Author Topic: Titan Waterworks  (Read 6338 times)

Cannonfodder

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Titan Waterworks
« on: May 13, 2011, 04:03:19 PM »
I'm trying it.  I can see the usefulness of it.

Why is there the ability to have several databases with multiple characters in them?  What's the usefulness vs. one saved file per character?

UI/feature suggestions: 

In the next version, an info window with a description of the incarnate ability would save me having to either use Mid's in another window or have paragonwiki loaded.

Between the abilities listing and the obtained/remaining window, would it be possible to use +/-, add/remove, or </> to add and remove things from window to window?  Would it be possible to use one click to select an item/ability (seeing it's description and perhaps the required components to craft) and a double-click to add/remove the item/ability?

Is there any way to make the abilities use the tree format?  For example, Alpha tab, Abilities Folder, Cardiac Folder which would then have two folders Cardiac Core Boost and Cardiac Radial Boost and the ability Cardiac Boost.  Cardiac Core Boost folder would have the Cardiac Core Boost ability and two folders Cardiac Total Core Revamp and Cardiac Partial Core Revamp.  To me it could help me to remember which abilities do what, especially if you tried to replicate the tree format used in the incarnate window in-game.

I'm going to keep trying it and see if it gets any easier to figure out.  :)
--Jason
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DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 04:25:33 PM »
Why is there the ability to have several databases with multiple characters in them?  What's the usefulness vs. one saved file per character?
Some people share computers with other players. It's also useful for keeping backups.

In the next version, an info window with a description of the incarnate ability would save me having to either use Mid's in another window or have paragonwiki loaded.
Noted. It was something I considered already, but I never thought of a pleasing way to integrate it.

Between the abilities listing and the obtained/remaining window, would it be possible to use +/-, add/remove, or </> to add and remove things from window to window?  Would it be possible to use one click to select an item/ability (seeing it's description and perhaps the required components to craft) and a double-click to add/remove the item/ability?
Adding/removing items via keystrokes is on my to-do list. I'm not fond of adding more clicks for features which won't be necessary much of the time. I did consider changing right-click to list options rather than instantly removing items, though, since you can just use the shift+click (craft) feature in most cases to get rid of items you no longer have.

Is there any way to make the abilities use the tree format?  For example, Alpha tab, Abilities Folder, Cardiac Folder which would then have two folders Cardiac Core Boost and Cardiac Radial Boost and the ability Cardiac Boost.  Cardiac Core Boost folder would have the Cardiac Core Boost ability and two folders Cardiac Total Core Revamp and Cardiac Partial Core Revamp.  To me it could help me to remember which abilities do what, especially if you tried to replicate the tree format used in the incarnate window in-game.
Well, it seemed a little silly to me to have a "Common" branch with just one ability in it, an "Uncommon" with just two, and a "Very Rare" with just two. As it is, they're ordered from bottom to top, left to right based on the in-game Incarnate window. Having Core and Rare branches wouldn't be so bad, I suppose, but it's more clicking, and adding more branches in there would just be ugly.

Cannonfodder

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2011, 03:51:40 PM »
I messed around with this a little more and got some of the interface figured out.  More feedback later.
--Jason
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DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2011, 05:56:13 PM »
I'm certain the "Getting Started" item in the Help menu is pretty helpful.

Cannonfodder

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 03:14:50 AM »
Things that took me a little while to figure out:

How to un-select an ability (yes, I know shift+click is right there next to the buttons, but the first time I used it, I couldn't figure it out). :)

If you select a t2 or t3 ability, it doesn't remove the t1 or t2 and t1 from the shopping list.  For example, clicking Total Musculature Core Revamp over to the Obtained window, it still shows I need two Musculature Boosts for my goal.  Once I added one Musculature Boost and one Musculature Core Boost to the obtained list, they disappeared from the Remaining window.

Is there a way to select multiple abilities within a slot?  For example, my main is working on getting to t4 in all four branches of the Alpha slot.

Is there a way to fill in the target ability intermediate steps if you already have the t2 or t3 in that step?  For example, I've got Ion Total Core Judgement and Ion Judgement obtained.  My target ability is Ion Core Final Judgement.  I can't select  Ion Total Core Judgement as my intermediate step.

The option for "Slots Share Obtained Items" might want to be on by default.  I got my 7-8 characters set up in the database when I discovered what this option does.  Now I have to go back and reset all of them up.

The t4 abilities are showing the need for all 4 t3 abilities in the Remaining window.  Maybe a change to the interface such as Target Ability in the top box, two boxes for Desired Intermediate Abilities and then would it be possible to have the third box auto-populate?  For example if you choose Ion Total Core Judgement as one of the intermediate steps the box below that would auto-populate with Ion Core Judgement (b/c you can't get to Ion Total Core or Ion Partial Core w/out Ion Core).

