Author Topic: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release  (Read 269243 times)

Kyriani

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #160 on: April 17, 2019, 05:39:27 AM »
There's people who will mess with this kind of thing for fun.  The person I knew who ran the RO private server I spent a small amount of time on was one of them.

You get enough of those kinds of people trying to get it running and sharing what they did with each other and suddenly you have solutions, and ways to get it working so that more people can try it.

Heck, I even corrected the hp/sp tables for the newer classes for him, and he probably shared that with the other people running RO private servers.

Like I said before, we've only got half a story here. I need more info before I dust off my pitchfork and light my torch. There's details we don't yet have. Maybe there's a reason the code wasn't just tossed out there for any and every coder to poke a stick at. I don't know. None of us do yet. Maybe all this attention will incentivize the SCORE team to provide some answers. This whole mess is in sore need of context.

Golden Aurora

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #161 on: April 17, 2019, 05:42:54 AM »
I don't think the average person wants Leandro to die or suffer harm. In any group ( Literally. Pick ANY group. ) there will be extremists who should NOT be counted as the voice of the community. The average person is pissed off and grieving anew. That's normal. That's natural. Would you consider JOSHEX the voice of this community? I think not.

Much the same as the person threatening to kill Leandro should not be considered the voice of this community. People are upset over the hubris and way this came out over the years.
The real question though is where do we go from here.

Was this it? The straw that broke our backs after God knows how many years of silence after failed negotiations? Is SEGS the only hope? The server exists. The data exists.
We don't know Leandro's intentions. This is on Tony as he was the contact with Leandro. He was supposed to be the voice here. This is his time to shine. Our game exists, more or less complete.

For the horrible things said about you, Tony, I'm sorry you had to read them. This is a very emotional and important moment for all of us. I wish you luck.

Kyriani

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #162 on: April 17, 2019, 05:47:18 AM »
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.

P51mus

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #163 on: April 17, 2019, 05:52:04 AM »
In some of the other discussion areas there's some weird people who think that literally every successor project and game recovery effort was some kind of smokescreen for this weird private server club. 

The only one we know for sure is connected is Paragon Chat, because Leandro worked on it. I dunno how much was meant as a smokescreen.

And I guess all the ACTUAL lieing that was done around this whole thing really gets the imaginations of the tinfoil hat crowd going.

Noyjitat

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #164 on: April 17, 2019, 05:53:05 AM »
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.
Yeah I don't think anyone ever really cared about getting our characters back. That would simply be a bonus... but it appears that dev that was nice enough to hook them up with the server did want us to have everything back. That person deserves a life time supply of beer and back massages.

hamstrdam

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #165 on: April 17, 2019, 05:58:25 AM »
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.

Same here.  I don't have the time or energy to be pissed that someone has played for the last 6 years while I didn't, just would love the chance to play again.  (Although I do wonder how long it would take some of the people screaming for the game to be thrown open to start crying about how outdated the graphics seem?) Anyway, more power to the ones that are on the secret server.  I never sat at the cool kids table and still don't.

Noyjitat

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #166 on: April 17, 2019, 05:59:41 AM »
In some of the other discussion areas there's some weird people who think that literally every successor project and game recovery effort was some kind of smokescreen for this weird private server club. 

The only one we know for sure is connected is Paragon Chat, because Leandro worked on it. I dunno how much was meant as a smokescreen.

And I guess all the ACTUAL lieing that was done around this whole thing really gets the imaginations of the tinfoil hat crowd going.
I don't think anyone is actually stupid enough to believe city of titans which is being funded out in the open on kickstarter was ever going to be used for anything but developing that game. Same goes for Valiance and the others.

Paragon chat I don't think i'd call it a "smoke screen" more like something to hold you over or to please those types that like to stand around all day under atlas and talk. I've personally found alot of use for icon and paragon chat for my story board recordings. Only remaining wish for paragon chat was a version of it that lets you use icons debug camera and load costume commands. Basically the icon exclusive stuff so I can stop using icon all together haha. I like the fact doors, walk and travel powers work and that I can login multiple characters to paragon chat so it opened up a few other opportunities for me

Felderburg

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #167 on: April 17, 2019, 06:39:24 AM »
Quick edit; you put a lot of no-brainers like "plopping the coh.exe down" that nobody claimed was the case. Dunno why you did this, but it wasn't a health way to explain anything. It's putting words in peoples mouths.

