Author Topic: State of the Titan  (Read 106850 times)

No Remorse

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #260 on: September 28, 2012, 06:13:38 PM »
There is - or was - an effort to reverse engineer parts of the game. I don't know what's become of it, nor do I know where the IP limits are. From what I recall, reverse engineering the SERVER shouldn't be hard, but reverse engineering the game itself would be extremely difficult, as well as much more iffy legally. For what content exists on our hard drives (i.e. the CoH client), forcing us to erase that will be difficult, although I think technically NCS is supposed to be able to.

The objective of Plan Z is to develop a completely new game that is in the spirit of CoH, but is our own, community made, community driven, game. Plan Z will have its own IP that will belong to Titan Network, and nobody else. Doing this will require money, but it's a different kind of fundraising effort than trying to buy the CoH IP.

This makes more sense. It would still be a good idea to see how close it can be made without having NCSoft come back legally and say it was based on the likeness of their game, which could still be an issue potentially. There's a line that really should be defined by an expert. Have discussions begun for an official fund and what expectations and assurances there will be?

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #261 on: September 28, 2012, 06:26:01 PM »
Okay, here's the scoop.

Regarding reverse engineering:  That's legal.  Plenty of case law supports that, and we are actively doing this right now.  In fact, we've been doing it for quite a while on the down-low in order to improve the quality of our third-party tools.  We're hoping that things don't get to a point where this is the only option left.  If we do, then we'll probably talk to a lawyer before we distribute any products of our efforts to make sure that we have the legal ammo to fight any C&Ds that NCsoft might fire off our way, though really, I kinda doubt they will.  If we do release a server, it will almost certainly be without any City of Heroes IP included, as we wouldn't have the rights to do so.  We've been internally discussing the option of releasing "content packs" that would replace all of the existing missions, contacts, etc.  We've also been busily completing all incomplete content within the Paragon Wiki in case by some weird confluence of circumstance we are able to acquire the IP but not the code base so that we can implement the existing content if possible.  The exact implementation details aren't set in stone though, so all of that is subject to change.

The main hurdle of reverse engineering is the client.  If we go the reverse engineering route, we also almost certainly won't have the rights to distribute it, either.  That means that you're on your own to get a copy of it, and doing so will be considered infringement around the same equivalent of downloading an old copy of some other game that's out of production.  I doubt that NCsoft would pursue it, but it would make things harder in that we can't just put a link out there and tell people, "Run this to play."

I'm still hoping that all of this is moot.  If someone else acquires the property, there won't be any need to distribute the server.  Well, I take that back, sort of--I won't say no need, but we will choose not to distribute it because of the financial harm it could do to whomever purchased the property.

Regarding writing a new game:  We neither need nor will seek NCsoft's permission to do this.  While we might refer to it internally as a "spiritual successor to City of Heroes," we certainly won't be branding it as such.  If we go this route, we will definitely need a lawyer to protect ourselves, but not to actually develop the game.  That would come a lot later, once we get closer to release.

But having said all that...

I cannot emphasize this strongly enough.  These options are down the road.  We will not be releasing anything unless the official servers are turned off and we're convinced that there's no chance of them coming back on.  If the game is acquired by someone else who runs it, we won't be doing either of these.  It's a long time until November 30, a lot can happen before then, and I feel like working out the nitty gritty details of these options right now is jumping the gun.  As severance agreements run out, I strongly suspect that we'll have a much better idea of where things stand.

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #262 on: September 28, 2012, 06:35:51 PM »
How long do severance agreements typically last? I would suspect that they'd go at least until Nov. 30, if only to keep the lid on extra news leaking before NCSoft feels their hands are metaphorically washed of it.

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #263 on: September 28, 2012, 07:13:24 PM »
This makes more sense. It would still be a good idea to see how close it can be made without having NCSoft come back legally and say it was based on the likeness of their game, which could still be an issue potentially. There's a line that really should be defined by an expert. Have discussions begun for an official fund and what expectations and assurances there will be?

In addition to what Tony said, might I suggest that you actually read the City Sunset forums *before* you start commenting on Plan Z, please? Thus far, every single point which you have brought up regarding Plan Z has already been considered and addressed, tabled, or is still in discussion there. :)

About the working name...It has nothing to do with zombies. (Although I guarantee that there will be some in the game if it happens.) It is the last ditch, ALL other options have failed, everything else has gone to hell plan. Hence, Z. As in, last. We could have called it the Omega Plan, but I didn't want people to start thinking about how to make the Omega 13 work properly. ;)
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eabrace

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #264 on: September 28, 2012, 07:46:42 PM »
How long do severance agreements typically last? I would suspect that they'd go at least until Nov. 30, if only to keep the lid on extra news leaking before NCSoft feels their hands are metaphorically washed of it.
Depends on the company.  The standard severance package where I'm at is one week of pay per full year of service plus accrued vacation, but no matter how long I was gone, I wouldn't be able to leak anything considered company proprietary information without subjecting myself to a lawsuit.
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Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #265 on: September 28, 2012, 07:54:25 PM »
But news on how and why CoH was closed, as well as good and bad things in the direction of getting the IP sold off, would not fall into this "proprietary information" category, would it?

eabrace

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #266 on: September 28, 2012, 08:03:49 PM »
Yeah, basically, "proprietary" can be considered essentially any information related to how the company conducts business.  Usually, that's related to manufacturing processes, code development processes, etc, but depending on the company could easily be expanded to include the hows and whys of laying people off and shutting down support for a product.
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Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #267 on: September 28, 2012, 08:06:29 PM »
In that case, what might one reasonably expect the end of severance packages to allow MORE talk of?

eabrace

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #268 on: September 28, 2012, 08:09:12 PM »
In that case, what might one reasonably expect the end of severance packages to allow MORE talk of?
That'll be hard to say since I'm sure the NDA that goes along with the severance includes a "thou shalt not speak of the specifics of thine NDA" clause.  We'll just have to wait and see what we find out and assume that anything else falls under the gag order.
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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #269 on: September 28, 2012, 08:33:38 PM »
I was just in game and i noticed somthing strange. . . a new costume set called Cybertech
it's locked (no supprise's there) and signals the user to go and buy it in the store. . . . except there is not mention of where these new peaces came from in the store, no really if you try and buy them the (well the one peace i pulled up) they come up with an error, can anyone else confirm this and maybe come up with whats going on with these new items?

