Author Topic: Legal Considerations and Challenges  (Read 50636 times)

Olantern

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Legal Considerations and Challenges
« on: September 06, 2012, 01:35:35 AM »

Olantern

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 01:41:01 AM »

Olantern

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 01:48:14 AM »

Vulpy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 285
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 01:49:58 AM »
I'd like to be the first to thank you for this valuable insight, Olantern. I won't even make a lawyer joke!
@Vulpy
Protector Server

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 02:11:21 AM »
I like the "subscriptions as shares" notion. I know I'm oversimplifying what you said, but you get the idea.  I've been rolling an idea around in my head that I wanted to get more research on before presenting it, but it's not going to hurt to get some community input.  Also, it's still too early to know where the current talks between Paragon and NCSoft have ended up.

What about a PBS-type model, only without the support of the National Endowment for the Arts?  Maybe more along the lines of Wikimedia.  It would be extremely difficult to gain 501(c) status, but none of us are doing this to make money from it.  PBS and NPR have been making a go of it for years, but, again, good luck convincing the good folks at the NEA that something like this is a project "exhibiting artistic excellence." :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

castorcorvus

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 02:19:39 AM »
Olantern, if you were here I would kiss ya! This is exactly what has been running through my head, but I lacked the legal terms needed to put them into words. Thing is that if we are going to form a business of any kind, our best option is to lay the ground work for it ASAP. Well before the November deadline. I hear a lot of people telling us that "it may not be needed". You're right, it may not. But I'd rather have a plan and not need it, than need a plan and not have it. Just because we have a formal business plan typed up, does not mean we have to use it right off the bat. Now, excuse me. I need to return to my copy of "small business for complete idiots."

castorcorvus, out.

JustJane

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 02:20:51 AM »
Wow, really great info. Thanks so much for posting it! I look forward to what else might come to mind. This is all part of being as realistic and prepared as we can be.

And on a side note, that did not seem negative at all. It was very respectful and neutral.

Thirty-Seven

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
  • Keeper of the Sacred Number
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 02:46:08 AM »
So, assuming there is any latitude at all for NCSoft to sell... we need to form (for example) Titan Group, LLC and use it as the entity all the funds from something like IndieGoGo are pooled into.  Then, each player would be a form of stockholder through their monthly subscription fee.  That entity would purchase CoH's rights... allowing it (and with a lesser amount of liability) those who formed the LLC to operate the game.

Sounds way easier than it is, I assume.  And lots of big ifs in there!

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 02:48:34 AM »
I've been thinking about this in the back of my mind, and since I didn't see it mentioned about, wanted to float the idea of a nonprofit foundation to hold the assets and administer the game in the event that a fan buyout looks possible.

laufeyjarson

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 02:49:22 AM »
Interesting.  The last I'd heard is that rules to a game system, and the systems themselves are not copyrightable.  Graphic elements of them can be, but the rules themselves, just like recipes, can't be copyrighted.  The US Copyright office seems to agree.  See: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html which seems pretty clear about rules for a game.

Patents are a different story.  Has NCsoft got patents on any of the elements of the system used in City of Heroes?

It doesn't mean that a too-close copy wouldn't have NCsoft suing, wether or not they'd win.  Lawsuits are expensive and destroy a group regardless of the outcome of the suit; we really don't want NCsoft to sue.

It's also very likely true that by changing some of the inner workings you can get a system which feels similar enough in play but has a different set of constructs behind it.  They'd be hard pressed to win a suit for a new system developed by the players.  Again, this doesn't they won't sue.

castorcorvus

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 03:01:05 AM »
Darn it all people, lets get started. As olantern said, we need a plan, this link ( http://www.sba.gov/ ) tells us what info we need to form that plan. We need to find someone who has already formed a business, get them to help us avoid the pitfalls. I know some people, perhaps they'll give me a few pointers, I suggest you all do the same. We need someone or several somones to step-up and get this underway. Olantern, if you know anyone who can help in corporate law, now would be the time to tell us. We also need accountants, marketing experts, and we either need the Titan Network to step up its game and form a virtual workspace for this company or we need to take it somewhere else. We also need to do some digging and find out for sure just how many of the "sticks" in this bundle that NCsoft owns lock, stock, and barrel. This is happening folks. I'll post again in 24 hours, those onboard had best say so. Keep in mind all, this may be unneeded, or it may be our last chance. But no matter what we need to have the outline done well before November if we are to stand a ghost of a chance if all else falls through.
 
castorcorvus, out. :D

dwturducken

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,152
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2012, 03:47:38 AM »
While we're tossing legal questions about, Cryptic licensed the engine and some other sticks to NCSoft. It's in perpetuity, but is it exclusive?  Does NCSoft have the rights permission to "sublet" their sticks? Do they have the right to just sit on the sticks for the balance of "perpetuity?"