I suspect it's rhetoric like what I've been saying: that SCoRE was supposed to release a playable version of the game when they had one, not keep it to themselves. It does grossly over-simplify things... but given that I do believe the game is playable, certainly playable enough to be released, it doesn't matter how easy or hard it would be for someone to make a server. It'll happen. And there's no reason not to drop what they have on an anonymous torrent, and let the whole world work on getting the kinks out.

It also pains me to see people not only making death threats, but members of this community actively laughing about it and saying he deserves the threats. That's not the community I remember. That's not a community I want to even be a part of. So I hope that most of us remain rational. We can feel angry, we can feel hurt, we can feel betrayed, but we have to remember that we are all human beings, and also... we're supposed to be heroes here.

Heroes don't make, condone, or worse, celebrate, death threats against anyone no matter how bad they might be.

Some of the leakers are people who have been banned from various internet forums, including CoH's official boards. Although they obviously blew the lid off this secret server, I think some of them are using that credibility to call out people they have vendettas against.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:09:46 PM by Felderburg »
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Arkasas

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #168 on: April 17, 2019, 06:40:28 AM »
Maybe there's a reason the code wasn't just tossed out there for any and every coder to poke a stick at. I don't know. None of us do yet. Maybe all this attention will incentivize the SCORE team to provide some answers. This whole mess is in sore need of context.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but isn't it kind of obvious? SCoRE has (as I understand it) illegally-obtained NCSoft property. If it had been publicized earlier, and if NCSoft had learned that they had this, which they more-likely-than-not would have, they would almost certainly drop a C&D on them, and that would be the death of the City. (SEGS aside - but the odds of SEGS getting to I24 in my lifetime are slim, at best, and I'm pretty young among those who played CoX.) It's the first rule of fan projects: don't talk about it until it's done! Once it's done and you release it, they can C&D you all they want, but getting it off the internet will be like playing Whack-a-Mole.

I think the death threats against Leandro are disgusting, as would any sane person, but I think the incredible amount of bad faith being directed towards him is similarly uncalled for. I understand people feel betrayed and resentful, but some of the conclusions being jumped to herein and elsewhere (hereout? hereout should totally be a word...) seem a little far-fetched. We have no idea what he wanted to do with the code or the server, we have no idea if he was actually planning to open it up for the 15th anniversary, and my analysis may well be terribly off-base, but with all he has done for the community, I think he's earned a little faith. All we've got his word versus the word of some random dude - I don't know about you, but I'm choosing to believe Leandro, most of all because it is the only shot, as far as I see, of getting the City back any time soon.

(And before anyone accuses me of brown-nosing or somesuch, I'd like to note that I, being a chronic introvert, yea, even on the internet, am not party to this private server or any other, I would not accept an invitation if Leandro did descend from the heavens and present one to me, and, because of the whole aforementioned C&D thing, which one imagines NCSoft's legal team is drafting as I type, I do think SCoRE should release what they've got, if anything, posthaste.)

Felderburg

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #169 on: April 17, 2019, 06:44:00 AM »
Yes.  Yes there are people that stupid.

I think there were some kickstarter scams, but for the most part when one fails it's just because a dev got in over their head.  I think a lot of people just don't understand how hard game dev is, especially since usually when a failure happens in traditional game dev you just don't hear about it.  The project is scrapped before it's even been announced.

It's worth noting that the close relationship between Paragon Chat and the private server quite naturally leads to speculation that any money that was donated to Titan Network for PChat development might have gone towards this private server. I suspect that any and all money is accounted for, but given the fact that people worked on both projects at the same time, it is reasonable for people to wonder about that particular money trail.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:09:37 PM by Felderburg »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

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weenus

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #170 on: April 17, 2019, 07:27:43 AM »
I still have a lot of questions. Has SCoRE been used to help development of any of the other, more public facing projects at all? Giving them reference or access to the existing code that would be otherwise inaccessible?

