Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[Iron-Emerald]

For what it's worth as a mostly-lurker I completely agree with the stance that Tony V is taking here. At the end of the day most everyone coming to the Titan forums has a common goal, we all hope that there will come a time when we can play City of Heroes or a game like City of Heroes again. And that's where I've always understood Plan Z to come from, the idea that if nobody saves CoH the the community will make a successor. I think something like Titan is a great place to contain and support those ideas, not to necessarily pick the winners among those ideas and certainly not from this far out.

Now that's great, but it's inevitable that along the way we're going to see divides occurring. Different people will have different ideas about what made CoH great. Different people will have different ideas about worthwhile enhancements that can be made to the game too. Sometimes these differences will be the kind that can be worked through. Other times, apparently like here, the differences are too big and somebody will feel the need to move on. Fractures are going to happen, the goal shouldn't be to 100% stop them from happening, it should be to work through differences when they occur and when those differences are irreconcilable to work out how to best move forward.

If Golden Girl and the Phoenix team couldn't work together, but each really wanted to work on a successor game then a split is really the only option. But it doesn't have to be us against them, two paths doesn't have to split the chances of getting something off the ground. I look at it instead as a second chance at somehow bottling lightning and getting a game going. I'm new to this forum and I'd like to say best of luck to both teams. I have no idea which is more likely to succeed at the moment, but I'm delighted at how many talented people want to have a crack at making a worthy successor to this great game.

[Electric-Knight]

And just for a little bit of perspective here...
Expecting one single attempt and path to begin and remain and become successful is lovely and all, but it's really not very realistic and extremely unlikely.
That's just not, generally, how the creative process works.
Stuff happens. Splits happen. It's okay.
For all we know, both current projects will fall apart, implode or rework themselves several times over before anything may ever come of them... And we could end up with 5 other ones that will some day take their place... Or switches back and forth and/or re-unifications of who knows what sorts.
Nothing planned at this point, but roughly 95% of life is unplanned.

I understand why people may be troubled by things... but, hey, trouble is part of the game.
Relax, find your peace and do what you believe in and let everyone else do what they believe in.
Things fall into place that way.

All the best to everyone. :)

[Spellcaster Hana]

I find this a bit complicated as both teams will have different ideas and concepts put together. They both have the same goal of making a successor to CoX. So, why don't we just join the two teams together and make a league instead? This isn't competition or anything like that, right?

[emu265]

Just caught up on all the responses to this...

I do understand divergent paths.  Sometimes it's inevitable, and I'm sorry there had to be hard feelings (to be clear, I don't know any of the circumstances, just going off what Tony said).  I have faith in this community, we all should given the last three months.  But I cannot help but think this will become some sort of competition.  I do agree that expecting everything to fit together is wholly unrealistic.  But so is assuming there will be no future conflicts.  People feel the need to pick sides, even when the don't want to.  People will inevitably be drawn to one project over the other, for personal reasons.  That is what bothers me. 

Said, I really am rooting for both projects. 

[Minotaur]

Okay, just to clear up some misconceptions (and probably create a few more...):

3) Golden girl did not "ragequit."  Anyone who claims that is not being truthful.  There had been a rift in vision for several weeks that, despite the best efforts of multiple people including Golden Girl, could not be reconciled.  I'm not going to sum up arguments for something or against another because it would be totally pointless.  My suggestion is to do a little reading up on both projects (keeping in mind that both are still in their infancy and subject to change), decide which one you think is more spot-on, and support that team.  If you really want to be helpful, though, don't do it by trying to tear down someone else or undermining others.  Focus on the positive.  Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.  And if you think that Golden Girl is somehow going to tear the community apart or cause the other team's project to derail, I think you have WAY too little faith in the community and the other project and you put WAY too much weight into Golden Girl's capabilities to do something like that (completely neglecting the obvious, which is that she's actually a really nice person who has been a passionate member of this community for a very long time).

5) It's grossly unfair for us to pick and choose winners and losers like I feel some people here are asking us to do.  Not just to us, but to the people who want to help by working on these projects.  I mean think about it, if you wanted to develop a mobile app that had something to do with City of Heroes, would you rather have us say, "Hey, we're cool with anyone who wants to add something to the mix" and (barring some really bizarre reason why not) help to publicize it, or have me or us as a small group judge it and determine if it's worth the community's time, having the ultimate ability to make or break what you're hoping to accomplish?