I don't expect anyone to pipe up with answers, but IANAL, as it were.  Just thought they bore adding to the questions being asked.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Mantic

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 172
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 06:04:47 AM »
Best, most valuable thread here so far. Kudos, Olantern!

Part of the problem with "charting a course," however, is the law itself. Walls are up to prevent us seeing the true landscape. Paragon Studios employees are gagged, unable to tell us what it looks like.


Also, I like Codewalker's suggestion of forming a nonprofit trustee of some sort, rather than a corporate commercial entity. That would make the prospect of a collective purchase attempt a little more palatable.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 06:27:56 AM by Mantic »

Golden Girl

  • One Liners and Winky Faces
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,242
    • Heroes and Villains
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 06:37:35 AM »
On a side note related to the hopefully never-needed Plan Z, while quite a few people have suggested the name Phoenix City, which not only has nice symbolism, but also keeps the "PC" shortening of the name like Paragon City, I'm now leaning more towards "Titan City" as the name of the project and the setting of the game - not just because any attempt to get it off the ground would very likely be organized here, but because it has a dynamic, powerful ring to it, references the Greek mythology that forms such a big part of the CoH lore, and just generally brings to mind the idea of larger-than-life characters and battles, as in "a titanic struggle", "a clash of the titans", and so on.
So whatever kind of company we set up to take care of funding, we should also register the name of the game as a trademark, and register it as a domain name too - even though it would be a totally fan made and run effort, we'd still need to protect it from outside trouble.
I think we should probably do it soon, too - even thought we're all going to fight NCSoft all the way, we're also going to need to be ready to swing into action with Plan Z as soon as possible, if it's needed, just to give some hope to the wider CoH community and help recruit the help we're going to need to get it off the ground.
"Heroes and Villains" website - http://www.heroes-and-villains.com
"Heroes and Villains" on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/HeroesAndVillainsMMORPG
"Heroes and Villains" on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Plan_Z_Studios
"Heroes and Villains" teaser trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnjKqNPfFv8
Artwork - http://goldengirlcoh.deviantart.com

Mister Bison

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • *psychotic grin*
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 07:36:38 AM »
Interesting.  The last I'd heard is that rules to a game system, and the systems themselves are not copyrightable.  Graphic elements of them can be, but the rules themselves, just like recipes, can't be copyrighted.  The US Copyright office seems to agree.  See: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html which seems pretty clear about rules for a game.

Patents are a different story.  Has NCsoft got patents on any of the elements of the system used in City of Heroes?

It doesn't mean that a too-close copy wouldn't have NCsoft suing, wether or not they'd win.  Lawsuits are expensive and destroy a group regardless of the outcome of the suit; we really don't want NCsoft to sue.

It's also very likely true that by changing some of the inner workings you can get a system which feels similar enough in play but has a different set of constructs behind it.  They'd be hard pressed to win a suit for a new system developed by the players.  Again, this doesn't they won't sue.

NCSoft hesn't got patents for what they used in CoH, but Worlds, Inc. has tried to sue them in 2008 for patent infringement identical to what they presently sue Blizzard/Activision for, last April (news link)

Though I kinda find it silly to patent "system and method for enabling users to interact in a virtual space" >_>
Yeeessss....

WanderingAries

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 321
  • @WanderingAries /\ Mostly on Torch
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 11:15:28 AM »
I whole heartedly agree with the completely new name concept as nomatter what, this will be a rebuilding. Even if we do manage to acquire all of the current assets, it's still going to FEEL like a new city. While I like the concept of the Phoenix, Titan makes more sense (for probably the same reason this site chose said name :-p). Since we already have this Titan group setup, then I'd be willing to bet that it'd be that much easier to step into the light so to speak as an official company. As for the type of company, while LLCs might look interesting, an actual Corp or the Non-Profit entities have me at an empass. Both have merit, but we'd need to take a long hard look into What we want to be. At this stage in the game there is so much going on that I'm willing to bet we also need to save up for a nursemaid for TonyV.  :-p
Find me on Homecoming:
https://www.homecomingservers.com

Vulpy

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 285
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2012, 11:19:59 AM »
Thing is that if we are going to form a business of any kind, our best option is to lay the ground work for it ASAP. Well before the November deadline.

