Author Topic: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release  (Read 262137 times)

RheaGhe

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #180 on: April 17, 2019, 09:52:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?

Abandonware is a gray area legally.

Private servers are relatively gray as well.

Basically it's only illegal if the IP holder, or presumable person taking legal action declares it's right or otherwise enforces it's ownership. And then a court calls it illegal. More than that, your contract has to be specifically called out by a judge or jury as being illegal to be nullified.  And again, private servers are a nebulous area. And no private server owner or staff member wants to be the person taken to court over running one, and ruin it for literally everyone else running or playing them.

So as an example, when I was 16, I signed and my parents agreed upon my first NDA(I was under the age of 18 so I could not sign a contract of my own volition in my jurisdiction). For a film project, that project was later found to be infringing upon someones trademark or possibly lost the rights to it. The project was cancelled in effect. And I was not released from that NDA till I was 22, and my five year term on my NDA had passed.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #181 on: April 17, 2019, 10:06:29 AM »
Also Victoria, could you clarify what you meant by this post: https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.msg184432#msg184432

You wrote: "Having had the fortune to be on some of that testing....yeah.  Seriously, folks, there are still plenty of people in the US that believe:



It was, very very clearly, about Paragon Chat.  Leo was helping me learn to demoedit, and decided I would make a good Paragon Chat beta tester.
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summers

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #182 on: April 17, 2019, 10:20:21 AM »
I just have to get this rambling thing off my chest, this has eaten me up all day now.

I understand why some decisions were made. There was a real fear that who knows what kind of legal action could happen. That doesn't mean that I agree with these decisions though...

I wish a different decision was made. I think it's becoming clear that a lot of people feel very betrayed, that there was gaslighting going on at an incredible and organised scale, that people from many places used authority to conspire and ban others who loved the same thing they did, that denied others the same joy they they were keeping from them.

I wish Leandro and others a safe time through this. The internet is a crazy dumping ground and, while I think they have done a terrible thing, the very thought that people could threaten them or their family is appalling.

I don't know how everything is working with the financial side of things; be it donations made that might have gone elsewhere, or for the many people developing other projects who have put their heart and soul into it and it appears their work may be for naught. For those developing similar endeavors it must be utterly heartbreaking.

Personally I feel very hurt, I have lurked for years, I have always been saddened by the loss of a game I have loved so much, and I have done my very best to put it behind me (and fail to do so) - and to know that I was actively lied to and for perhaps years people were playing the game I cared so much for... it doesn't feel good.

Whatever happens next, this will only build pressure until it is addressed. I hope that Leandro and others can make a public statement, that they can put it out in the open and release the code that lets everyone enjoy the game. I hope that they are also left in peace and, letting bygones be bygones, are credited for keeping COX alive despite what I think have been missteps on their behalf.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #183 on: April 17, 2019, 10:33:15 AM »
I dunno, I find it hard to believe this would have benefited any of us that aren't involved with the secret server already.  Yes, its good news that the code still exists.  But it sounds like it has existed for 6 years and hasn't helped any of us who miss the game, even through the new efforts.  If they weren't exposed I don't know how many more years this server would remain a secret, it may have never come out.

I like to believe this was all for the good of the community, but how many more years was this going to be a secret for? 5? 10?  What's even the point after 17 years of the game being shut down.  I get why they kept it a secret.  Because they wanted to keep playing and not have it taken away from them.  But I don't believe at all that keeping it a secret was for the good of the community, I think it was for the good of themselves.  I'll happily be proven wrong if this somehow leads to me being able to play the game again.  But currently, it feels like NCSoft and SCORE are both not allowing me to play a game I love.

I honestly don't know any of the people involved with SCORE.  And I am sure they are nice people and this wasn't intended to be malicious.  But it doesn't make me feel any better knowing this game we all love has been around for years in secret.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 11:54:55 AM by Taceus Jiwede »

FlyingCarcass

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #184 on: April 17, 2019, 10:37:35 AM »
So much for checking out this site every couple of days for the past few years in the vain hope of news regarding a playable version of CoH.  :-\

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #185 on: April 17, 2019, 11:02:18 AM »
So much for checking out this site every couple of days for the past few years in the vain hope of news regarding a playable version of CoH.  :-\

Indeed, at least up until yesterday if you had heard of SCORE like myself you could sit around thinking a team is still putting in work behind the scenes to make an emulator but instead we find out a fully playable server exists and is super secret.