If you think that this is going to destroy any chance a Plan Z project has of succeeding, then I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think you're mistaken.  At any rate, it's still very early in the process, so please, give these projects a chance before you just naysay the crap out of them.  I mean, unless you're a graphical code-head trying to decide which to work on, it's not like it will hurt much to just hang out for a while and see what happens.  One may pull out ahead of another, both may take off like wildfire, or both may sputter out, in which case hopefully someone else will come along and raise a banner.

But I'm not the boss of these projects.  It's not like I can tell either team, "Hey, stop doing that," or, "Do it that way."  For that, you need to talk to the leaders of the teams themselves.  Even if I could, though, I like and respect the leaders of both of these teams and I feel like they both deserve support in what they're doing.

You (or the leaders of the 2 projects) REALLY need to sum up the differences, ideally via an agreed post between the leaderships of the 2 projects, if that's not possible, brokered by a neutral party such as yourself. Also for the less technical of us, a quick FAQ as to things like what the difference is between the two engines being used, and the implications for the final games would be very handy.

This would make it much easier for those of us who want to support one of the two projects if we could understand what happened, and where the projects will seriously diverge, as this might have some bearing on which one we choose. Some people will be disillusioned and not support either. I got so fed up with the "mushroom magagement" in the IT industry which was one of the reasons I quit it to retrain as a statistician, I thought we'd be more open here.

My main concern as I've put on the H&V section is that making 2 games is dooming both. I don't feel that there's room in the market for 2 games, and the one that comes out first will have an advantage. This may mean it's released undercooked, and puts people off both games.

[Techbot Alpha]

Well, I know which one I intended to join up for and which one I intend to support. Subjectively that's based on past experience, differences and I guess 'history', and Objectively it's based on which game doesn't have a bunch of cliché, law-suitable characters cramming out a very large 'signature' line up...

I have to say that I think the continued use of 'Project Z' is both confusing and harmful. I initially thought that H&V was 'the' Project Z planned after CoH. Until a friend pointed out there were two, and I realised it was a splinter group. And, yes, I will continue to call it a splinter group. All calls for 'playing nice' are one thing, but from what I can tell, Tony V's assurance or not, this DOES look like someone taking not only their ball but a LOT of the design assets that one group was using and making use of them elsewhere.

Not only does this lead to confusion for rookies on 'which project is what?' but questions like 'Which project is using Titan City? And stuff like Skorpion?' (Even though I think that entire group is OH so god-awfully cheesy...)
Just my tuppence ha'penny.

[Mister Bison]

There is confusion, it's normal, since it's confusing. But there is one, very, very important confusion that needs immediate lifting.

If you want people to stop talking about division, talk about mutualizing. What does Heroes & Villains plan on sharing with the Phoenix Project ? What is the point of contention and hence, won't be seen in this new project ?

There is a lot of code and protocols that can be shared, a lot of creative assets too, even if it has never been seen. Why not share factions and characters ? Share timelines and intertwine the stories ? Or does Golden Girl give a totally different universe at all ?

[Captain Electric]

There was a time when a dozen or more different hominid species walked the Earth. Now there is only one. But it wasn't for lack of trying on the others behalf. Heck, we weren't even the first hominids to create art and music. But here we are. We adapted, we evolved. We might not have been first, and depending on some unlucky natural catastrophes, there might have been some better version of hominid walking around today--with or without us. But, owing to a mix of skill and luck, we're here, we survived, we invented the Internet and now we have super hero MMOs.  8)

You may choose not to believe me when I say this, but I saw this coming from the first moment I read about Plan Z. AND I'M AN OPTIMIST. In a perfect world, we'd all work away on this one thing like good worker ants. I completely agree that things would be better if that happened. But there's just one hitch: humans. We're not dealing with crazy saber toothed predators in this case, but the environment within which our community is going to have to adapt and evolve is still littered with hazards. People get married, they get new jobs, they have babies, they get mad at each other, they disappear without notice, they lose steam, they feel under-appreciated, it happens.

Meanwhile, this won't be giving most of us extremely pressurized incentives like angry bosses and deadlines and paychecks under which most creative professionals end up spewing out their best work. And for those of you reading this in your early 20s, hoo boy, get ready: projects like this take years, and during that time, you will be hoovering up all kinds of new responsibilities and drama in your personal lives.