Ignore what I suggested earlier with the sub-folders emulating the branching trees.  Once a description window is added, that will make things easier to navigate.

I'm enjoying playing with it and thank you for putting it out.  Apologies if I seem critical, but I'm trying to give useful end-user feedback.  :)

--Jason
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Sooner

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 06:59:56 AM »
I could have used a bit more instruction on how to use this. It's not as intuitive as I'd like, and some of the descriptive text isn't clear.

I spent quite a bit of time entering my main incarnates in, taking care to make sure all my components were "obtained," and that I had selected goals for every ability that wasn't yet at tier 4.

After I was finished, I went back to my first character only to discover that all the information there was wrong. Now... I have no doubt that I made a mistake in data entry... but I don't know what that mistake was and therefor no way to be sure I won't repeat the mistake again.

I can see where this will be very useful, but right now... I'm not completely sure I will trust it.

DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 01:57:07 PM »
Quote
If you select a t2 or t3 ability, it doesn't remove the t1 or t2 and t1 from the shopping list.  For example, clicking Total Musculature Core Revamp over to the Obtained window, it still shows I need two Musculature Boosts for my goal.  Once I added one Musculature Boost and one Musculature Core Boost to the obtained list, they disappeared from the Remaining window.

If you obtain a T2 or T3 ability, it will remove those and any requirements for them from the shopping list. I cannot reproduce the behavior you're describing.



Quote
Is there a way to select multiple abilities within a slot?  For example, my main is working on getting to t4 in all four branches of the Alpha slot.

There is no way to select multiple abilities for one slot at this time, but I'll write that down.



Quote
Is there a way to fill in the target ability intermediate steps if you already have the t2 or t3 in that step?  For example, I've got Ion Total Core Judgement and Ion Judgement obtained.  My target ability is Ion Core Final Judgement.  I can't select  Ion Total Core Judgement as my intermediate step.

You can't select Ion Total Core Judgement as a intermediate step if you already have it because you can't craft a T4 out of two of the same T3.



Quote
The option for "Slots Share Obtained Items" might want to be on by default.  I got my 7-8 characters set up in the database when I discovered what this option does.  Now I have to go back and reset all of them up.

Noted.



Quote
The t4 abilities are showing the need for all 4 t3 abilities in the Remaining window.  Maybe a change to the interface such as Target Ability in the top box, two boxes for Desired Intermediate Abilities and then would it be possible to have the third box auto-populate?  For example if you choose Ion Total Core Judgement as one of the intermediate steps the box below that would auto-populate with Ion Core Judgement (b/c you can't get to Ion Total Core or Ion Partial Core w/out Ion Core).

I cannot reproduce this behavior. Intermediate steps are automatically calculated already; the Intermediate Steps box is basically to force a particular T3 you want to appear in the required items list.



Quote
After I was finished, I went back to my first character only to discover that all the information there was wrong. Now... I have no doubt that I made a mistake in data entry... but I don't know what that mistake was and therefore no way to be sure I won't repeat the mistake again.

Color me confused. Since data entry basically takes one click per obtained component/ability, I don't see how you could have made a mistake, but as for the reliability of the program to save the data properly, I've been using it for months without issue.

Supa Troll

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 05:23:31 AM »
The optimization gets confused if you have crafting components turned off.

Example:

I tell it that I have the following components:

Clockwork Partial Radial Improved Ally
Gluon Compound
Exotic Isotope
Forbidden Technique

And set the target to Clockwork Radial Superior Ally

With crafting of uncommons and rares turned on, it acts correctly, and wants to make Clockwork Total Core Improved Ally (which uses the components I currently have).

However, if either of those options are turned off, it instead wants to make either the Partial Core or the Total Radial T3, and even tells me to needlessly break down the components I already have (why would it break anything down if it doesn't need to craft anything?) and get a different uncommon or rare.

So far in playing with it I, it makes sense to disable crafting of anything above common for the non-alpha slot abilities, just to avoid showing a bunch of extra components I don't need. I can work around it by manually setting the desired intermediate ability to the one I know is the most efficient, but IMO it should pick the most efficient one whether crafting is enabled or not.

ResidentX

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 11:49:35 PM »
I downloaded and installed this tool today. Can I figure the total number of shards, threads, notices, and favors needed and drop the numbers as I move forward?

Fallen Angel Eyes

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 04:16:26 AM »
Any ETA on Waterworks being updated for 20.5 for the new Lore pets added?




DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2011, 05:08:02 AM »
It was updated today.

TonyV

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 05:43:23 AM »
For the record, it's not DeProgrammer's fault it's been delayed; that would be me.  It's been done, but I just tonight pulled the repository copy down to the live site.  Apologies all around, and I'll try to be more responsive to this in the future.

