If we start with no user data

[Harpospoke]

Nice strawman.  No one has said they want everyone to lose their characters.

That's not true.  Quite a few people said that in the big thread.

[Teikiatsu]

That's not true.  Quite a few people said that in the big thread.

Post quotes, or drop it.  Not a single post I read in the big thread said anything to the effect of "I hope we all lose our characters and have to start over."  You might find one, maybe, but you will not find 'quite a few'.

[Burnt Toast]

I wouldn't mind if we started with a clean slate... BUT all I care is that we re-start. I just want to play CoH with or without my old toons doesn't matter to me. That is not me saying I hope we start with nothing...that is me saying I am not greedy and will take whatever we can get. Would I prefer to have my billions upon billions in inf and IOs back... sure, but I am not gonna piss and moan or think twice about playing if we don't. I see a lot of people on the other side saying "If we don't get this or that....I may not play" and to me that says more about their true dedication to making CoH resurrect than anything else.
Then I see people complaining about their names etc... so be there on day one and grab your name. I seriously doubt that people are going to go for your previous name that you hold so close to your heart...and if they do.. get over it and use your imagination and reinvent yourself. For a group of people who like to say the CoH community is so great etc etc...there sure are a lot of people who think others are mean and out to get them and their names. I just think people are greedy...and a lil too needy... I just want my game back plain and simple. I have no conditions on resuming my playing of CoH... just get it up and running and I am there whether it be with all new characters or my previous ones.


I'll be thankful for whatever we get...end of story.

[erich]

I'm with Burnt Toast. Wouldn't mind starting over. Half the fun of the game was leveling and grouping with all you fine people

BUT, if they do want to give us vets rewards, I have my characters exported into the xml file with all the items, enhancements, powers they had

[Harpospoke]

Post quotes, or drop it.

Well no.  You're only saying that because you know that thread is a billion pages long!     This is kinda the thread to talk about that subject to so it's weird to "drop it" here.

Not a single post I read in the big thread said anything to the effect of "I hope we all lose our characters and have to start over."  You might find one, maybe, but you will not find 'quite a few'.

You've somehow missed all the "I would prefer we start with a clean slate" posts?

I'm not talking about the "I'm fine with starting over if that's all we can get...I just want to play...but would hope we could get the characters back".   Cause...that's me too.

I'm talking about the ones who actually express a hope that we start over with a "clean slate".    I.E.  ...that we all lose our characters....that's what that means.   This is sometimes accompanied by a desire to see everyone in the low level zones or a desire to see the market start from nothing.  (surely you didn't miss those, did you?)

The motivation can vary.  There are such a thing as nerf-herders. (they do actually exist)   They are the types who feel others are "overpowered" and would like nothing better than to see those who are fully slotted with purples and incarnate slots to be reduced to lvl 1 again.      Then there are those who have that little inner hippie and really believe a forced re-start would bring the playerbase together in the lower zones to hold hands and sing songs.   That's not an evil intent at least...but more than a little naive.   I doubt they've actually thought about what their wishes would mean to other players who may have been greatly attached to their characters.

And if that viewpoint is allowed...why not the opposite, more positive viewpoint?

I wouldn't mind if we started with a clean slate... BUT all I care is that we re-start. I just want to play CoH with or without my old toons doesn't matter to me. That is not me saying I hope we start with nothing...that is me saying I am not greedy and will take whatever we can get.

We agree.   You weren't the type I was talking about.

I don't consider hoping we all get our characters back as "greedy" however.  For some reason, people with that hope are called negative names a lot on this board.   The people who actually hope for a positive thing for them and other players.  I notice that players who express this hope now have to include a disclaimer "I will take anything we can get of course" to hopefully ward off the attacks.  (to be fair, I noticed that those more accepting of lost characters have posted a disclaimer stating that they would love to have them back as well)

My hope is something that will not cause any sadness to anyone.  There are people who would be very happy and those who would not care.   Well...there is that third group who want other people to lose their characters.  They are the only possible ones who could be upset by it.  But I'm not sure I mind them being upset, frankly. 