Is there any sort of even internal documentation supporting some of the more optimistic claims that this was just a deep alpha test with a definitive plan to release it to a much wider audience?

How playable is the current state of SCoRE because I've seen conflicting accounts...

How does a player access their existing character information if the data is not bundled with any account information from the live service?

olivar

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #171 on: April 17, 2019, 07:35:07 AM »
I still have a lot of questions. Has SCoRE been used to help development of any of the other, more public facing projects at all? Giving them reference or access to the existing code that would be otherwise inaccessible?

Is there any sort of even internal documentation supporting some of the more optimistic claims that this was just a deep alpha test with a definitive plan to release it to a much wider audience?

How playable is the current state of SCoRE because I've seen conflicting accounts...

How does a player access their existing character information if the data is not bundled with any account information from the live service?

Until the people from ScoRE actually come forward with information, we'll just be angrily speculating about what-ifs and what-nots.
I personally would love to see their server be made open for everyone and be able to play again with my characters.
But it all depends on them now, on how they're going to deal with this backlash....if at all...

slickriptide

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #172 on: April 17, 2019, 07:35:25 AM »
. From other accounts, leaks etc the server is not stitched together and works perfectly.

So, here's what you're not understanding. The original stock NCSoft server IS a stitched together mess.

The easiest way to explain it is to look at how Windows is setup on your computer. "Windows" is not a single monithic program, it's a collection of services that all have to run and interact in order to operate successfully. If you go into settings on Windows 10 and look under Services, you'll find a whole list of these pieces that all interoperate to make "Windows".

The CoX "server" wasn't a single program. It was a bunch of servers. An authentication sever. A character server. A map server that managed zones that had players in them. A chat server. The Architect manager. The auction house database. The store, which was a whole other system located on a separate sever run by an ecommerce company that doesn't even exist any more.

If the server being run by Leandro and friends is operational and is not "stitched togethet" then it means that they've been doing what they claimed -- reverse engineering the original funtionality and creating new, better versions that are NOT stitched together multiple spaghetti code processes.

weenus

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #173 on: April 17, 2019, 07:50:01 AM »
So, here's what you're not understanding. The original stock NCSoft server IS a stitched together mess.

I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.

olivar

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #174 on: April 17, 2019, 08:20:12 AM »
I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.
It's more that this is a software paradaigm than a "common thing with games".

Single Responsibility is a doctrine in programming, not to mention that you can scale up these separate servers depending on the load.
It's far easier to upscale your login server for example to handle a surge of signups than having to scale up the entire infrastructure and database just because a few more people are logging in.

source : 7y of game dev

jessejame

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #175 on: April 17, 2019, 09:07:16 AM »
Suppose we get what we want whether it's an open server or the code. Then what? The last time i saw the people I cared about and played with for years was on those stairs right up to the last second. Is there a way of putting the word out to all former players who may not keep tabs on any of this that the game is back? I find it hard to believe that personal information was not transferred but characters were. Couldnt a mass email be sent out?

RheaGhe

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #176 on: April 17, 2019, 09:25:28 AM »
Hey there.

Not a former CoH player to much of any degree. I think I want to post a very generic view though, just in hopes of saying some stuff because watching this unfurl over the past twelve-eighteen hours was a blast. Straight out of a comic book I swear.

First things first, Victoria, this is depending on jurisdiction(My knowledge of EU libel laws is that they are typically draconian but not enforceable outside the EU.) In general though, what he said(To you,) cannot be classified in anyway as libel, or anything really legally actionable, he's not calling for harassment directly or explicitly, he's not inciting violence intentionally, he's not criminally harassing you directly... In fact what he's doing might even be protected under the same laws that exist to protect journalists from retribution.