The phrase "Divided we fall" has been grossly misappropriated in this thread. If these forums said "No" to other ideas and projects, and Project Phoenix didn't work out in the end, what then? I'll tell you what then. We'd all be wishing these forums had not said "No" to other ideas and projects.

And there will be people who would never have preferred working on Project Phoenix over some other thing to begin with, whether that be Heroes and Villains or some other thing in the future. Telling these people that, "No, we need you working on OUR project, not on ANYTHING ELSE", is in reality not much different than showing some people the door.

This is a wonderful opportunity wrapped up in some otherwise unfortunate circumstances. In evolution we often call that "luck". More opportunities to participate will increase our chances of having more participants, who will increase our chances of, well, surviving (thriving?) as a community. If you're reading this and you've got a zany idea bottled up for an online super hero game and spiritual successor to City of Heroes, when the heck is a better time going to come along to throw it at a wall and see if it sticks?

Everyone should probably just drop the "Plan Z" term though, or just let Golden Girl have it, whichever is the most efficient path of least resistance.

[Nebularian]

I have to agree with a few other posters here...that expecting a single direction effort is probably expecting too much.  And seems too much like trying to put all the eggs in one basket.  And, quite frankly, from the level of cooperation I have seen, I would not be surprised to see the members of team A jump in and help Team B if it is ever needed.....I also can see the members of one team moving lock stock and barrel to the other team should their efforts fall through.

In the end, as has been said, there is room enough.   And we have the model of COH to show us that we DON'T have to pick one or the other.  We had the Blue, the Red, and the Gold,  Remember?  I see nothing wrong with Plan Z developing in that manner.   All one game, just different aspects of it.

[HEATSTROKE]

I just think its a shame that its barely two days after the shutdown and there is already division in the community.

[blackjak]

This. I am afraid Phoenix will miss GG's enthusiasm and H&V will be light on resourses. I only have time to devote to one or the other (and it's not all that much unfortunately). This puts me, and I  imagine most here, in the position of chosing. This makes a split inevitable,IMHO.o matter what I  suppose the is always enough time on the interwebs for opinion and feedback for both projects.

[Terlin]

I find this a bit complicated as both teams will have different ideas and concepts put together. They both have the same goal of making a successor to CoX. So, why don't we just join the two teams together and make a league instead? This isn't competition or anything like that, right?

I agree completely.

Even if the two efforts have agreed to disagree, and have set peaceful terms between them, it very apparent that people looking at the these messages on the Titan Network will see a dilution of effort. It greatly diminishes the legitimacy of any successor CoX project.

Wouldn't it be best to just place both paths back into one Plan Z attempt, or are the two of them so foreign to the other as to prevent compromise?

I have been directing all of my friends from the CoX community here to view the fantastic work being done. I am positive that they will misunderstand what they see with two efforts underway, and will lose interest as a result.

[Defcon Kid]

I just think its a shame that its barely two days after the shutdown and there is already division in the community.

Amen to that... visions and egos should be put aside and keep the best and strongest team united, otherwise the little hope there was about having a real "spiritual succesor" will fade away. It's my 2 cents only, but I'm spreading word in the Spanish forum and the Spanish City ex-players FB group and I know what they will say.

[Captain Electric]

I have been directing all of my friends from the CoX community here to view the fantastic work being done. I am positive that they will misunderstand what they see with two efforts underway, and will lose interest as a result.

Two? Here's to hoping your friends don't frighten that easily because I don't see this community stopping at two. :)

[CapaDevans]

My problem is not that there is two projects per se, but the way the split was done and by whom. A couple of people in this thread have echo'd exactly my concerns but as my previous post didn't make the point as clearly as I wanted, let me do what I do best and speak plainly and risk upsetting someone.

1) Making a new successor is a tough ask
2) Keeping quiet about splitting while making websites in the background is underhanded and disrespectful to the people who started the process and have been doing their utmost to keep this trucking
3) The person heading the '2nd Plan Z' doesn't think things through - see the copyright issues - and is more likely to bring down everyone who is trying to make a successor to CoX. No matter which plan they're on. That's bad. Very bad.

If someone else headed the alternative Plan Z then MAYBE it wouldn't be so bad. But GG .... hell to the frack no ... get me as FAR away as possible from that disaster waiting to happen.

If Tony said he needed cash to start a studio now, I'd give everything I could because I believe his team thinks things through and it wouldn't be money down the drain. I won't sub into a law suit waiting to happen.

