the contract, what should the damages be?  In what forum should disputes be resolved (an especially sticky issue in an international negotiation like this)?
This one is outside my experience enough that I can't specify "what damages" there should be. From what little I know, however, if it gets to breach-of-contract, it's going to go to court, and courts notoriously decide the awards for damages. WHERE it will be resolved is an interesting issue. My knee-jerk response is "where the defendant is." This protects both companies if they want to USE the IP in some way that the other tries to prevent. Given the goal is mostly for one to wash their hands while the other uses it, the potential loss of exclusivity is of lesser concern than the potential denial of ability to use.

I would go so far as to say that the agreement may be wise to specify a "no cease-and-desist" clause so that procedures under trial are not halted by court order until the trial is resolved. While there is normally good reason to allow this sort of preemptive "wait before you keep doing something you maybe shouldn't" rule, the goal of this deal, at least for one side, is minimal interruption to CoH being offered to its customers, and there's likely little to be gained by the other by a few months' to a year's halting of "bad faith use" of the IP outside of bullying that, I assume, all sides are currently working in too much good faith to want to provision for.

I don't envy the people working on this.  It looks simple to us from the outside, but there are as many potential issues as there are potential problems going forward.  That's why I'm being extremely patient and hoping both parties can get what they want.  That is the way that we will get what we want, too.
Despite my total outsider status, I actually do wish I could be participating in this. I think I would enjoy it, and I am proud enough of my problem-solving skills to think I could genuinely help. Sadly, I know that my position is just wrong to enable me to get in there. Still, I will offer and volunteer at every opportunity on that very off chance.

All that is out of our hands.  The best thing we can do is to continue to demonstrate that the game has a dedicated fan base that makes it both worth selling and a good buy.  Keep it up, everyone!
Indeed. I have been very impressed by what everyone's done so far!

chaparralshrub

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #304 on: September 29, 2012, 04:48:55 PM »
Actually, I can think of another set of possible motivations on NCSoft's part:


1. NCS may not want competition, and figure that ANY MMO is potential competition for their MMOS, and they may also figure that the Save Paragon movement is a vocal minority of the players and that the majority of them will happily play Guild Wars. This is why the "Fool me six times" sub-movement is so important.

2. NCS may also want to retain the rights so that at some undefined point in the future start working on CoH II. Their legal department may be advising them to hold onto the IP for this reason, even if the executive department may not have any intent to ever do so. NCS may not have completely made up its mind itself.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #305 on: September 29, 2012, 04:52:14 PM »
Seeing a lot of great points, counter-points, and well thought out debates around here lately.


I'm damn proud of you. All of you. Debates like this continue to show just how committed we all are to saving our city. I have faith we'll pull through and win the day. State of the Titan, as of 11:49 am Central on 9/29?

Indestructible. Keep it up, guys.
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TonyV

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #306 on: September 29, 2012, 05:13:21 PM »
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #307 on: September 29, 2012, 05:16:23 PM »
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

+1 for Truth!
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #308 on: September 29, 2012, 05:23:48 PM »
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
Oh, definitely. Like I said, I tackled them because it was something that amused me to do. Not because I thought I was brilliantly solving problems to which those directly involved had yet to find solutions. That I'd enjoy trying to solve the actual issues is also true, but that's not my job and they've no reason to heed me.

I should, nevertheless, put together a report of the situation as I know it and shop it around to see if any people-with-money I know would be interested so I can try funnelling them past VV or TonyV to Brian. More money people can't hurt.

dwturducken

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #309 on: September 29, 2012, 05:41:19 PM »
I'd actually like to request that any further new threads opened on the topic of "Hey, what's the status?" be linked to O's post above and then closed.  In all seriousness, if they can't find this thread or the "News?" thread, they're not doing the minimum due diligence.

Also:
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?

I have had to stop going to the Sunset forum, because I have a research paper and NaNoWriMo coming up, and all these awesome ideas are killing my focus, so if you guys could stop having them, that'd be great.   :P
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Olantern

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #310 on: September 29, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

Exactly.  And this can happen even when both sides really, really want the deal to happen.  The negotiation changes constantly as new issues crop up and the parties try (or fail) to resolve them.