 Not to mention a practical part of this with regard to the playerbase being larger due to the ability to jump right back in (I've got a personal friend who told me he isn't coming back without his characters)...and that they may be notified by email if the account data can be restored.   There are reasons to hope for it that are far from "greedy".  That sort of goodwill is an extreme positive should the game return.  (thus the suggestions in this thread to mitigate the damage of lost characters)   And I wonder about the account data being "lost" anyway...cause I got an email from NCSoft a few weeks ago when I signed into my account with them.   They've still got me in the system.

Hoping for us to lose our characters is hoping that a great many people will be unhappy in some way.   I think I have a moral high ground on that one.

And I've even reached a level of acceptance on it after reading the posts of those already planning ways to PL back to lvl 50 quickly.   I only had 16 of them....I could get them back pretty quick.    I had some purples...but most builds were just mid-level expensive.  (the Luck of the Gambler and KB protection were my big outlays)

I'll be thankful for whatever we get...end of story.

Me as well.  But we are both hoping for more than we have now, yes?   Does us not being thankful for Icon and wanting more make us "greedy"?   Icon is better than nothing after all.

[Teikiatsu]

Well no.  You're only saying that because you know that thread is a billion pages long!     This is kinda the thread to talk about that subject to so it's weird to "drop it" here.You've somehow missed all the "I would prefer we start with a clean slate" posts?

No I'm saying it because I know that is not the general attitude of the players that we want to erase everyone's time and effort they put into CoH1.

I have not missed your 'clean slate' posts.

What I am responding to (and would like you to drop) are the continual comments about how we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff, because that is not the reality.  I have not seen a single post to that effect, though I have seen plenty of people demonstrate maturity in accepting they will very likely have to start over and/or don't want to get all their stuff back unless everyone can get their stuff back.

[Harpospoke]

No I'm saying it because I know that is not the general attitude of the players that we want to erase everyone's time and effort they put into CoH1.

Agreed.   The general attitude is "we'll take what we can get".   That's the overwhelming majority.  Those aren't who I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the ones who openly hope for us all to lose our characters so other people will play a way that makes them happy.    Anyone responding to those posts is usually insulted.

I don't see why a person who is openly hoping for something that would be a huge positive should stop when a person hoping for a negative is allowed to express their opinion.

What I am responding to (and would like you to drop) are the continual comments about how we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff, because that is not the reality.  I have not seen a single post to that effect, though I have seen plenty of people demonstrate maturity in accepting they will very likely have to start over and/or don't want to get all their stuff back unless everyone can get their stuff back.

I never said we all want to erase the characters.  Not sure what you are talking about.   There really isn't anything for me to "drop" there since I don't say that in the first place.

[Felderburg]

What I am responding to (and would like you to drop) are the continual comments about how we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff, because that is not the reality.  I have not seen a single post to that effect, though I have seen plenty of people demonstrate maturity in accepting they will very likely have to start over and/or don't want to get all their stuff back unless everyone can get their stuff back.

I don't see why a person who is openly hoping for something that would be a huge positive should stop when a person hoping for a negative is allowed to express their opinion.I never said we all want to erase the characters.  Not sure what you are talking about.   There really isn't anything for me to "drop" there since I don't say that in the first place.

What Teikiatsu meant is that he/she believes that you (Harpospoke) are saying that there are posters who have said "we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff". Teikiatsu does not believe that anyone has said this.

I believe these quotes can illustrate:

I'm talking about the ones who actually express a hope that we start over with a "clean slate".    I.E.  ...that we all lose our characters....that's what that means.

Hoping for us to lose our characters is hoping that a great many people will be unhappy in some way.