As much as I hate to admit it, you make a very good point. Can we be sure that any efforts to lay groundwork for business and legal proceedings won't detract from other efforts to save the game outright? There's only so much time and energy any one person can give, after all. If we had a team of lawyers and business types whose time would be better used there than in collecting testimonials, that's one thing; if this comes at the expense of pressuring NCsoft, that's another.
@Vulpy
Protector Server

jacknomind

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 132
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2012, 11:49:27 AM »
Excellent, excellent post, Olantern.  I've been gesturing at the same sorts of concepts, and I feel a bit like a caveman pointing at a car and going, "URGH!  MAKE GO!" in comparison.

Of course, from my primitive point of view, I don't really see the challenges that others do, other than the fundamental and primordial one of, well, convincing NCSoft to sell to us.  We have the basis for our corporation already; as Codewalker said, we will likely want to incorporate as a nonprofit foundation to hold the intellectual properties of CoH.  In exchange for a zero-charge license to use said property, we will require a perpetual license to any and all assets developed for it by whichever for-profit studio(s) maintain and continue it.

This is... subsequent to resolving that primordial issue I mentioned above.  NCSoft might give us something very very limited, like a nonspecific-duration continuation of the game on their terms and restoration of part of Paragon Studios.  I think I would probably try to continue working with interested parties at that point to establish a new CoH-like property, but it would end the current movement.

Olantern

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 05:33:24 PM »
I'm glad to see people are making use of this thread.

Darn it all people, lets get started. As olantern said, we need a plan, this link ( http://www.sba.gov/ ) tells us what info we need to form that plan. We need to find someone who has already formed a business, get them to help us avoid the pitfalls. I know some people, perhaps they'll give me a few pointers, I suggest you all do the same. We need someone or several somones to step-up and get this underway. Olantern, if you know anyone who can help in corporate law, now would be the time to tell us. We also need accountants, marketing experts, and we either need the Titan Network to step up its game and form a virtual workspace for this company or we need to take it somewhere else. We also need to do some digging and find out for sure just how many of the "sticks" in this bundle that NCsoft owns lock, stock, and barrel. This is happening folks. I'll post again in 24 hours, those onboard had best say so. Keep in mind all, this may be unneeded, or it may be our last chance. But no matter what we need to have the outline done well before November if we are to stand a ghost of a chance if all else falls through.

In a nutshell, this what needs to be done.  Notice all the different steps that ultimately need to be taken.  My concern is that new businesses normally don't start up with less than three months of planning.  We are trying to do something on an expedited timetable here, and I'm not sure how successful we can be at that.  Regardless, we need to start scouting the ground, if not laying groundwork, now.  As Castorcorvus pointed out, ideally, we need someone with business formation and administration experience to pitch in here.  (Don't look at me; I've only ever worked for the government and for academic institutions.)

I strongly recommend that everyone take a look at the SBA website linked in Castorcorvus's post.  One set-up I saw mentioned there that I hadn't even considered is the idea of running something as a cooperative.  I wouldn't normally even think of that kind of organization, which is rarely even mentioned in law school business courses, but it does get around one problem I mentioned in my post on entity choice.  As I noted there, one problem with a "subscribers own the game" structure run as a corporation is that the corporation is constantly having to issue new stock for each new stockholder who joins.  This creates the potential for a lot of organizational problems, since ultimate control of a corporation is apportioned by the amount of stock held.

A co-op removes that issue, since it involves owner-customers by definition.  Most cooperatives out there sell things like food or physical goods (CostCo and Sam's Club being the best-known examples) or services (like credit unions).  I've never heard of anyone even considering running an MMO that way, probably because it would be hard to pay the tremendous start-up costs of an MMO under that system.  There are certainly problems with running a co-op.  Being organized essentially as a democracy of members makes it difficult to make decisions; when have you ever seen even the forums, a tiny subset of the player population, come close to a reasoned consensus on anything controversial?  I shudder to think what would happen if a major balance nerf were required in a game run as a co-op.  But, like other organizational forms, it's worth considering.

With regard to help with starting up, choosing a business form, etc., while it's possible to do these things without having representation, it might be necessary for the planned entity, whatever it is, to have lawyers, especially since we're talking about a business that's expressly set up to buy (or develop a successor to) someone else's IP.  Of course, legal representation is expensive.  However, it might be possible to get around the cost issue, and get some much-needed counseling on entity choice and possibly IP issues, if the planned entity goes to a legal clinic for representation.