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #270 on: September 28, 2012, 08:43:21 PM »
I was just in game and i noticed somthing strange. . . a new costume set called Cybertech

That's the Cyberpunk set that was mentioned or maybe previewed at the last summit, I forget. It was renamed to Cybertech and was scheduled to go live on Sep. 18. That date may have changed if not for the shutdown, we don't know for sure.

Either way, there's nobody left to add it to the store, so you can't actually get it.  :-\

No Remorse

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #271 on: September 28, 2012, 09:26:32 PM »
In addition to what Tony said, might I suggest that you actually read the City Sunset forums *before* you start commenting on Plan Z, please? Thus far, every single point which you have brought up regarding Plan Z has already been considered and addressed, tabled, or is still in discussion there. :)

With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

Segev

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #272 on: September 28, 2012, 09:43:16 PM »
The problem, Dear No Remorse, is that you have swept in and assumed that we're all and only advocating the political actions and the law suits and the "forcing" of "give aways" of the IP.

If you'd actually read the forum posts surrounding those rather unfortunate posts you mention, you'd see that the majority and consistent response has been for moderation of such sentiments, just as you're now advocating. We are keeping very tight control of ourselves and cautioning any radical, baseless screeds to be more patient, to take a firm but reasonable tone, and not har off into wishful thinking vengeance territory.

The negative response to your own posts has been due to your almost libelous presumption that the majority of effort on this board has been towards foolhardy and doomed negative efforts when the opposite has been the case. It is not that you are wrong in your sentiment that we should be positive, should approach this like adults, and should be working towards persuasion rather than coercion, but that you're wrong in declaiming the entire board for holding the coercive and foolhardy positions when we, in fact, do not.

A man who entered a meeting of Planned Parenthood leadership and told them all to stop infringing on the reproductive rights of women by trying to ban contraception would be met with equal incredulity and scorn, not because they believe that women should be banned from contraceptives, but because he's making false accusations.

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #273 on: September 28, 2012, 09:46:35 PM »
I'm generally encouraging everyone to read at *least* the "Where we are" thread before they start discussing Plan Z. :) I've found that it's always better to approach a subject from the perspective of knowing what's already been discussed and what hasn't. It's much easier to make productive contributions that way. Your post simply stood out as an example of points which have already been discussed - I assure you, I've made the same suggestion to several other folks working on Plan Z. Please don't take it personally, or as if I'm trying to offend you. You're certainly correct that there have been bad suggestions on the forums. I think that's fairly true of any open forum area. I believe we've quashed most of those over in the Sunset forums, and that we are all attempting to work from a respectful, polite standpoint with the ultimate goal being to save City of Heroes *legally*.
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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #274 on: September 28, 2012, 09:49:30 PM »
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

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TonyV

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #275 on: September 28, 2012, 10:32:09 PM »
All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

Maybe so, but I've said before that we're walking on the edge of a razor here.  The things I've been asking for have been balancing dozens of factors, including risks of backlash in our actions.  I can't promise that we won't cross that line, but so far, I think we've stayed reasonable far from it.  I don't agree with the "divided attention" problem yet.  Our reverse engineers are reverse engineering, if we develop a new game it will take years and another month or two of trying other paths won't hurt, and people who need to be talking to NCsoft are talking to NCsoft.  I think we have everything pretty well in hand doing everything we can.  That still doesn't promise success, but I think we've maximized our chances pretty well so far.

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #276 on: September 28, 2012, 11:05:04 PM »
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

You're obviously pretty smart.  I'll leave the arguments to other people, namely Tony.  However, no one's going to take anything you say seriously or constructively when you start insulting them.  I can understand why you're getting defensive, and I also understand that there are things people don't like to hear.  Did you really think something constructive would come out of your pointed and malicious arguments?  Or are you really just a troll?

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #277 on: September 28, 2012, 11:13:00 PM »
You're obviously pretty smart.  I'll leave the arguments to other people, namely Tony.  However, no one's going to take anything you say seriously or constructively when you start insulting them.  I can understand why you're getting defensive, and I also understand that there are things people don't like to hear.  Did you really think something constructive would come out of your pointed and malicious arguments?  Or are you really just a troll?

I prefer the term kaisha no inu myself, but the term 'troll' may be more appropriate in this instance.

(damn, there I go showing off again)

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #278 on: September 28, 2012, 11:33:54 PM »
I hope TonyV can be there tommorow for Victory's Unity rally/march from AP to PI
Hello Gang! remember!
There is a unity rally march/walk on Victory server this coming Saturday evening at 7 P.M. EST and lasting until we decide its over. we will be starting in Atlas park and marching through Skyway then to Talos island and take the Ferry to PI and end up in Portals courtyard and take lots of pictures along the way. As for a recording of that. I do not know. That would possibly take over an hours of recording and that's a lot of disc space to take up So the pics will work well. if you have any questions contact me here or while in game its Madame Shayla or Lady Shayla

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Re: State of the Titan
« Reply #279 on: September 28, 2012, 11:38:01 PM »
Can we just limit our posts to being positive? If someone reads something that's looks as though it's out of line, maybe send them a PM. No need to distract from the status reports.
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