New Dawn of Justice Trailer

[CG]

I think these kinds of movies are practically immune to reviews.  The early reviews for Avengers Age of Ultron were not kind, and even I think it was a weaker movie than the first Avengers, but it still made 1.4 billion in total box office (8% less than the 1.5 billion of the first Avengers, but still plenty successful overall) and all the "Marvel has finally lost it" commentary did exactly zilch to Marvel's momentum.

I would like to draw some additional discussion to the difference between bad early reviews for Age of Ultron and BvS.  As you mention, the Marvel movie franchise had momentum at the time AoU came out.  I would argue that the DC Cinematic Universe does not at this point.  Man of Steel was somewhat polarizing and the people who didn't like MoS probably won't be heading into BvS if it's got bad reviews (ie. more of the same as MoS). 

Your average movie goer doesn't have a half dozen previous good films to motivate them to give one with bad reviews a try.

I guess we'll see. 

[doc7924]

I think to think of it as "help" more than "credit."  In order for something to be plausible, or to be more precise in order for it not to be implausible, its only necessary that there exists a reasonable explanation that fits all the facts.  Its not necessary that the creators presumed it or believed it or were even aware of it, only that they did not explicitly disavow or contradict it in their content.

I like to think of myself as a "constructive nitpicker."  Its a personal preference of mine that on the one hand I like to think about things in a way you might call nit-picking.  But I like to take those nitpicks and see if there's a way to turn them on their head and make them strengthen rather than weaken the original content.  The Peter David novel Vendetta is something I consider a commercial example of this kind of thinking.  It starts by looking at the Trek TOS episode The Doomsday Machine and asks a pretty simple question: if the Doomsday Machine moves around so slowly, how could it come from another galaxy as Spock suggests in that episode?  And the answer is: it really shouldn't have: it would take too long and there's no way for it to fuel itself during the trip between the galaxies.  That seems to be a nit pick plot hole.  But what if that nitpick is flipped upside down: what would explain those facts?  What if it came from outside the galaxy not because it came from another galaxy but because it had been put there from originally inside our galaxy?  Let's keep going: maybe it was put there because its creators were essentially throwing it away.  Why?  Maybe because it was a prototype: clearly it wasn't a very good Doomsday Machine in actuality: although it did destroy many planets and wrecked havoc with two starships, really as a true Doomsday weapon it wasn't difficult to destroy.  A really big fusion bomb thrown down its maw did it: during a full-scale interstellar war that wouldn't be considered a big price to pay to take that thing down.

Okay, so we have a prototype weapon that moves around slowly and destroys whole planets, mostly ignores small warships, has an impenetrable hull, no crew, and a single powerful antiproton weapon.  What sort of foe would this be useful against?  How about the Borg?  The Borg (at least as originally envisioned) didn't care about individuals, didn't fly around in small warships, primarily targeted technology and planetary cultures, used high technology cutting beams to slice up interesting technology, and assimilated the beings of the cultures it tried to absorb.  The Doomsday Machine seems almost specifically designed to be an antiborg weapon in retrospect.  Its design is actually kind of silly if its enemies were anything like the Federation: its slow enough to allow its enemies to mount a defense, and its weaponry, outside of surprise, its not really good at destroying fleets of enemy warships.  But against the Borg, that usually come at you one at a time in large colony ships?  And assimilate whole planets? 

Once you take the nitpicks apart about how the Doomsday Machine worked, how it functioned, how it moved, how it attacked, what its weaknesses were, and instead of saying its nonsensical ask instead what circumstance would make those actually make sense, an interesting idea emerges.  That's what I consider constructive nitpicking.  We *know* the writers of the Doomsday Machine were not thinking about the Borg for obvious reasons.  But that doesn't mean there's no value to thinking it for them.

Funny you should bring that up. There was an old TNG novel where they found a 2nd Doomsday Machine and it was discovered they were in fact created to fight the Borg.

[Arcana]

Funny you should bring that up. There was an old TNG novel where they found a 2nd Doomsday Machine and it was discovered they were in fact created to fight the Borg.

Err...

[Arcana]

I would like to draw some additional discussion to the difference between bad early reviews for Age of Ultron and BvS.  As you mention, the Marvel movie franchise had momentum at the time AoU came out.  I would argue that the DC Cinematic Universe does not at this point.  Man of Steel was somewhat polarizing and the people who didn't like MoS probably won't be heading into BvS if it's got bad reviews (ie. more of the same as MoS). 

Your average movie goer doesn't have a half dozen previous good films to motivate them to give one with bad reviews a try.

I guess we'll see.

DC clearly doesn't have the established track record Marvel has in making movies that movie audiences ultimately find entertaining.  But I think early reviews can have their biggest effect in slowing down the flood of audiences in the first week or so, and it seems from the data being tossed around that advance ticket sales for BvS are not low or slowing due to mixed reviews.  I suspect the core audience that was going to see BvS was going to see it come hell or high water, even if only to not be left out of the opportunity to slam it early, and that's enough people to create its own pocket of momentum to make BvS an event movie for general audiences to want to check out.

Now, if that first wave of audiences come out of the theater shaking their heads, then *that's* when the movie can get hit hard.  In fact, for a blockbuster-class movie like this, if even the *Friday's* audience is too meh about it that can hurt the rest of the weekend, because you don't get billion dollar revenue from people who decide they can go see it after the crowds die down.  You need people going to see it right away, then going back and dragging their less enthusiastic friends, and keeping the theaters packed for weeks.