Lots of mixed feelings, been part of this "Titan Network" (hell I'm user #38) community before it was even Titan, if I recall correctly CIT had its own boards that I use to frequent at the time, or maybe it was MIDs? either way there was something before this... I don't know where I was going with that...

I guess it hurts coming to the place SCoRE used as its home at one point that nothing was even stated that the effort to make an emulator had been stopped or maybe it never was and work has been going on to get it in a state that its easy to run, since as other posts have stated and from what I recall the devs did state the server stuff was quite a nightmare.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 11:20:44 AM by Gun-Nut »
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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #186 on: April 17, 2019, 12:17:15 PM »
First off - thanks to the Titan Forum devs for opening up this topic and allowing for the users to openly discuss it. I know that the forum policy regarding that had to be changed in order to allow this, and I think it was a smart move. So, thank you.

Much like the rest of the community, I'm pretty conflicted. I think my most surface-level thoughts/reactions to it have been mostly frustration? These people had a fully-functioning private server running right under our noses for 6 years, and kept it alllllll to themselves. While they knew that such a large portion of the community was still hurting, they choose to take the route of "Yeah, so that sucks that you guys can't play the game anymore... but we can, and we will, and we can't let you play it too because then we might not be able to play it. So, sorry."

I'm not entirely sure I believe Leandro when he says he had intentions of going live with it, or converting it to a more 'public' status server sometime in the future. I also think he was kiiiiiinda using the "Well everyone knew about SCORE!" as his scapegoat, and I don't think most people are buying that (or, rather, allowing him to get away with this on those grounds). I don't know who he is, and I'm not sure what I believe.

....But on the other hand. I dunno - if someone offered me the 'golden ticket', I would be hella tempted. So, factoring that in, I can only be so mad at the private server players. Ultimately, I know I would not have played on it (please note: I was never a private server player, was never offered - I don't even use Reddit haha) but I understand the allure for sure. And if I were to of said yes, I would have ABSOLUTELY felt super gross about it? I think one of the two former private server players who came out publicly - the player's account name on Facebook was Destiny something - shared that same sentiment. They knew that they were doing something that was 'unfair', like being in a village that's been without water for yeeeeeears but a few houses had managed to find a hidden pipe that had a lifetime supply of Evian running through it, and instead of sharing it with everyone and dealing with whatever ramifications that came with... they opted to not tell anyone, and reap the benefits quietly amongst themselves.

Speaking of ramifications, I think that's one piece to this that I'm honestly clueless about - will NCSoft take legal action? Will they not? I have zero idea. Based off of how they handled the COH shutdown, all I really know of them (as a company) is that they SEEM petty AF and really prideful/stubborn in how they carry out their business. So, with that in mind, I'm inclined to think that they might. But on the other hand... you've GOTTA ask if this would even be worth it to pursue legally? Taking legal action WOULD cost them money, and whose to know if they could even financially benefit (in the LONG RUN) from taking legal action against Leandro et al.

I think the one fairly laaaaarge silver lining that I have with all of this is just simply knowing that the server, disc image, and data is ALIVE. That NCSoft didn't bury that into the ground and throw away the key post-shut down like they tried to convince us they did. Someone on Paragon Chat pointed out to me the other day that when a private server is created after a deceased game, it's like posting a picture on the Internet - once it's out there, it's pretty much out there. It's going to be VERY difficult for NCSoft to put a lid on something like this. I would bet my left AND right leg(s) that sooooomeone has already gotten off with any/all info they would need to re-create another private server should NCSoft get this current one shut down. They have to know that they can't stop this train from moving now.

I don't think Leandro and the private server group 'owed it' to the community to open it up to everyone, and then deal with whatever legal repercussions came with that - but, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been the right thing to do.

Personally speaking, I think this is the best news we've had in a WHILE in regards to playing COH again, or getting the game back. People seem to think that this is only going to further diminish our chances, and I absolutely think the opposite. With all the press and attention this is getting, the pressure is ON. The community is on fire, and they /will/ be heard. Something is going to give here. I can feel it.

...And I feel like it will be for the better.  ;)
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Mister Hassenpheffer

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #187 on: April 17, 2019, 12:19:58 PM »

Maybe Tony can pull a rabbit out of his hat or something.