I never wanted to lose CoX. I'll go a long way to get it back or something pretty darned close. But I want to see a reasonable chance of whatever evolves to work. I don't want to see everyone putting in a lot of effort wasted and having hopes raised to be dashed by someone who doesn't think things through, talks nice to peoples face while planning to stab them in the back.

That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it and you're free to disagree.

I know you said you don't want sides, Tony but that's the way I feel.

Edit: Again, please no personal attackes. --TonyV

[Terlin]

Two? Here's to hoping your friends don't frighten that easily because I don't see this community stopping at two. :)

I sincerely hope your are very wrong.

For any project to succeed, it needs a vision that will drive it to that success. That means that while ideas are gathered and considered, it retains an overriding focus to propel it forward.

Those are the values I've applied to the many projects I've completed in my lifetime. I've been told that I'm very open minded, and I do believe that opposing views need a place at the meeting table. That does not mean you split the energies of the development group into many fragments. You take what you find useful that promotes the vision of the project, and continue on.

So, if we are to have parallel efforts, they need to be central to one vision. If you disagree, just imagine a more ridiculous scenario of ten or twenty simultaneous efforts. What level of energy can the Titan community bring to that? It would not, and would gravitate toward only the top options. Also, I find it unlikely that any studio or firm would wade through all those development efforts if promoted by the same community: competing companies perhaps, but not from the same source.

[Nebularian]

Wow....looking at this, I would almost think I was seeing the Presidential race again with all the vindictive crap being spewed forth.

People, TonyV has tried, as we all should, to be adult about this. There IS a different vision...okay. I personally think that is a GOOD thing...Might it slow progress...perhaps.   But I would rather have something good than quick.

If someone working on one project likes it better than the other....no problem.  If that means one project gets fewer people to help....so be it.  Personally, I don't know if I would want some one working on one of the projects he or she disagreed with.

I saw some one post about how bad it was to show division only two days after the shut down.   People, the only real division is by those being loud and vocal against one side or the other or the fact that there are two different views.   I see the potential developers agreeing to disagree and moving forward. 

If the only way to show unity is to disavow one side or the other, you can count me out.  If the only way to show unity is jump on the "I hate <insert name here> so don't support his/her" bandwagon, then you can count me out.

I admit, it is easy to attack and get all upset and make sure everyone else is upset too (we see some fine examples of that in this thread, don't we?) 

But that is helping nothing.    To paraphrase a character from the Pern books: Pay Heed to the Weyrleader (TonyV) and spare him you're petty carping.

[JWBullfrog]

But that is helping nothing.    To paraphrase a character from the Pern books: Pay Heed to the Weyrleader (TonyV) and spare him you're petty carping.

How dare you invoke McCaffrey the great here?

Bravo, nicely done. And good advice.

Folks, we can be civil about this. If you prefer one project over the other then, by all means, contribute to that one.  There is no need to start politicizing things.

That's the path to the Dark side- AKA everyone elses forums. We may have a temporary access problem with our city but we are still the best community in gaming. If we keep that in mind, we'll do just fine.

[Iron-Emerald]

I think people need to keep in mind just how early in the process we are here. However many similarities there are in the two projects right now they're surely going to be very different by the end of things. It's as if some people are imagining these two games coming out to market together just because they're starting out now. If there's a project you believe in more than another then great, support that project. Whichever project is best supported has the best chance of being made and is going to develop far faster.

The biggest threat to any Plan Z right now isn't the split occurring here, it's the negativity it's bringing out from some quarters. If a community game is going to be made there are going to be bigger setbacks than this along the way. We can't have everyone screaming 'DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!' at every one. On the plus side I think that Tony V and Segev have handled this extremely well and I'm glad they're trying to keep this from developing into opposing factions.

[Daimyoshi]

It far too ****en early to be condemning anyone for any issues, we need stay focused on the idea of our community. I can support two projects, I do what I can for either with my limited time and total lack of talent and when needed small amounts of cash. creating factions in the community is bad! Lets at least see where the projects can go first. It really sad to see some people flinging mud like attacks on people because of some current "copyright issue" Let us face it Stateman himself really resembles in a lot of ways Superman. Stop the mud, lets work on projects together when possible and worry about IP issues when there is actually a product. No carts before the horses her and let us all be friends again.