Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[nataliaofvirtues]

i am in no position to give advice to either project as i have no great talents. However, like everyone else here, I played City almost every day. City had so many different concepts that you could run a very long time before you caught up to yourself. I understand that each project has a different "take" on how it should/could work, but isn't there a way to visualize both or all of those concepts under one game umbrella just as COH did?

It seems to me that if those that have the talents work together and create one concept at a time, we would then be able to enjoy both or all without any risk of fracture.

Again, I am no one, and I am just putting my perception out there for all to see.

[wildcat4ever]

I don't agree about needing to focus or that its bad to have two or more groups working on ideas.  Let them go about developing creatively and organically, let them grow and evolve and see what happens. 

The huge advantage is that these projects are rooted in the same community and can be complimentary and cross-pollinate, collaborate, or otherwise do things that commercial projects can't.  If we all maintain a spirit of good will, patience, and remember what the last three months have been like and let that empower us, then I believe the future is bright.

I'm willing to wait years, even decades to see what comes out of this.  And I'll be playing other games in the meantime.  But if talented and dedicated people (which we have in abundance) can put something together out of their passion for the game, community and lore, then its worth waiting and seeing what that is.  For example, I hadn't thought along these lines until someone mentioned a MUD, but a superhero MUD with a character creator/visualizer a la CoH's character creator is an intriguing idea and something I'd definitely support.  Who knows what else someone will come up with and what it will inspire in others.

After all, sometimes being a hero is as much inspiring others as winning every fight.

p/g

[avelworldcreator]

This.  Please bring the answer to this question out into the open.

The reason it's not being brought out in the open is because we are trying to avoid fanning the original flames behind it all. There were a lot of hard feelings and accusations involved.

And for the record I was one of the people supportive of Golden Girl during all this. I was hurt and shocked that she did not disclose any of this beforehand.

But I must point out that she appears to have been planning this for quite a while. The domain was registered about midway through the last month and the content was not put together overnight. Beyond that anything else would be pure speculation.

[Terwyn]

Truthfully, I believe that supporting both efforts is problematic and will only serve to enhance the confusion thus created.

To my understanding, there have been contributions to the lore of the original project that proved cumbersome and unwieldy, partly due to the fact that they carried with them some potential IP infringement risk. Also, we had established standard templates by which submissions could be easily sorted and incorporated. Unfortunately, some found those templates to be troublesome and chose not to adhere to their use, instead providing their lore contributions via different methods that made it very difficult for the rest of the lore team to work with. It is not so much a difference of vision as it is a difference of methodology. Those who are involved with PZ:PP have been following tested methodology used by many game studios.

In addition, there have also been significant communications issues between members of the project. Although Tony has characterized the matter as "gnashing of teeth and some arguing," the evidence I have been presented with suggests that the matter was far more endemic. While he is correct in saying that we are all part of the same community (players of City of Heroes), he is not correct in saying that there has been discussion and hashing out of details resulting in the agreement of everyone involved  that "Plan Z" refers to an umbrella concept of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.

I do not believe it would be prudent for any resources to be shared between the two projects, as both would likely become formalized legal entities, there would necessarily be significant ownership concerns that would arise and threaten the viability of all projects and concepts involved. Titan's official support for both projects will only complicate these potential legal issues.

As such, in my role as the business and marketing lead for the original project, it is best for all parties to move away from the Plan Z name in order to reduce the amount of confusion between the two projects. Active confusion between the two projects will only serve to hamper both, and as such it is important that there be a clear distinction made.

Personally, I wish those involved with Heroes and Villains luck, as the development of a game and its studio from scratch is not an effort to be taken lightly.

[TA]

Tony,

Respectfully, this is a mistake.  Plan Z is at a very fragile stage right now, with emotions at their height in the wake of CoH's actual shutdown, and we're in the recruitment stage where morale is at its most shaky.  This is a time where the entire project could fall apart without strong leadership and clear direction.  This is not the time for halfhearted, offend-nobody conciliation.