Cannonfodder

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 09:29:25 AM »
I played mucho this past weekend and spent far too much time trying to organize Incarnate slotting between all my characters.

I made a visual reference of what I envision for Waterworks 2.0 here:  https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxkD_9nPPkDdHl4REFqYTJmTUlXLUZOazBzZVNsMEE&hl=en_US

I also have the Excel 2010 spreadsheet that I can send along to you that shows the rendering slightly better.

In my head, when I imagine a tool to try and organize Incarnate abilities, this is what I see.  I have no clue how to render any of this into functionality.

Please take a look and let me know your thoughts.  If you have any questions or if anything is unclear please PLEASE let me know and I'll try to clarify.
--Jason
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Big King

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 09:36:22 PM »
This tool looks to be exactly what I need, but I'm having trouble running it. A search online led me to believe I need to execute it from the command line with the jar tag (may want to reference this on the download page for users who may be used to downloading installers or executables), but I get this error:

Code: [Select]
E:\Waterworks>java -jar TitanWaterworks.jar
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: Bad version n
umber in .class file
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$100(Unknown Source)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source)
        at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
        at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClassInternal(Unknown Source)

The requirements say "requires Java", which I do have. Is a certain version required?

Thanks for the hard work,
Big King

DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2011, 02:17:14 AM »
You can run them by double-clicking them usually. If it asks you what program to open them with, navigate to C:/Program Files/Java/jre*/bin/ and pick javaw.exe. (Program Files would be "Program Files (x86)" on 64-bit operating systems, and jre* may be jre5 or jre6 depending on how recent your Java installation is.)

Big King

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 04:00:51 AM »
Hmmm, ok. So mine is "C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\javaw.exe" and gives the same error. I'll try an upgrade and hope it corrects it.

Michiyo

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 11:07:03 AM »
Hmmm, ok. So mine is "C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_06\bin\javaw.exe" and gives the same error. I'll try an upgrade and hope it corrects it.

Yeah from bug reports, jre1.5.0_06 looks to be from about 05, Uninstall that version, and grab the latest from Suns website..

Big King

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 03:26:40 PM »
I did that and now it runs fine. Thanks.

However, I'm having a little trouble using it. I'm sure it's user error, but could use some help deciphering the "Remaining" components. This is really what I need the tool for so I know what toons need what components when I see the call for a TF or have the reward screen from a Trial.

Here is a snippet from my database, simplified a bit to show my confusion:
Code: [Select]
Slots Share Items: true
Slot: Alpha
Desired ability: SpiritualCoreParagon
Obtained Shards: 0
Obtained Threads: 0
Obtained Items:
    1 SpiritualTotalCoreRevamp
    1 SpiritualTotalRadialRevamp
Remaining items:
  224 Shards
  184 Shards (with minimum crafting)
    4 Dimensional Keystone
    3 Infinite Tessellation
    2 Essence of the Incarnate
    2 Drop of the Well
    2 Ancient Nictus Fragment
    2 Incarnate Infused Nictus
    2 Hero 1 DNA Sample
    2 Vanguard DNA Metamatrix
    2 Notice of the Well
    1 Favor of the Well
    1 Spiritual Core Paragon
I have No Breakdowns and Force Alpha on. In this example, I have 2 Rare Spirituals crafted. I expect it to show the remaining list of things I need for the VR, which are a Dim Key, an Inf Tess (another Dim Key and 8 shards), and a Favor (2 Notices and 32 shards). In summary, I expect the Remaining list to be 2 Dim Keys, 2 Notices, and 40 shards. Why isn't it and what is all those extra components there? They make me think I need to do more ITFs when I don't.

Thanks,
Big King

DeProgrammer

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
Notice of the Well can be crafted with one of each Uncommon plus a bunch of shards, so if you don't want its crafting requirements to show up, then you must uncheck "Craft Rare Components."

Big King

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Re: Titan Waterworks
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 05:18:58 PM »
Thanks, DeProgrammer. Indeed, if I do that, it gives me exactly what I expected. This is a great tool.

1- I did not know you could craft Notices and neither does Paragonwiki apparently. I'll have to look up how many shards that takes. Thanks for the info.
2- So, the Waterworks "Remaining" list includes every permutation of acquiring the Target at once. That was the source of my confusion. I did not realize that the list I included meant I could get a Notice OR 1 of each Uncommon + shards. I see now that when I mark that I obtained a Notice, the count for nearly everything goes down. I was viewing more as a shopping list, thinking I needed to do the TFs listed there. Looks like I'll be running with the Crafting options turned off for the most part.
3- Is there any way to get Waterworks to keep my settings? I have to check "Force Alpha" each time it opens. I also have to go through and manually load my database and then Character each time. Perhaps I can suggest a "load last db/character" option on start up.

Great tool as always from the Titan Network.
BK