What Teikiatsu is taking issue with is when you (Harpospoke) say that people who "express a hope that we start over with a 'clean slate' " are actually saying "we all lose our characters". You are putting words in people's mouths - when you say "that's what that means," it is NOT what that means. I think you're much more understanding now (than in your initial posts) that the people who hope for a clean slate are not maliciously hoping that everyone's characters get deleted. But you still appear to be convinced that they actively want to "proactively erase" characters, which is not the case, and is you interpreting their words in a way that I (and apparently Teikiatsu) don't believe is their intent. No one is "hoping for [you] to lose our characters," and I think that's where the disconnect is.

I doubt they've actually thought about what their wishes would mean to other players who may have been greatly attached to their characters.
...
Hoping for us to lose our characters is hoping that a great many people will be unhappy in some way. I think I have a moral high ground on that one.

This quote really illustrates very well what I think is the issue. You (Harpospoke) believe that people are "hoping for us to lose our characters." I (and I think Teikiatsu) do not agree that anyone has said or even implied this. I understand that you are "greatly attached" to your characters - so am I to mine. You're right, someone talking about a "clean slate" probably hasn't much considered those of us who have a great attachment to our characters. But no poster has said anything, directly or implied, that they want you or others to be unhappy, or that they actively hope everyone loses characters. Actively hoping for a clean slate and actively wanting characters deleted are two VERY different things. I followed the original argument, and while your understanding that people are not maliciously hoping for you to lose your characters is good, I think that the previous sentence illustrates the key misunderstanding that has led you to believe there is a group of people who want others to be unhappy.



I would also argue that talking about the benefits of a clean slate is also an optimistic viewpoint. You speak of yours being "positive" - obviously not getting characters is a negative, but spinning it in a positive way is also a good thing. As in: "Sure, we don't get characters, but at least we get the hoped-for benefits of a "clean slate"." Pragmatic, optimistic, positive.

[srmalloy]

I look at it like this... if the account data is not recoverable... I would still be content starting over. Know why? Because I'm not an ungrateful schmuck. I'd be grateful just to have the game back. Starting over fresh is a small price to pay to get the game itself back. Characters can always be remade and releveled. Enhancements can always be reacquired. How anyone can say they care about the game and in the same breath say they won't play if they have to start from scratch just makes my head spin.

I want to be able to step back into Paragon City and the heroes/villains that I've spent years with. That said, if the only way to do that is to build them back from their origins, I will. It's not the way I would want it to happen, but that decision isn't in my hands.

With all due respect, Baja, people who started playing this game from 2008, or even later than that, can grow just as attached to the identities they created in CoH and the names that go with them. You don't need to be playing from 2004 just to develop that kind of attachment.

And even if you were playing since 2004, you can be just as attached to characters that you created a year or less before shutdown.

Sentinel files were also intended to provide a means to partially recreate characters on private servers.  They are not merely text files (if you have one, check the final line...you'll probably see what I mean).  As such, they could theoretically be used to verify that a claimant is the true owner of each of their characters.  If NCSoft hands over the character data but not the account data, we couldn't verify who's who by using passwords, but Sentinel files would be the next most reliable way to re-verify players to characters.  There might be other ways, depending on how flexible the CoH i23 operations team is, and what records each player kept offline - akin to a "tell us the name of your characters' third grade teacher" re-verification process.  Heh.

Assuming that we do get the server archives with the character data as of the last backup made. Still, it's probably the best way to match people to their game account. Importing the data from the Sentinel+ files themselves would be considerably more complicated:

The badge that grants Oroborus (Entrusted with the Secret) creates unlock when you earn it. Importing the character would give you the badge, but not the unlock. Further, since you already have the badge you can't re-earn it. This is the same with the mission unlocks as well. The data was exported since it basically just pulled data from the character info screen in some way and not stuff that was stored server side.

It's artifacts like these that would make creating an import tool more complicated; the importer would need to be able to identify badges associated with unlocks and set the appropriate unlock flag on the character during the import process. This is not impossible to do; it merely requires a greater level of attention to detail than simply sucking the raw data out of the XML file. Whether this happens depends too much on whether the negotiations with NCSoft succeed in rescuing the game from them, and what server and account information we get if those negotiations succeed. If all we get is the naked server code and game-support data, then the only way to get characters back would be to do the development work on a full import tool for Sentinel+ files, and a decision would need to be made whether this is important enough to do. If we get the character data as well, then tying players to the COH accounts becomes the primary concern.