Golden Girl's ragequit would be relatively easy to weather, but establishing and promoting a competing project - and make no mistake, it is competing, for time and resources and personnel - is something that could be hugely destructive to the Plan Z effort.  We have people confusing her effort for ours, thinking that her site represents us and that her design has our sanction.  We have people confusing our efforts for hers, talking about Plan Z as a whole as being "CoH with the serial numbers filed off" based on the absurdly unoriginal concepts she threw up on her site, and multiple game news sites referring to Heroes And Villains as though it were the focus of all our efforts.  Golden Girl is doing everything she can to muddy these waters, sending out press releases that claim she's the founder of Plan Z and that this is the realization of what we've been doing.

Maybe you just don't know Golden Girl to the extent that a lot of people do, and maybe you haven't been dealing with her attempts to take over the story and lore work here, but let me lay it out for you: Heroes And Villains is a nonstarter.  Golden Girl's entire roster of characters is a copyright lawsuit waiting to happen, and her insistence on maintaining absolute creative control, paired with her general unreliability, means this will never get anything done.  Except - and this is the problem - dragging Plan Z down with it.  People see multiple successor efforts going on, under the same banner, they see them as linked, and seeing Heroes And Villains inevitably collapse will make them see Plan Z as a failure too.  Our brand will be permanently tarnished by her project's existence, we're going to spend a lot of time refuting charges based on her actions, and we're going to miss out on a lot of volunteer and investment possibilities by virtue of there being one failed "community" effort already.

I'm sure Golden Girl thinks she can pull this off, but if this were orchestrated as an attempt to sabotage Plan Z as punishment for rejecting her, there's little she could have done that was more dangerous.  We've already lost a programmer because of this nonsense.  And frankly, this is the worst possible response you could make.  There is not room under our umbrella for two competing projects, we can't have people working on both at the same time for any number of reasons, and we definitely can't let Golden Girl destroy our brand with her efforts.  All of the good will we've built up under the Plan Z title is about to get flushed down the toilet.  This is something to be publicly rejected, not halfheartedly endorsed and given its own section on the boards.  Heroes And Villains needs to be completely disavowed, by the Titan Network and by the Plan Z staff.  As the head of one, and one of the more public faces of the other, that means you can't be giving multiple projects your endorsement.  Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is the Titan Network's community-based successor effort.  We can't have two.  We're losing faith in our effort because of this fracture, and we're losing faith in our leadership for their inability to deal decisively with the fracture.  You need to change your stance, delete Golden Girl's forum section, and you in particular need to come down hard on her attempts to co-opt the Plan Z name.

We didn't give Golden Girl full creative control, so she's trying to shut us down.  Please don't make it easier for her.

[Golden Girl]

While he is correct in saying that we are all part of the same community (players of City of Heroes), he is not correct in saying that there has been discussion and hashing out of details resulting in the agreement of everyone involved  that "Plan Z" refers to an umbrella concept of a spiritual successor to City of Heroes.

Actually, TonyV, Segev and I discussed it yesterday and agreed on the idea.

[Terwyn]

Actually, TonyV, Segev and I discussed it yesterday and agreed on the idea.

That was *really* a discussion I should have been a part of.

[Captain Electric]

Hello Paragons, how is everyone doing today? It's a brand new day, eh? Tony, is there any way you could turn that underscore in my forum name into a space? Apparently I was already registered on these forums. Since 2009. Why did I do that to my name?

We have work to do around here. *ROLLS UP SLEEVES* The only side I'm taking is Paragon Studios, and the legacy of their unique vision. I'll stand by anyone who wants to help breath life into that vision. I'm glad to see that you will too, Tony.

Golden Girl may not have realized it at first, but what her move has done, is it has offered the players the opportunity to turn the Titan community into a think tank for the online super hero gaming genre. This is a good thing. I think some of the project devs are beginning to see this. Many others will take some convincing, apparently.

For years, I have had ideas for a persistent, collectible, strategy-MMORPG hybrid where each player enters their single-player or co-op campaign or PVP arena with a team, league or super group (depending on the scale of the mission or arena) of customizable, upgradable and tradable heroes that THEY created from scratch in an editor using balanced powers or sets of powers. I have thought of so many ways that this could be interesting in both turn-based and RTS formats, and nothing like it exists today. None of the collectible online games out there let you create your own hero units from scratch, none of them throw your decks/armies into a particularly engaging theme park where there is any sense of an "over-world" where the evolving story matters, and none of them feature a visceral 3D engine capable of putting you right on the field (or sky, or sea, or space) with your heroes or villains if you choose.