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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #188 on: April 17, 2019, 12:46:50 PM »
The rhetoric that "oh the code was a mess" is getting really old. To honestly believe SCORE or Leo are the only people on this planet capable of sorting and running a private server is a complete farce. I get why they chose to keep it in secret while working on it. NCsoft is a corporation that will keep its own interests in mind ahead of anything else. Nobody should be questioning that and if they are they're foolish. The problem front and center is proof was provided of a fully functioning city of heroes private server and the only answer we've been given is "It's a secret and will remain that way". Furthering, the leaker be it untrustworthy or not has made claims on people openly who have chosen either to stay silent about those claims or deny them turning the entire situation into he said she said. Nobody can figure out who to trust anymore and when people give flimsy excuses like "the code is a mess" it only makes it look worse.

The facts.

- Functioning private server has existed for some time now.

- People were chosen to join it while others were purposely mislead

- Leo has gone on record to claim it was going to be released in only a couple weeks for everyone to enjoy but now is not (His statement about it being ready in only a couple weeks completely shatters any argument about it being unfinished.)

These are undisputed truths that have come out and honestly the only things worth discussion at this point. Hear say about who was where is becoming tiring and so is the idea that the server would be impossible for others to run.

Tahquitz

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #189 on: April 17, 2019, 12:51:04 PM »
Good morning from the Pacific.

A brief reminder - I've done some pruning this morning.  Discussion about the private server itself specifically will be removed.  This includes, but is not limited to: invites, queries or accusations of who is in it (no witch hunts, please), or any links to content that supposedly comes from it. 

Discuss the news, sure.  Ask questions, but understand not all of them will get answers or may get speculative replies from people who know nothing (count me in that camp.) But our policies have not changed.
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Fixxer

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #190 on: April 17, 2019, 01:07:28 PM »
It's interesting that some people are allowed to discuss the private server... while others get mod smacked.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #191 on: April 17, 2019, 01:12:42 PM »
It's worth noting that the close relationship between Paragon Chat and the private server quite naturally leads to speculation that any money that was donated to Titan Network for PChat development might have gone towards this private server. I suspect that any and all money is accounted for, but given the fact that people worked on both projects at the same time, it is reasonable for people to wonder about that particular money trail.

Money that was donated to Titan Network for PC Chat development?  What?

Did you give money to Titan Network thinking they were involved in PC Chat development?  I thought it was made clear many multiple times that there was no direct connection between Titan Network and PC Chat.  Who did you give money to?
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therain93

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #192 on: April 17, 2019, 01:14:15 PM »
The rhetoric that "oh the code was a mess" is getting really old. To honestly believe SCORE or Leo are the only people on this planet capable of sorting and running a private server is a complete farce. I get why they chose to keep it in secret while working on it. NCsoft is a corporation that will keep its own interests in mind ahead of anything else. Nobody should be questioning that and if they are they're foolish. The problem front and center is proof was provided of a fully functioning city of heroes private server and the only answer we've been given is "It's a secret and will remain that way". Furthering, the leaker be it untrustworthy or not has made claims on people openly who have chosen either to stay silent about those claims or deny them turning the entire situation into he said she said. Nobody can figure out who to trust anymore and when people give flimsy excuses like "the code is a mess" it only makes it look worse.

The facts.

- Functioning private server has existed for some time now.

- People were chosen to join it while others were purposely mislead

- Leo has gone on record to claim it was going to be released in only a couple weeks for everyone to enjoy but now is not (His statement about it being ready in only a couple weeks completely shatters any argument about it being unfinished.)

These are undisputed truths that have come out and honestly the only things worth discussion at this point. Hear say about who was where is becoming tiring and so is the idea that the server would be impossible for others to run.


While I am dead set against releasing any code that may be NCsofts, it would be sweet justice if Leandro turned around ans said,  "Okay, here's the original code,  but you get nothing the SCORE team has developed since,  because you've been, irrational, petulant,  overly entitled,  self-righteous, and outright threatening. " 


Then we can watch all of these experts coming out of the wood work claiming if the code is free they can launch a bunch of servers. Let's see just how long it takes them to get a reusable, packaged server up and running.    I mean,  the skillsets of people like Codewalker, Leandro, et al. are pretty minimum wage,  amiright? Maybe Super Atom can team up with Joshex to double their productivity level?