[Harpospoke]

What Teikiatsu meant is that he/she believes that you (Harpospoke) are saying that there are posters who have said "we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff". Teikiatsu does not believe that anyone has said this.

Yes, that has been said several times.   We apparently do not agree that changing the wording means you aren't saying what you are saying.

What Teikiatsu is taking issue with is when you (Harpospoke) say that people who "express a hope that we start over with a 'clean slate' " are actually saying "we all lose our characters". You are putting words in people's mouths - when you say "that's what that means," it is NOT what that means.

That's exactly what it means.   When you hope we all lose our characters you are hoping we all lose our characters.  Wording it as "I hope we have a clean slate" doesn't change what it means.   That's how politicians operate.

I think you're much more understanding now (than in your initial posts) that the people who hope for a clean slate are not maliciously hoping that everyone's characters get deleted. But you still appear to be convinced that they actively want to "proactively erase" characters, which is not the case, and is you interpreting their words in a way that I (and apparently Teikiatsu) don't believe is their intent. No one is "hoping for [you] to lose our characters," and I think that's where the disconnect is.

Some are malicious about it (unless you truly believe that nerf herders do not exist), some are just naive and not giving any thought to what it means when they hope we lose our characters.   They are thinking of things they would enjoy (more people playing in low level zones) and not thinking about the huge negative effect that would have on all the players who lost their characters.

This quote really illustrates very well what I think is the issue. You (Harpospoke) believe that people are "hoping for us to lose our characters." I (and I think Teikiatsu) do not agree that anyone has said or even implied this.

We'll just have to disagree on that.  When you hope we all lose our characters, you are hoping we all lose our characters.   Wording it differently doesn't actually change what you are hoping for.   You are most certainly doing more than "implying" it.

I understand that you are "greatly attached" to your characters - so am I to mine. You're right, someone talking about a "clean slate" probably hasn't much considered those of us who have a great attachment to our characters. But no poster has said anything, directly or implied, that they want you or others to be unhappy, or that they actively hope everyone loses characters. Actively hoping for a clean slate and actively wanting characters deleted are two VERY different things. I followed the original argument, and while your understanding that people are not maliciously hoping for you to lose your characters is good, I think that the previous sentence illustrates the key misunderstanding that has led you to believe there is a group of people who want others to be unhappy.

Some do.  There are people like that in the world.  They really wouldn't mind seeing people unhappy. 

• A small segment of the population for sure.  I've seen estimates that 4% of the population are psychopaths.   Those are the types who block traffic on a highway on purpose.  For a psychopath, seeing everyone lose their characters would indeed give them pleasure.   They would be among the small number of people who would be hurt by my preference.
• Next would be the "socialists".  Seeing other people with "more stuff" irritates them greatly.   They would also get great pleasure from seeing everyone forced to start with nothing.   Another group which would be hurt by my preference.
• Then there are the nerf herders.   They see their way to play as "the right way to play the game" and are constantly calling for measures to be taken to remove options to play differently.  If you read the old forums you saw them a lot.  A lot of arrogance in that crowd.  You see bits of it with the "the game is about the journey, not the destination" posts.  One more group that would be hurt by my preference.
• Lastly the "hippies".   These are the least disagreeable.   They at least have an idealistic view of a utopia.   They are truly not considering what other people would have to lose to gain their vision of paradise.   It's not going to hurt them to have that pointed out to them since they really don't mean any harm.   These people would reconsider what they hope for when they realize it would hurt a large number of people.

I would also argue that talking about the benefits of a clean slate is also an optimistic viewpoint. You speak of yours being "positive" - obviously not getting characters is a negative, but spinning it in a positive way is also a good thing. As in: "Sure, we don't get characters, but at least we get the hoped-for benefits of a "clean slate"." Pragmatic, optimistic, positive.