So who was the first person to try to convince me to start talking about my idea and see if anyone found it interesting? Golden Girl.

I'll tell you what fracturing is. Fracturing is telling the members of this community that it's either your way, or the highway. Fracturing is telling the members of this community that their ideas don't belong here. That they don't belong here.

So, tell me, Plan Z people. Would my ideas have a place for growth, participation, feedback and development here? Or would you like to exclude Golden Girl's ideas, my ideas, and the other ideas from the table automatically? Because if the answer is "yes", then you have already lost something valuable to your cause and community. I'll leave it to you to ponder what that thing is. Tony knows the answer, I guarantee you.

[Golden Girl]

That was *really* a discussion I should have been a part of.

That sounds like it might have been another one of those communication problems that have cropped up from time to time - would you like me to send you the Skype log, or would you prefer to get it from Segev?

[Terwyn]

That sounds like it might have been another one of those communication problems that have cropped up from time to time - would you like me to send you the Skype log, or would you prefer to get it from Segev?

I have other things I need to talk to him about, but it would be helpful for you to send it to me, yes.

And I would argue that these "communication problems" are demonstrable proof that we have all made mistakes from the beginning.

[Moonfyire101]

I just wanted to say that i endorse both and all projects. I admire your efforts or stepping forth and having a vision. I have worked on games in the past and have the ability to work on multiple projects without giving away pertenant information to the other parties. I feel that i can offer somthing unique to both seperately depending on the direction they go. I think the more we put forth the better our chances and we are all CoXers so lets all just get along. TY those who started the projects and i hope to have the pleasure to work with both of you as soon as i greive and finish the things i need to get done involving the deaths of my loved ones.

[SithRose]

So, tell me, Plan Z people. Would my ideas have a place for growth, participation, feedback and development here? Or would you like to exclude Golden Girl's ideas, my ideas, and the other ideas from the table automatically? Because if the answer is "yes", then you have already lost something valuable to your cause and community. I'll leave it to you to ponder what that thing is. Tony knows the answer, I guarantee you.

Well, speaking as the Lore Lead for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project, I've actively been trying to get Golden Girl to contribute original ideas to the project since we've begun. We've not been able to use all of the ideas she's submitted to the Phoenix Project due to IP risk and she has been extremely reluctant to revise or change her work at all. You can see the original versions of her submitted work on the Heroes and Villains website. I've offered multiple suggestions in the threads for her submissions, as have several other people, and she's refused to respond to them.

So yes, absolutely, your ideas have room for growth, participation, development, and feedback in the Phoenix Project - with one caveat. You have to be willing to work cooperatively and professionally with us, as we will work cooperatively and professionally with you. :) It's the nature of a communal project that ideas will expand, change, and evolve as others contribute to them, and flatly rejecting those contributions or suggestions to change hamstrings your own ability to work with us. Yes, I've rejected some of Golden Girl's ideas, because they were a clear and present IP risk. And I've requested that she submit some of her other ideas and characters in the Lore forum rather than the Art forum, which she refused to do. It's extremely difficult to work with someone when they refuse to change and react extremely poorly to any suggestions that their work might have clarity, spelling, or IP concerns.

I have not excluded any idea simply because of the person who originated it, nor do I intend to do so. I will review professionally, based on quality of the submission and the Lore's current needs, and suggest revisions, changes, or compromises based on the needs of the game, as you can see from reviewing the Phoenix Project's Lore forum. :)

[TonyV]

Okay, just to clear up some misconceptions (and probably create a few more...):

1) I am not a game designer.  My idea of "balance" is not falling out of my chair while playing.  That's why even when I thought the City of Heroes developers were making a mistake, I never gave them much grief about it because I always implicitly knew that I couldn't do any better.  Fun fact: I hardly ever used Mids or various character build tools.  The limit of my ideas for design was, "Which power looks coolest?" while looking at the level-up screen.  And I'm okay with this limitation, because acknowledging it and moving on to something else gives me time to focus on things that are my strenghts.

2) I'm an okay programmer, but nothing near what will be required to create a game.  I'm especially weak when it comes to programming graphics and whatnot, with my expertise really being more in the shuffling data around arena.  I guess I'm not totally stupid to graphics, but I'd be hopelessly incapable of actually generating anything helpful in this area.

