Author Topic: If we start with no user data  (Read 107453 times)

therain93

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #480 on: September 06, 2014, 05:29:14 PM »
Fair point, I should have said "I think this is your blind spot"... because you seem to have one.

That said, it's not much of a 'leap'.  You obsess about your files on any thread that even tangentially mentions this topic.  You remind us how much time and emotion you put into them.  And honestly, you seem to think you are a champion for veterans, as if we handed you the reigns to give us the game you think we want.  Newsflash: there are a lot of veterans who want to get back to the game.  I played the game for 8 years too.  I have plenty of 50's I spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on.  You don't speak for me, or the majority of us.  You're not special in that regard.  Multiple veterans have come forward to say they would miss their characters, but getting back into the game is more important to them.

As I understand them, Sentinel files were set up by the Titan Network to help save toons for one-way uses into Demorecords and ParagonWiki, not as a revolving door between gaming platforms.  I don't recall a mention that they could ever be used to bring toons back into the game.  But some people won't let go of that idea.

My biggest problem with the Sentinel files is they are computer files autonomous from the master servers and computers.  They are not secure.  Several people have posted that they could be manipulated or modified, or reused to generate multiple duplicate IOs and influence assuming they could translate back.  The files could be sold to other people.  They can be corrupted.  I'm not an expert on malware so maybe someone could answer if they could be infected?  We only have one mirror of i23, not the master code.  If one file were to damage the i23 image, how much damage could that do?  Would we have to get new servers?  Would we all have to start over again from scratch with a backup i23?  Is a single costume piece, or billions in digital currency, or a complete set of purple/PvP IO's worth all that?  Not to me.

I have to giggle slightly at the comment that people have posted that they could manipulate and modify the Sentinel files, as if that is an achievement --- derp, they're text files folks. ( ' :

And, as rightly pointed out, no reason to ever trust them.
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Scott Jackson

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #481 on: September 06, 2014, 07:38:27 PM »
Sentinel files were also intended to provide a means to partially recreate characters on private servers.  They are not merely text files (if you have one, check the final line...you'll probably see what I mean).  As such, they could theoretically be used to verify that a claimant is the true owner of each of their characters.  If NCSoft hands over the character data but not the account data, we couldn't verify who's who by using passwords, but Sentinel files would be the next most reliable way to re-verify players to characters.  There might be other ways, depending on how flexible the CoH i23 operations team is, and what records each player kept offline - akin to a "tell us the name of your characters' third grade teacher" re-verification process.  Heh.

Still, this is putting quite a train of carts in front of a horse that might not exist.  I'd suggest waiting until:
1.) the purchasing team reports success but without account data from NCSoft,
2.) an expert figures out exactly what (if any) character data is included,
If character data exists...
3.) the CoH i23 operations team decides whether (and precisely how) they will allow players to re-verify ownership of characters.  Sentinel might be just one of several options.
If -no- character data exists...
3.) the CoH i23 operations team decides whether to give help toward recreating characters in-game (such as XP boosters, various types of merits, and cash shop credits)
     and whether that aid will be equally given to all, only provided in proportion to the value of items* held by verifiably-owned characters, or available to those who pay for it.
4.) whether private server options will be made available for either CoH i23 or CoH 1.5.

*this could be easily restricted based on the knowledge of Sentinel's blind spot (transfer of Inf and enhancements from character A after Sentinel save to character B before save).  It would also be fairly easy to catch a cheater who attempts to get proportional aid to rebuild multiple characters by submitting files with items duplicated in that fashion.

Many questions, few answers at this time... but that's to be expected.

Scott Jackson

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #482 on: September 06, 2014, 07:46:36 PM »
I forget, are costume details in sentinel plus? If not, screenshots and some patience and someone could prooobably figure it out.

Yes, Sentinel saved multiple costumes for the character.  A quick glance shows that it's not the same format as the game's own save/load costume feature, but it's legible enough that I'm sure someone would attempt to write a converter, if demand for it is high.

Peregrine Falcon

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #483 on: September 06, 2014, 10:12:25 PM »
Personally I'm not at all worried about having to start my characters over. I'm fine restarting my characters and playing them up to 50 again.

My concern is the loss of my Veteran Rewards. I've gotten so used to a number of the powers for low level characters, angel wings, and some of the vet teleports. Having to start new characters without those would be... disappointing.
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HEATSTROKE

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #484 on: September 07, 2014, 12:48:25 AM »
Quote
  You obsess about your files on any thread that even tangentially mentions this topic.


Quote
And honestly, you seem to think you are a champion for veterans, as if we handed you the reigns to give us the game you think we want. 


Quote
I played the game for 8 years too.  I have plenty of 50's I spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on.  You don't speak for me, or the majority of us.  You're not special in that regard.


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Multiple veterans have come forward to say they would miss their characters, but getting back into the game is more important to them.