What is potentially legally actionable is the breaking of his NDA, but then you'd need to substantiate damages. And further substantiate how those damages differed from profit seeking. As for private servers that should definitively operate in a profit neutral territory, seeking profit is generally a no no, which makes damages a hard thing to prove. And I'm getting a bit far from myself. Some advice in general, words are a powerful thing, you and I both know that. And going off half cocked, saying things without fully thinking them through is only going to make you look bad, while the chucklehead laughs at your frustration. What incites you feeds him. Don't play the game with them, break the narrative. Best piece of advice a lawyer ever gave me. Don't ever say you're getting a lawyer, talking to legal, etc. It's a gamble every time you do. And only serves to make it look like you're playing hardball in the situation. Which depending on the situation could make you come off as someone who is being overly forceful for next to no reason. Don't tell them you're getting a lawyer until the moment you've retained council and are filing something with a court.

To others, both in communities abroad looking in, and within these forums, looking around and wondering. There is no way to prove someone has played upon the server, or hasn't. Histrionically forming witch-hunts about and around certain people who may or may not have played on the server accomplishes nothing. Strays from the point of the anger. And serves only to exhaust everyone involved.

Next point.

This really has resembled a giant giant train wreck. And I can appreciate it as a dramallama who likes watching trainwrecks I'm mostly unaffiliated with. However CoH is a game I've been fascinated by and with good reason. The culture that surrounds it is quite broad and diverse, and there really hasn't been a game to capture the same base as it did. Not even Champions which had in my opinion the best shot of it to date.

Certainly, and speaking of the drama though, I find a lot of things start to make a large amount of sense in the community as I've observed. As I've been looking in on it maybe every year for the last 4 years and every 6 months since SEGS started to be a realized thing with 0.3? I think... There was always a slight sort of lethargy about the community, and an almost lack of eagerness in it's movers and shakers, at least that I saw on places like this and the subreddit, whenever the possibility of emulation and server recovery were mentioned. A kind of short period of "Oh well that's nice, carry on." Whenever SEGS had something new built. This along with the Paragon Chat client being the "best" implementation so far of a server recreation. When a game like SWGEmu had a massive fan support structure spring up almost immediately, with dedicated Devs working whenever they could. SEGS didn't, that I could see have that base. And it always struck me as odd. I used to recall to a friend of mine, when we bemoan the lack of a good Supers MMO. That this type of thing not happening made no sense. Even discounting SWGEmu, which is building SWG server code from scratch essentially. You had the fortuitousness of SWLegends, which was built from a lucky find of source code, kind of like Leandro has described happening in the PCGamer article. It made no sense to me, personally, that something like either of those two projects wouldn't have happened. Especially given how sudden the shut down was. Especially given the amount of successor projects. Especially given how CoH was more modern of an MMO than classic pre-NGE SWG was.

Finally, I'd like to say, that the community as I see it is a vibrant and wonderful place, and I'm sorry for this trainwreck having occured. Here's hoping when the dust settles, you all will have a relatively easy time settling down and not stare at each other with distrust. Wondering who might have a score to settle.

Just my Two Cents.

Golden Aurora

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #177 on: April 17, 2019, 09:28:57 AM »
Also Victoria, could you clarify what you meant by this post: https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.msg184432#msg184432

You wrote: "Having had the fortune to be on some of that testing....yeah.  Seriously, folks, there are still plenty of people in the US that believe:

In fairies.
In a flat-earth.
That the moon-landings were a hoax.
That the Royal Family of Great Britain is composed of shape-shifting lizard people. 

So out of all the thousands of people that were passionate about City, there were bound to be a handful who'd believe in private servers that some mysterious "elite" were keeping them out of."

I'm not starting a witch hunt. I'm merely curious. Being as that post came right after Leandro's on the subject, you either were extremely unfortunate in timing and phrasing with testing, or your definition of testing includes playing on those private servers which surely don't exist. I hope it was just unfortunate timing and phrasing and you were testing paragon chat or something.

Edit: If the context was about paragon chat, I apologize in advance.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 10:00:19 AM by Golden Aurora »

P51mus

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #178 on: April 17, 2019, 09:42:41 AM »
What is potentially legally actionable is the breaking of his NDA,

I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?

weenus

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #179 on: April 17, 2019, 09:48:53 AM »
I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?

Imagine if your weed man made you sign an NDA.