3) Golden girl did not "ragequit."  Anyone who claims that is not being truthful.  There had been a rift in vision for several weeks that, despite the best efforts of multiple people including Golden Girl, could not be reconciled.  I'm not going to sum up arguments for something or against another because it would be totally pointless.  My suggestion is to do a little reading up on both projects (keeping in mind that both are still in their infancy and subject to change), decide which one you think is more spot-on, and support that team.  If you really want to be helpful, though, don't do it by trying to tear down someone else or undermining others.  Focus on the positive.  Keep in mind that the enemy of each project is not the other project; it is not having any project at all.  And if you think that Golden Girl is somehow going to tear the community apart or cause the other team's project to derail, I think you have WAY too little faith in the community and the other project and you put WAY too much weight into Golden Girl's capabilities to do something like that (completely neglecting the obvious, which is that she's actually a really nice person who has been a passionate member of this community for a very long time).

4) The Titan Network is not a game development company or organization.  We simply do not have the talent or resources to lead a project of this scope.  Remember the Freem 15?  Those were full-time paid staff with lots of experience in the industry and a rapport developed over years working together for many hours day in and day out at the same physical location.  The Titan Network core team consists of seven or eight people spread all over the world, most of whom have full-time day jobs, none of whom have met each other in person (that I know of), all of whom are volunteers spending at most a few hours per day working on this stuff.

5) It's grossly unfair for us to pick and choose winners and losers like I feel some people here are asking us to do.  Not just to us, but to the people who want to help by working on these projects.  I mean think about it, if you wanted to develop a mobile app that had something to do with City of Heroes, would you rather have us say, "Hey, we're cool with anyone who wants to add something to the mix" and (barring some really bizarre reason why not) help to publicize it, or have me or us as a small group judge it and determine if it's worth the community's time, having the ultimate ability to make or break what you're hoping to accomplish?

If you think that this is going to destroy any chance a Plan Z project has of succeeding, then I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think you're mistaken.  At any rate, it's still very early in the process, so please, give these projects a chance before you just naysay the crap out of them.  I mean, unless you're a graphical code-head trying to decide which to work on, it's not like it will hurt much to just hang out for a while and see what happens.  One may pull out ahead of another, both may take off like wildfire, or both may sputter out, in which case hopefully someone else will come along and raise a banner.

But I'm not the boss of these projects.  It's not like I can tell either team, "Hey, stop doing that," or, "Do it that way."  For that, you need to talk to the leaders of the teams themselves.  Even if I could, though, I like and respect the leaders of both of these teams and I feel like they both deserve support in what they're doing.

[Captain Electric]

I just want to add that I see an interesting difference here, Tony. Whereas Project Phoenix (I think I'm going to stop using that "Plan Z" term) is very communal, it seems at first glance that Golden Girl wants to lead a much more rigidly and single-focused project. Some of the things you rejected, SithRose (should I just call you Rose?), it doesn't look like she's going to waver on. Maybe she's willing to walk that thin IP line to an extent that most of the Project Phoenix people wouldn't be comfortable with. Maybe she knows what she's doing, maybe she's taking a risk, I don't know. Maybe Golden Girl will get some artists, writers, and coders for whom her ideas resonate. Maybe my idea will too. Maybe those players GG mentioned with MUD ideas will make a show too.

The best case scenario is for this community to have as many successful projects as its members have in them. There could be a lot of potential waiting for this forum community to unlock--potential that could see its membership grow and evolve with time, rather than diminish as City of Heroes' closure grows more distant with time and memory. The future could see big things coming out of a collective think tank here. We should saunter into that future unafraid of the diversity it might bring. We don't have to like every project here, just like we don't have to like every super hero game out there. What matters is that those projects' stewards are able to garner their own support and fans, just like yours. The only alternative to an open mind is the monopolization of intellectual real estate here, stifling of broader horizons, and loss of community members over time that might have stuck around if there was more going on to keep their torches burning.

[Soundtrack]

Patrick Henry's words, "United we stand, divided we fall" come to mind...but perhaps they come erroneously.

I guess for me, I'm unsure who to support. If there was just one cause, one PLAN, if you will (and by "plan" I don't mean "umbrella concept", but actual PLAN), then I think it'd be easier to put my loyalty behind it.