I originally had a made of remarks regarding your comments.. and I realized its just not worth the time energy and effort required to actually address them. Its easier to allow you to continue in your erroneous thought process and ridiculous assumptions about me.. Ive never been one that cares what people think.. and I have learned over the years that its pointless to get into debates over the internet..

But for the record.. I never assumed I was special.. but hey thanks for thinking that I think I am ...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 03:10:04 AM by HEATSTROKE »

MaidMercury

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #485 on: September 07, 2014, 02:10:44 AM »
I'll recreate my favorite characters and gladly start from 1 to 50.
As long as we get the game back in it's original form, or image enhanced, I'll be happy.

saipaman

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #486 on: September 07, 2014, 03:40:54 AM »
Yes, Sentinel saved multiple costumes for the character.  A quick glance shows that it's not the same format as the game's own save/load costume feature, but it's legible enough that I'm sure someone would attempt to write a converter, if demand for it is high.

A converter has already been written.  See this thread:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9637.0.html

It works for my newer costumes but fails on those costumes with parts that were either retired from active selection or were renamed.

Harpospoke

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #487 on: September 07, 2014, 07:22:44 PM »
I have a feeling, aside from my main which I plan to play to 50, all my other toons will be PLd. I know what I want.. I know what I had...so that whole "You won't know how to play your toons blah blah" crap won't be an issue (Not that it truly ever was for me). I think I have my toons narrowed down to 12... so aside from my farmer and my main... that's only 10 toons I will be PLing. I will prolly just dual box it and farm most of my toons myself.
Pretty much the same here with the number.   I think I only had about 15 or so lvl 50s I played anyway.  (not much of an alt-holic apparently)  So I wouldn't be surprised if there are only about 10 of them I would want back right away.

The fun of dual-boxing...I had a blast with that.   If I used it to PL though, it would take me forever to get even 5 of my 50s back.   What I do probably can't even be called "Powerleveling".      Maybe "lol-leveling"?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 07:44:12 PM by Harpospoke »

Harpospoke

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #488 on: September 07, 2014, 07:37:44 PM »
There is NO plan to shut down CoHi23 ...let's make that clear first of all. It has been stated numerous times that the goal is to keep CoHi23 up and running for as long as humanly possible. Heck they are even looking into Windows 9 compatibility because Windows 7 will no longer be supported after 2020... 6 years from now.
This should be mentioned more often.   I think it is one of the more important points.   The people working on this want CoH back...for good.    CoHi23 is not a temporary thing.

Harpospoke

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #489 on: September 07, 2014, 07:40:12 PM »
My biggest problem with the Sentinel files is they are computer files autonomous from the master servers and computers.  They are not secure.  Several people have posted that they could be manipulated or modified, or reused to generate multiple duplicate IOs and influence assuming they could translate back. 
That's not really the problem with them.   Apparently it is very difficult to alter them without it being detected.

The problem is more the probability that they would cause big issues in the game.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #490 on: September 08, 2014, 12:09:51 AM »
That's not really the problem with them.   Apparently it is very difficult to alter them without it being detected.

The problem is more the probability that they would cause big issues in the game.

I think people are really overstating the Sentinel files in general..

1) I dont think that many people are running around trying to alter the files..

2) I dont think even know how they would be used.. if at all

MWRuger

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #491 on: September 08, 2014, 03:53:23 AM »
It has been stated, repeatedly by Codewalker, that the Sentinel files are not useful for importing characters back into the game. They would result in broken characters. They were meant for private servers, not a commercial relaunch and as a last resort at that.  For example:

The badge that grants Oroborus (Entrusted with the Secret) creates unlock when you earn it. Importing the character would give you the badge, but not the unlock. Further, since you already have the badge you can't re-earn it. This is the same with the mission unlocks as well. The data was exported since it basically just pulled data from the character info screen in some way and not stuff that was stored server side.

This has been stated multiple times. I'm pretty sure in this thread.

I'd like my characters back as well. But it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE WANT. IT MATTERS WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

AT THIS TIME, character data is not available. Sentinel files are not useful.

That means we start from scratch. Until something changes, there is not point in filling threads up with explaining that you want them back. Really. You want them back? Yes, we know.

Telling us how attractive it would be veterans? Pointless. It has been discussed ad nauseam since March. Nate Downes has been reading the threads, he knows what you want.

Telling us you won't play? Well, we'll miss you and you can always come back later if you want.

You want all the stuff back you bought? Me too. But right now we have ZERO information on what offers we will get if any to get all that stuff back. Several ideas were floated earlier in this thread. Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. We will have to wait.

Really, the bottom line is that we want as much as we can get as cheaply as we can get as fast we can get to get us where we were when the game closed. That is really all you have to say. But I bet they know that already.
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saipaman

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #492 on: September 08, 2014, 06:52:15 PM »
I agree the discussion has gotten out of hand but I don't recall seeing any threats by anyone to not come back to the game.