I'm in that group.  (Who knows....I might actually get good at PL'ing!   )  These are not the people I'm talking about.

If we want to allow people to post their desire to have us all lose our characters (also known as hoping for a clean slate) and explain why they want this, then we certainly should allow people to hope that we get our characters back and explain why they want that.   Of the two, the former is easily the more negative and disagreeable.   The only people who could possibly be upset at us getting our characters back are those described above....I can live with that.

[MWRuger]

Harpospoke, you can express whatever you wish. People who want a clean slate and people who want it all back can certainly express that desire. It just has been done repeatedly because apparently you seem to believe that we have forgotten your viewpoint. In my mind, no matter what you post ever, I will always associate you with wanting your characters back. Well Done!

Every time some new poster comes along says "Gee! A clean slate would be kinda cool! All the names would be free and the lower level zones would be populated. I would like that!" You are summoned, as if by magic, to tell them that they want you to be unhappy because you don't want to lose your characters.

The real problem here is that your desire, or theirs, will have ZERO impact on what happens. The group working on the negotiations are going to get the best deal they can for the money they have. That's it.

Even if NCSoft had every single thing they wanted, they would still get the best deal for the money. Will it include character data? If possible, I am sure it will.

Do you honestly think that anyone connected to this negotiation does not know what you want? If you believe that Nate Downes doesn't know this, send him a PM.

[Teikiatsu]

(What I've been trying to say - Teikiatsu)

Thanks Felderburg, someone gets it

At this point I hope that everyone but Harpospoke gets all their stuff back, and Harpo is not only forced to start with nothing but also has a -50 level penalty, -1,000,000,000 inf, all SOs, only i1 costume pieces, no power colors, no badges, and no prestige.

Yeah, that kind of a day at work

[Harpospoke]

Harpospoke, you can express whatever you wish. People who want a clean slate and people who want it all back can certainly express that desire.

Well that's certainly better than the sentiments expressed before.   The "drop it" and "there is no point in filling threads up with explaining that you want them back" things directed at me and at Heatstroke.

So....we can talk about what we want now?   Just checking.

It just has been done repeatedly because apparently you seem to believe that we have forgotten your viewpoint. In my mind, no matter what you post ever, I will always associate you with wanting your characters back. Well Done!

Well...now you seem to be urging me to shut up again.

Every time some new poster comes along says "Gee! A clean slate would be kinda cool! All the names would be free and the lower level zones would be populated. I would like that!" You are summoned, as if by magic, to tell them that they want you to be unhappy because you don't want to lose your characters.

That's what they are saying.  Whether they actually know what they are saying is a factor, but it doesn't change the fact that they are openly hoping I don't get my characters back.

Let's do it in reverse so you can see what I'm saying:

Suppose I post this:

"I hope everyone is issued only lvl 50 characters and are unable to start new ones so there will be more people to play the end-game content with me."

Any problem with that?

The real problem here is that your desire, or theirs, will have ZERO impact on what happens. The group working on the negotiations are going to get the best deal they can for the money they have. That's it.

I would say "close to zero".   Since they are reading these threads, it does seem like they would take posted opinions into account when they are considering what to ask for.   If they read a lot of "I would rather start from nothing" then they may think it's not important to even try to get the account info.

But are we going to use that metric to decide what we should talk about?   ....Because nothing we say here will have any effect.   This forum may as well shut down.    Most people are saying "I would like the characters back but will take what I can get" (I'm in this group  too)....this has been stated over and over and over.   Should we stop saying that too?   Are you going to confront people who post that as well?   Or is this just going to be directed at the "I want my characters back" people?

Again...I've accepted we probably won't get them back and have moved on to plan B...powerleveling.   I'm in a better spot than most...only 16 characters to get back.   I figure I can be back up and running within a month or two.