However, Tony, when I read you say something like: " The way I see it, there is plenty of room for two games.  (Or even more, if another team wants to jump in and have at it!)"...while I don't disagree with you (it's a free country... people can work and initiate plans left and right as far as I care)... I do have concerns that if somebody doesn't like the Phoenix Project or Golden Girl's Heroes & Villains...they'll think, "I'm going to break off and create a 'Titans & Tyrants' game! I'll just keep it under the 'Plan Z Umbrella' and it will all be good."

Now, perhaps some of the key players of the original plan (which I guess is the Phoenix Project? Or am I not understanding that as well?), didn't see eye to eye on ideas and direction. I get that. But that's where we decide to COMPROMISE. "Okay... I think I can live with <your idea> if you feel you can give <my idea> a bit more thought. Let's sleep on it."

If I was NCSoft reading this, I may even be inclined to be quite happy. "Divide and conquer." "It's just a matter of time before these people continue to fracture... we'll just wait it out. And they'll be nothing more than a memory."

Again... Patrick Henry would most likely find this entire thing questionable at best. :)

Just my opinion... I do wish both projects (well, "both" at the time I type this...who knows how many more ideas may come up...) the very best of luck. And if they're both successful, that's awesome. I'm eager to observe.

I just have my suspicions...and to clarify...this is just my opinion. :) I have no education or experience in the building/programming world.

[Golden Girl]

I guess for me, I'm unsure who to support.

As far as the HaV team is concerned, there's no competition between it and any other community projects - they support the community as a whole.

[dwturducken]

To go back to the question of a demo by today, I believe that is a distortion of what was suggested. I was lurking and offering a little brainstorming here and there, mostly throwing stuff out on the porch to see if the cat licked it up. Once things started to gel around actual job assignments (ie: having real, useable skills), I refocused back here on the Save Paragon side, so take my vague recollection for what it's worth. What I recall was a hope to "have something to show" by today, with no real firm goal for what that would be until some technical decisions were made and any problems that might go with them addressed. When I left, there was some proof of concept modelling, different people playing with different software, and generally trying to narrow down those technical aspects. I never expected there to be anything to show, today. Anyone who did probably wasn't paying attention.

That said, if I had been "paying attention," this split wouldn't have caught me completely flat-footed.

As for the two, competing projects, I'll say what I said at the beginning of Plan Z, when people were saying it took away from the main work of Plan A, B, C, or whatever plan they felt was their baby: We're all working toward a common purpose, which is keeping the community together.  If Plan Z is going to become Iron Chef: Plan Z, that's fine, but much of the community can't afford two game subs. Just sayin'.

[Segev]

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project had a meeting tonight; you can expect something by tomorrow evening from myself or Terwyn summarizing how that project is expected to develop in the near future.

There has been repeated question as to what the "differences in direction" between the projects are. These differences are best understood by examining both and seeing for yourself. Speaking only for the Phoenix Project, its direction is a communal, cooperative approach towards a Silver-Age themed Super MMO, and I encourage those with questions to examine the forums of both projects. Feel free to ask questions of the team leaders in order to clear up any concerns. We are open to discussion with anyone, and the differences may best be understood by examining both and seeing for yourself.

I am sad that some feel they can't work with either project if there is not just one. The chances of re-unification are as good as were my odds of winning the $500 million Powerball jackpot on the one ticket I bought. All I can do is encourage those who would contribute if there was just one project to take a look at both and then pretend the one they like better is the only one. Because, if they like it better, they will want it to succeed more, and their efforts for it will be strongest.

I obviously hope people will contribute to The Phoenix Project, as that is the project to which my efforts are dedicated. I know we all want there to be a continuation of this community. Whatever we do, please do not attack each other nor badmouth each other, no matter what project anybody is working on. Recognize that we all want the same thing in the end, and that our best effect will come if we remain positive in all our thoughts, words, and deeds related to this community.

Thanks,
Segev Stormlord

[downix]

That said, if I had been "paying attention," this split wouldn't have caught me completely flat-footed.

I was paying attention and it still caught me flat footed.

[Golden Girl]

I am sad that some feel they can't work with either project if there is not just one.

I don't get that kind of mentallity either - this isn't some kind of sports thing where you can only support one team :P