Law clinics are a bit like medical clinics.  Normally run through law schools, they involve students, working under the supervision of a professor licensed to practice law, representing actual clients drawn from the public.   I used to be one of those professors, supervising in a clinic handling tax disputes.  (That clinic was ultimately shut down, and now I teach only "regular" law school classes.)  While most clinics are like mine and handle actual disputes, there are also clinics out there that do transactional work, such as starting up small businesses or nonprofits, and the like.  Some even do IP work as well.  The major advantage of these operations is that they're generally free to the client.  While having a student-attorney as your attorney may seem like a bargain-basement option, I can tell you from experience with my own students that they'll usually provide representation at least as good as a regular attorney, partly because they really want the experience (and the grade) and partly because they have more time to work cases than lawyers in practice usually do.  Anyway, that may be an option.  However, it would require the Undetermined Player Entity to have a locality where it wants to be based in mind.  Clinics generally represent "local" groups.  Anyway, it's a possibility.

Before even considering anything like that, though, we need to know what this Undetermined Player Entity will do.  It does need to be something more than "negotiate with NCSoft"; what happens otherwise if those negotiations are unsuccessful, or if NCSoft isn't interested in negotiating?  Developing this kind of plan is a critical, critical thing.  We can't do much with regard to law and form until we know how we want to use them.

In an unrelated matter, I am willing to contribute $10 toward the Nursemaid for TonyV position.  ;D

Olantern

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 06:01:04 PM »
On a side note related to the hopefully never-needed Plan Z, while quite a few people have suggested the name Phoenix City, which not only has nice symbolism, but also keeps the "PC" shortening of the name like Paragon City, I'm now leaning more towards "Titan City" as the name of the project and the setting of the game - not just because any attempt to get it off the ground would very likely be organized here, but because it has a dynamic, powerful ring to it, references the Greek mythology that forms such a big part of the CoH lore, and just generally brings to mind the idea of larger-than-life characters and battles, as in "a titanic struggle", "a clash of the titans", and so on.
So whatever kind of company we set up to take care of funding, we should also register the name of the game as a trademark, and register it as a domain name too - even though it would be a totally fan made and run effort, we'd still need to protect it from outside trouble.
I think we should probably do it soon, too - even thought we're all going to fight NCSoft all the way, we're also going to need to be ready to swing into action with Plan Z as soon as possible, if it's needed, just to give some hope to the wider CoH community and help recruit the help we're going to need to get it off the ground.

This post got me to thinking of a number of things.

First, while it's awfully early to start thinking about the specifics of a potential new setting, GG is right that it's a good idea to secure things like domain names as soon as possible.  I caution against using either "Phoenix" or "Titan," though.  While both are great names, for all the reasons GG stated, both are also strongly associated with characters of major comics publishers.  I think a cease and desist letter from DC (Titan) or Marvel (Phoenix) is likely as soon as either name goes into use.  It's a bitter pill to swallow, but these are the kinds of pitfalls we need to avoid, especially at very early stages.  I'm pretty confident that the community that came up with eight and a half years of character names is more than up to the challenge of thinking up something both punchy and original.

Second, I'm not sure about registering the trademark.  Trademarks often are not registered until a good or service has been in use for a while because registration is helpful, but not critical, to establishing that a mark is valid in trademark litigation.  There are two reasons I'd suggest holding off, at least for now, on registration.  First, while I don't know what trademark is like, in the world of copyright, registration at an early stage often opens the registrant up to getting bombarded with a bunch of scams.  Second and more importantly, before registering a trademark, there needs to be some kind of entity to hold it.

Finally, and getting off the subject of this thread slightly, if any of the efforts for a post-NCSoft, player-started operation (whether it's a reborn CoH or Plan Z) go ahead, the players doing the starting need to go into doing so with their eyes open.  This is a risky, risky venture, even with the solid base of goodwill from present CoH players.  As those who follow games news know, most new MMO's fail, and as our experience in the past week shows, even successful ones can have trouble staying in operation.  We have to realize that this is just like starting up any other kind of business or nonprofit foundation.  It's likely that nothing will come of any of our efforts.  The first step in ensuring that the squalling infant of the Undetermined Player Entity survives and grows up to thrives is to recognize the dangers it faces from the instant it's born.  Our faith is strong, but we will need wits and luck, too!  :)

For a more thorough assessment of issues related to my last point there, I recommend taking a look at some of the threads on crowdfunding and Superhobo's recent thread about venture capital issues.