I think a paid early bird period might be the answer here.  It would help defray the cost of restarting the game and give people a shot at getting their character names back.

Believe me, no matter what happens, I'd go right back to paying that monthly subscription fee.

MWRuger

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #493 on: September 08, 2014, 07:28:36 PM »
I agree the discussion has gotten out of hand but I don't recall seeing any threats by anyone to not come back to the game.

I think a paid early bird period might be the answer here.  It would help defray the cost of restarting the game and give people a shot at getting their character names back.

Believe me, no matter what happens, I'd go right back to paying that monthly subscription fee.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular and this was a general reply to this issue that has been heartily discussed often.

I think that if it is possible at all the team will try and get character data. But right now they are saying they can't. If they do, I am sure that we (the players) will find someway to finance it if we have to.

However, what if they want a huge fee up front?

What if the added cost of character data makes the deal go south?

What if there is no way to restore characters without restoring every bodies character, whether they pay for it or not?

What if they only way to restore characters is to restore every name that is already taken? It's very possible that the tool you would use to free up dead names is no longer available.

Too many variables and not enough data for anything but pointless speculation. We just don't know enough for informed guesses.


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Harpospoke

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #494 on: September 08, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »
It has been stated, repeatedly by Codewalker, that the Sentinel files are not useful for importing characters back into the game. They would result in broken characters. They were meant for private servers, not a commercial relaunch and as a last resort at that.  For example:

The badge that grants Oroborus (Entrusted with the Secret) creates unlock when you earn it. Importing the character would give you the badge, but not the unlock. Further, since you already have the badge you can't re-earn it. This is the same with the mission unlocks as well. The data was exported since it basically just pulled data from the character info screen in some way and not stuff that was stored server side.

This has been stated multiple times. I'm pretty sure in this thread.

I'd like my characters back as well. But it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE WANT. IT MATTERS WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

AT THIS TIME, character data is not available. Sentinel files are not useful.

That means we start from scratch. Until something changes, there is not point in filling threads up with explaining that you want them back. Really. You want them back? Yes, we know.

Telling us how attractive it would be veterans? Pointless. It has been discussed ad nauseam since March. Nate Downes has been reading the threads, he knows what you want.

Telling us you won't play? Well, we'll miss you and you can always come back later if you want.

You want all the stuff back you bought? Me too. But right now we have ZERO information on what offers we will get if any to get all that stuff back. Several ideas were floated earlier in this thread. Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. We will have to wait.

Really, the bottom line is that we want as much as we can get as cheaply as we can get as fast we can get to get us where we were when the game closed. That is really all you have to say. But I bet they know that already.
I don't mind people saying they want their characters back.   If people are allowed to say they want everyone to lose their characters, then it should also work in reverse.   

MWRuger

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #495 on: September 08, 2014, 08:52:10 PM »
I don't mind people saying they want their characters back.   If people are allowed to say they want everyone to lose their characters, then it should also work in reverse.

I would just as soon people realized that it doesn't matter whether some people want a clean slate or their characters back.

I am 100% positive that if they can get them back they will. If they can't, they won't. People who want a clean slate are just as likely to be disappointed as you would be if we can't. At the moment, they are more likely to get what they want, but not because they request it.
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Teikiatsu

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #496 on: September 08, 2014, 09:01:09 PM »
I don't mind people saying they want their characters back.   If people are allowed to say they want everyone to lose their characters, then it should also work in reverse.

Nice strawman.  No one has said they want everyone to lose their characters.
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saipaman

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #497 on: September 08, 2014, 11:00:03 PM »
Let's all agree we want to play again and just leave it there for now.

This 'server image' may never materialize so all this discussion may well be pointless.

Well, except for showing our ongoing interest in Cox.

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #498 on: September 09, 2014, 03:01:43 AM »
We should see how things work out with just getting the game up and running again first before anyone even thinks about what possibilities exist for character data. If they can't get the game running, character data is a moot point.

As far as wishful thinking on that though, even if they just could get what global handle was linked to what account, and restore a starting character based on the information there, I would be happy with it. An example being, they see my global was @Darkojin, I have my character Arsenic Widow here linked to that global, when the game starts back up, I have a level 1 Widow named that ready to go (along with my other multitude of alts).

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Re: If we start with no user data
« Reply #499 on: September 10, 2014, 07:05:18 PM »
I would just as soon people realized that it doesn't matter whether some people want a clean slate or their characters back.

I am 100% positive that if they can get them back they will. If they can't, they won't. People who want a clean slate are just as likely to be disappointed as you would be if we can't. At the moment, they are more likely to get what they want, but not because they request it.
So it doesn't really matter either way.   That's why I don't mind people saying they want their characters back.