But seriously,  folks need to calm down because mitch if the reaction is hysterical and embarrassing.
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TonyV

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #193 on: April 17, 2019, 01:17:02 PM »
Folks, I've been removing posts I deem abusive or destructive last night and today. I want to remind everyone to be civil. If you want to talk about how you feel about the situation, fine. But if you want to post rants personally attacking Leandro, SCoRE, or anyone else, or try to propagate baseless speculation, your post is going to be nuked.

I apologize for being cynical, but it's about all I can be because the entire situation is extremely cynical. It feels as though the overall CoX community has had a pretty clear caste system in play with what is more or less, a first class citizen group who invited who they deemed worth from the unwashed masses. It's frustrating to say the least.

...And this is why.

The CoX community DOES NOT have a "caste system." Re-read my On "private servers" post again:

In reality, if you're here, as far as I'm concerned, you're part of the "in" crowd, period, end of story.

Now, having said all of that, I have consistently said that there is a possibility that one of the devs might have managed to get their hands on the code before the shutdown.  I'll even concede that there might be a private server out there.  If so, then more power to them, and I hope that eventually whoever has access to the code will see fit to release it.  I have also repeatedly acknowledged that there is a team out there I've been referring to SCoRE who has been working on reverse engineering a server, and while I know that it's been a long time and some folks have lost faith that they're making any progress, they ARE still working on it, and they ARE still making progress to the point where I've seen some simple interactions happening.  If you're wondering why they won't release their work, it's mainly because it is at a VERY early stage, it's VERY difficult to get it configured correctly, and they would much rather spend their time working on coding than having to worry about releasing stuff, supporting it, getting an inevitable flood of questions about "how do I set this up?" (only to be disappointed to find out that it takes expensive development software), and getting an inevitable flood of complaints that it's not working right and how much their progress sucks so far.  (Which was yet another thread posted a few days ago that we deleted, but I digress...)  And not to put too fine a point on it, the reason that team is highly encouraged to maintain radio silence on their efforts is precisely because of what is going on over on Facebook right now, baseless rumors and allegations that are completely unconstructive based on what some people think (but who don't actually know) what is going on.

So in short, is there a private server?  Not that I know of, although it is still being worked on.  Even if there is, it is totally irrelevant, because whoever is running it obviously doesn't want it released to the community-at-large for what is hopefully a really damn good obvious reason.  I know that if I were running such a server, seeing the noise that is being made over these allegations, along with the threats that are being made and the unbridled sense of entitlement that is being conveyed, along with the legal threat of what would happen if it got out into the wild, would certainly turn me off of the prospect of releasing the software.  In short, if there is such a thing, what's going on over on Facebook is likely driving those people deeper underground, not encouraging them to release it to the community.

To the folks who are spreading this crap around on Facebook, if you want something constructive to do instead, support the community instead of trying to tear it apart.  Express support for SCoRE, or participate in one of the successor projects, or even snag a copy of Icon and make some videos to entertain the community without the pretense of there being a private server.

This holds true today just as much as it did then. The only difference is that now we know there's a private server. Well, bully for them. I'm not jealous of the people who have been playing on it, because I personally am no worse off than I was this time last week. When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.

At any rate, this...

There are aspects that I completely understand, and there are aspects of it that were extremely cynical on the part of those involved, such as people who are in the know about an actively working private server enforcing "no private server discussion" on forums and subreddits, people actively involved in running SCoRE being involved in other efforts that have existed as little more than a placating romparoom for the members of this community not deemed worthy of access to the actual game...

...was the main reason I'm replying this morning.

I can't speak for subreddits, but the Titan Network, and I in particular, have not been enforcing a "no private server discussion" policy because we're "in on" a private server. If you want to know why we've enforced that policy, it is PRECISELY because of what's going on right here, right now. Forget the totally bogus allegations I've seen over the years. Even around this event, in which there has proven to be a core of truth, the amount of lies and misinformation about us (the Titan Network), SEGS, City of Titans, and numerous other community members and leaders has been flabbergasting. I got accused of being "in hiding" yesterday, and I'm like, wait, what? I have been posting and replying in various social media platforms and responding to people on Discord almost constantly since Sunday afternoon.

I have screenshots of people in Discord saying that CoT was just a front to funnel money to the private server project. Even the guy who posted the video that started this whole brouhaha initially said that SEGS was behind the private server project, throwing a crapton of flak their way. As I type this, Leandro is being doxxed and receiving death threats.