Of course, the point of having a contract in the first place is to avoid litigation when something goes wrong and isn't spelled out clearly ... but it means putting in negotiating and lawyer time beforehand to make that litigation less likely.

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dwturducken, you may be amused to know that I came up with the "Oranbega MMO" thing because I have a theory that that was the Super Secret Project.  This theory is based solely and entirely on my examination of the t-shirts I've seen some of the Paragon people wearing and is not suitable for public display.  Do not taunt Happy Fun Theory.  ;)

dwturducken

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #311 on: September 29, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

HEATSTROKE

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #312 on: September 29, 2012, 07:22:03 PM »
I thank everyone who spelled out on this post how challenging something that seems so simple on those of us on the outside and not in this industry these things can be. One thing I drew out from Thor's Assassin's post is that it seems as of the core of the Paragon Studios staff seems focused, dedicated and they want to see CoH continue even more than we want to. They have spent a part of their lives on this project.

I also suspect there are negotiations that have to happen about CoH 2. I cant see CoH lasting long term even if all the rights to it were secured. There would have to a future beyond what we have now and hopefully our characters would transfer over into that new project. That is imperative as well IMO and needs to be figured out as well.

The one thing I agree we need to do is not go negative and look like a bunch of angry game nerds, that wont get us anywhere.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #313 on: September 29, 2012, 07:31:21 PM »
Well said, HEATSTROKE. I, too, add my thanks to those who have shared some insight with the rest of us. In these times, any information--even speculation based on some small knowledge of industry norms--helps lift our spirits and keep us in the fight.


* DrakeGrimm passes around Wakies for the next round!
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Back Blast

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #314 on: September 29, 2012, 07:54:57 PM »
I have to admit that I've been living in denial about the end of the game. I just can't bring myself to truly accept the idea that there won't be a CoH after November. Its just too hard a thing to accept or contemplate. :gonk: Call it a leap of faith, but I really believe that something will happen to save the game. All the efforts I see here give me hope and keep me from wanting to crawl into a pit of dispair. So keep up the efforts folks. This isn't over yet.

But, should the absolute worst come to pass, at least we can all, players and devs alike, hold our heads up and say we tried.  :)

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #315 on: September 29, 2012, 08:01:22 PM »

Win or lose, I think the COH community has proven just how special it is.


chaparralshrub

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #316 on: September 29, 2012, 08:47:09 PM »
Win or lose, I think the COH community has proven just how special it is.

Well, on that note, we've proven that there is a niche out there for a game that's like CoH. If CoH does go under, how many other studios out there are going to try their hand to make their own spiritual successor?

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #317 on: September 29, 2012, 08:53:34 PM »
We can only hope that a number do.  ;D

'Cause yay for more people and companies trying to make outstanding products.  ;D ;D

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #318 on: September 29, 2012, 08:58:12 PM »
sad to see the game will shut-down indefinitely..

on the brightside, how much are we talking to raise for the IP? 400,000 or like 1-4 million?

if it's 400,000 I think we could all hold bakesale/donations ETC. in our respective towns.

if it's 1-4 mil... we should start reviewing some rich people's information and see who we think might be the best one to co-own CoH.

For example; we could ask bill gates.

I'm not to stoked on other companies making games similar to CoH, I've seen that twice Champions and DCUO, they aren't as fair and statistically thoughtful. CoH has a good Game Frame, it's not too easy or hard and the statistics aren't wackey.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #319 on: September 29, 2012, 09:01:04 PM »
The latest word is that negotiations between the former Paragon Studios leadership and NCSoft are underway and going about as well as could be hoped. It looks like NCSoft is not opposed, per se, but the sale is tricky and they're working on the difficult issues. If you DO know potential investors, VV and TonyV are apparently people to contact to have them hooked up with Paragon, because more money always helps, but there is definitely hope and things might just work out.