[Harpospoke]

At this point I hope that everyone but Harpospoke gets all their stuff back, and Harpo is not only forced to start with nothing but also has a -50 level penalty, -1,000,000,000 inf, all SOs, only i1 costume pieces, no power colors, no badges, and no prestige.

Yeah, that kind of a day at work

I don't get it, but ok.  I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.  There had to be a reason why you were complaining so much about people expressing a desire for a hugely positive thing for the playerbase.

For the record, I still hope you get your stuff back too.   

[Teikiatsu]

There had to be a reason why you were complaining so much about people expressing a desire for a hugely positive thing for the playerbase.

It seems that you can only post false narratives on this topic.  Why do you keep saying things that are not true?  It's not proving anything except you have a mental block against reality.

[Harpospoke]

It seems that you can only post false narratives on this topic.  Why do you keep saying things that are not true?  It's not proving anything except you have a mental block against reality.

Wait...aren't you the one who said I post "continual comments about how we all supposedly want to proactively erase all of our stuff"....when I've never said anything like that?

[Burnt Toast]

Well this conversation has devolved into needless bickering and semantics.. yay for maturity.


Gotta love that great friendly CoH community people are always championing.


 

[MWRuger]

Let's do it in reverse so you can see what I'm saying:

Suppose I post this:

"I hope everyone is issued only lvl 50 characters and are unable to start new ones so there will be more people to play the end-game content with me."

Any problem with that?

Well, if you posted that you I would probably explain to you that since I don't believe they have any way to do that on a regular server, just the test server and that was before they lost all the dev tools they can't. But since it's you, that wouldn't stop you from bringing it up every time someone posts about wanting your characters back or opining over the benefits of a clean start.

[Codewalker]

Gotta love that great friendly CoH community people are always championing.

*shrug*

Disagreements happen. If it were any other gaming community it probably would have degenerated into "no u!", vicious personal attacks, and name calling by now. This seems relatively tame as far as internet arguments go.

Just go spend some time on the Minecraft forums. /lolun00b

[Harpospoke]

Well, if you posted that you I would probably explain to you that since I don't believe they have any way to do that on a regular server, just the test server and that was before they lost all the dev tools they can't. But since it's you, that wouldn't stop you from bringing it up every time someone posts about wanting your characters back or opining over the benefits of a clean start.

We have to use a proper analogy.   There would need to be a way to do it obviously and it would have to be what we are "probably going to get".   Of course many players would be unhappy about it.   Then I enter and say, "I prefer it this way" or "it should happen" in the midst of all those unhappy players.   I can't imagine that going over very well.

And since you have been keeping such a close eye on my posts, I'm surprised you missed that I haven't actually brought it up in this conversation.   As I've said, I'm not so worried about the characters now....I've figured out an alternate plan that works for me.   But I see no reason why those who still greatly desire their characters back have to keep quiet about it.   That was actually what this conversation is about if you want to check my original post.

I don't mind people saying they want their characters back.   If people are allowed to say they want everyone to lose their characters, then it should also work in reverse.   

So I'm not really even talking about myself here.   If you check this thread, I think you'll find the overwhelming sentiment expressed...over and over....is that "I would like our accounts back...but will take what I can get".   This sentiment dwarfs the "I really would like to have my characters back" sentiment.   In fact, those expressing the latter usually are careful to point out the former.   You, for some reason I can't quite figure out, chose to single out that far less expressed sentiment as one which needed to stop being expressed.   

Another more popular one than "my characters" is the "I hope we get account data back so I can have my name/costumes/purchases".   These sentiments are equally futile to express on these boards (like every other thing we are hoping for) but continue to be repeated.   You and others say that the problem is that it is being repeated...the "I want my characters" hope is far down the list of "repeated wishes".   Yet....you focus only on the ones that express a strong desire to have characters back.  Very curious.   What can possibly be so special about that one specific view that warrants such attempts at censorship?

Perhaps we will get to play together at some point and you'll like me much better when you find out what a mediocre player I am.   I'll make you feel really good about your skill.