As for the "placating romparoom" you referred to, I take STRONG exception to that, and frankly, it pisses me off and it pisses on the enormous amount of time, effort, and energy that people who have NOTHING to do with the private server have put into building, testing, and deploying Paragon Chat. I personally pay for the server on which the XMPP service is hosted out of my OWN pocket every month, and just for the record, I am NOT a member of SCoRE, I don't play on any private servers out there, and I am in NO WAY motivated to keep it up and going as any kind of "front" or "distraction" for anyone else.

But while a small group of people who have been posting conspiracy crap for years are taking a victory lap feeling all vindicated that, like a blind hog, they managed to find one acorn, those are the kinds of baseless allegations and lies--again even around a nugget of truth--that we're having to put up with.

I get that you're upset. I get that you're mad. But other people are getting hurt, people who have nothing to do with any private server, people who have busted their butts trying to provide a community where EVERYONE feels welcome.

So while we've allowed more leeway in this thread lately due to getting how people are feeling, this forum is not a free-for-all where people can feel free to come in and treat Leandro, or anyone else, like scum. We are not going to continue allowing people to ascribe unfounded malicious motives to those who have been working on ANY community-related project, INCLUDING SCoRE or any other private server-related mess.

You want to wonder why they haven't released code? Fine. But you want to come in here and accuse them of not doing so because they're elitist pricks who for some insane reason have secretly been working to set up a gated community of "haves"? Take it somewhere else. There are plenty of other forums and Facebook pages where the moderators have decided to let anything go, places that have devolved into cesspools of hate and vitriol.

I get your cynicism, I really, really do. But this isn't a place to take that cynicism and project it as far and wide as possible, hoping it takes hold and infects everyone else. If that were the case, we never would have survived the shutdown because believe you me, there was a LOT of cynicism back then, too. This a place where we come together to get over our cynicism, where we pull together--and yes, that means even the people who have been on the private server--as a community. Hell, we're talking about THREE THOUSAND people, undoubtedly many of whom have been on here frequently continuing to prop up the community as SCoRE has been working on a working server, carrying everyone through some bad times until hopefully we can all enjoy the fruits of their labors. (And no, I'm not going to entertain this notion that "they never intended to release the game," that's ludicrous.)

They could have simply gone away to live in their "gated community" and chose not to. Why? Because as I said in my "On 'private servers'" thread above, there IS NO gated community here. There is no caste system. There are no "haves" and "have-nots," there's just us. ALL of us.

If anyone can't abide by that, then they're choosing to isolate themselves from the community, not us. And I think that's a shame, but again, we're not going to allow anyone to use these forums to try to make this whole "caste system" foolishness a self-fulfilling prophesy.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #194 on: April 17, 2019, 01:29:32 PM »
I actually think people have a very valid reason for being upset. A private server has been up and running for 6+ years. Many forumites have been enjoying the ability to play on said server while many more have not. While I would never condone actual threats of violence - I still think everyone who was/is a fan of CoH has an absolute right to feel betrayed...furious...and utterly pissed off at those who have been lying to them for years. There is no sugar coating that many on these forums have been duped by people they thought were friends. Most people on these forums would have jumped at the ability to play on the private server and would have paid good money to do so.


I'm not saying I was aware of the server, but if I were and if I knew I had to keep it a secret... I would not have played. I am just not that selfish. I am not that hypocritical that I would come on here and deny the existence of something like that while actually playing on it. I find that those who did are completely disgusting and that such behavior is the antithesis of what the CoH community was supposed to have been about.

jessejame

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #195 on: April 17, 2019, 01:33:30 PM »
Tony brings up a good point. I haven't kept up with the community but if Leo really didnt care then why would he have contributed to the community at all?

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #196 on: April 17, 2019, 02:03:41 PM »
I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.

Just to punctuate what @Olivar noted - The point was not that it was bad for the original server to be designed as a bunch of services, or that a current server would not be designed that way; it was that there was a whole bunch of moving wheels and any one of them failing to move correctly could stop the whole vehicle.

Take the store as an example. The store was not a part of the server at all. It was an outside e-commerce site that the client and server communicated with to learn what premium/loyalty-rewards content the player was entitled to use. All of that vaporized the day the servers closed. Even if you had an otherwise working client/server for the game, you would NOT have any of the code related to the store aside from possibly the communication protocols used to send queries and purchases requests to it.