[hurple]

I would like to draw some additional discussion to the difference between bad early reviews for Age of Ultron and BvS.  As you mention, the Marvel movie franchise had momentum at the time AoU came out.  I would argue that the DC Cinematic Universe does not at this point.  Man of Steel was somewhat polarizing and the people who didn't like MoS probably won't be heading into BvS if it's got bad reviews (ie. more of the same as MoS). 

Your average movie goer doesn't have a half dozen previous good films to motivate them to give one with bad reviews a try.

I guess we'll see.

Oh, I DESPISED Man of Steel.  And, Dark Knight Rises, too.  And, I plan on seeing this piece of garbage as soon as possible.  I can't wait to revel in the train-wreck that is this movie!  I'm just hoping it's Plan 9 level horrible.  That would be great!

I've never been this excited to see anything go down in flames as much as this.

Why?  Because I'm a life-long, die-hard DC fan.  And these movies are like the evil mirror universe version of a DC movie.

[Golden Girl]

Oh, I DESPISED Man of Steel.  And, Dark Knight Rises, too.  And, I plan on seeing this piece of garbage as soon as possible.  I can't wait to revel in the train-wreck that is this movie!  I'm just hoping it's Plan 9 level horrible.  That would be great!

I've never been this excited to see anything go down in flames as much as this.

Why?  Because I'm a life-long, die-hard DC fan.  And these movies are like the evil mirror universe version of a DC movie.

Zach Snyder is an abomination, and his desecration of DC is cultural vandalism - he needs to go, and there needs to be a full reboot.

[Arcana]

Zach Snyder is an abomination, and his desecration of DC is cultural vandalism - he needs to go, and there needs to be a full reboot.

WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN

[CG]

Oh, I DESPISED Man of Steel.  And, Dark Knight Rises, too.  And, I plan on seeing this piece of garbage as soon as possible.  I can't wait to revel in the train-wreck that is this movie!  I'm just hoping it's Plan 9 level horrible.  That would be great!

I've never been this excited to see anything go down in flames as much as this.

Why?  Because I'm a life-long, die-hard DC fan.  And these movies are like the evil mirror universe version of a DC movie.

The best way to tell WB that you don't want more of the current DC direction is to not give them any money. Wait for it to be at the library.

[doc7924]

Err...

Heh. That's what I get for skimming the posts. I didn't see you were talking about the book.

[Vee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

made me chuckle

[Arcana]

When I posted that rottentomatoes showed an 82% audience rating, there were about 124,000 audience ratings by my recollection.  The rating is now 74% with about 138,000 ratings.  That's ... mathematically interesting.

[Golden Girl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

made me chuckle

The memes that will come out of the tidal wave of mockery and contempt that's flooding over this turkey will be the only worthwhile part of it - apart from the firing of Snyder and rebooting of the DC movies.

[saipaman]

I had the misfortune to see 'Dawn of Justice' last night.

How can a movie with so little actual content take so very long to present it?

[Golden Girl]

I had the misfortune to see this 'Dawn of Justice' last night.

How can a movie with so little actual content take so very long to present it?

The answer is "Snyder" - it always is when asking how a DC move could be so dreadful.

[Nos482]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXfv25xJUw&feature=youtu.be

made me chuckle

Made me mostly feel bad for Ben.

[Arcana]

The memes that will come out of the tidal wave of mockery and contempt that's flooding over this turkey will be the only worthwhile part of it - apart from the firing of Snyder and rebooting of the DC movies.

Current tracking from thursday night sales suggest an opening in the vicinity of $150 - $160 million, and that projects out to $400-$500 million domestic.  Depending on how strong it plays internationally, it has a shot at $800-$900 million total.  That's not enough below expectations to cause Warner to toss out their entire future movie line up and start from scratch.  And I doubt they'd fire Snyder this deep in the process.  If the reviews cause Warner to do anything, it will probably be to get a producer with a much shorter leash for Snyder on JL.

Except I'm not even sure in what direction they could pull the leash.  Until I see the movie this weekend I can only speculate, but I think the common thread that links most of the reviews together is that the movie tries too hard to do too much and rewrite too much history and expectations, and that sounds more like studio direction.  It is no secret that DC is trying to play catch up with Marvel, and they seem to be doing it in the worst possible way: by trying to short cut the process and get to JL as quickly as possible, rather than getting there organically the way Marvel did.  Snyder was probably an extremely willing co-conspirator, but not the driving engine there.

For me there's a weird irony to the fact that many blame Nolan's bat-trilogy for setting the darkity-dark tone that Warner thought was appropriate for Man of Steel and then BvS, and yet if you're really a student of Nolan his Batman movies actually say the exact opposite thing.

[Vee]

I'll not see this til the digital release, but I have no expectations for anything comics not on netflix anymore. Just annoys me that DC has Bruce Timm, who has a long history of overseeing really great original material, working on adaptations of lame material while they keep pushing out all sorts of original stuff that's also lame.

[Nos482]

I'll not see this til the digital release, but I have no expectations for anything comics not on netflix anymore.

Then (re-)watch Justice League: War and Throne of Atlantis instead... because those were awesome.

[Vee]

Then (re-)watch Justice League: War and Throne of Atlantis instead... because those were awesome.

They were decent, i wouldn't say awesome but I liked them. I don't have any expectations at all for DC animated movies because i never hear about them 'til after they release

[saipaman]

'Batman: The Animated Series' is really all the Batman anyone needs.