That's just one of the most obvious problems with trying to take a snapshot of the server and get it running.

Whatever Leandro has/had, if he had "just released it", most people would not have been in a position to do anything useful with it.

As for what he has - There's precious little hard evidence about what exactly that is. Despite what so many people are assuming, we don't know that he has source code. From what we've been told, NCSoft themselves were unable to come up with source code for the server. Leandro might well be in the same boat as NCSoft, in that someone gave him a working executable server installation, copied from an actual server (as opposed to a development machine with source files) but no actual source code. The only way to create an emulator would be to run the original server and duplicate its functionality.

If he does have source code, we don't know which version of the server it is. Cryptic themselves once accidentally published the source code of the game. The story is that they discovered the error and got rid of all but one copy and they bribed that person who got it to delete it by giving him a lifetime sub or some such. If THAT source code was in someone's hands, it would help that person understand generally how the server worked, but it would not allow him to compile an I-24 server or even contain any newer content at all.

In short - there are still too many questions to pull out the pitchforks. If its true that they were going to announce their emulator in just a couple of weeks, then it's REALLY unfortunate that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer decided that now was the time to become a freedom fighter seeking to free /r/CityofHeroes from its tyrannical oppressors.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #197 on: April 17, 2019, 02:16:10 PM »

 When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.


Thank you for that, Tony, I completely agree.  I've been feeling bursts of rage on this subject but not for people involved in the SCoRE work... for the people who are gibbering insanely with rage for not being told about the Secret work. 

I haven't dived into this "up and running for 6 years!" stuff, so I'm not sure what has been running, or in what condition, or with what capacity.  I feel absolutely certain that nobody "in the community" has any "right" to anything from anybody -- especially from people who have put work into learning, running, and improving the software involved with CoH -- if you've sat down and worked and taught yourself enough about the client to add rooms to Pargon chat maps -- for example, IMHO you've got some basis to weigh in on development efforts.  And if not, you're waiting for somebody to give you something.

Years ago I jokingly warned somebody in a recovery effort that the reward for anybody learning that they were making progress would be piles of abuse for them not doing enough or not going faster or not doing whatever the specific person wanted them to do.  Yeah.

I'm thrilled that anybody has been able to play the game, more thrilled that the game exists in a form that can be played, even more thrilled that all those people who said "If I can't have my characters with my stuff then I don't ever want to play again" actually have at least a possibility of getting that (personally I'd just rebuild).

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Leandro (and Xs) have needed a playing population on their server in order to develop and test.  I sincerely hope that they've distributed copies to multiple people and sources to protect against loss, but I don't believe that anybody has any right to tell them how to deal with this.  And the idea that they've somehow been villainous in this strikes me as flat-out nuts.
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TonyV

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #198 on: April 17, 2019, 02:19:57 PM »
I actually think people have a very valid reason for being upset...

That's fine. We disagree on how upset people should be about it, and we probably disagree on the level of egregiousness of various people's sins. And I've always said, in this context and in others, that no one gets to tell you his you must feel about any given situation. You have the absolute right to feel however you feel.

But there is a huge difference between feeling angry and taking actions to make everyone else feel angry. There's a huge difference between feeling betrayed and trying to incite others to act on your feeling of betrayal.

One, we allow leeway in discussing here on the Titan forums. The latter, the part where people get destructive to the community, we don't.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #199 on: April 17, 2019, 02:25:18 PM »
That's fine. We disagree on how upset people should be about it, and we probably disagree on the level of egregiousness of various people's sins. And I've always said, in this context and in others, that no one gets to tell you his you must feel about any given situation. You have the absolute right to feel however you feel.

But there is a huge difference between feeling angry and taking actions to make everyone else feel angry. There's a huge difference between feeling betrayed and trying to incite others to act on your feeling of betrayal.

One, we allow leeway in discussing here on the Titan forums. The latter, the part where people get destructive to the community, we don't.


As long as this works both ways. Theres been a lot of attacking of people just expressing frustration. I don't think its particularly healthy to condem anyone, including the leaker. If its not done both ways, it begins to look like misdirection and censorship. I haven't seen the mods censor anyone who hasn't deserved it, so this appears to be the case so far.