New efforts!

[LateNights]

That's a weird question.  Generally speaking, the moral dilemma associated with any contract is whether there exists a higher moral purpose to violating a contractual term that overrides the moral obligation to enter into any agreement honestly and with integrity.  I'm not sure what the relevance of that to this discussion is.  I don't appear to be alone in my search for forensic consonance.

In the case you stated it would for all intents and purposes be theft - or at least whether the breaking of the terms amounted to theft, right?

Quite similar to what Nyx argued, in fact that was stated in the link.

Arguing a legal term instead of reading the word as I used it (correctly), doesn't help move the discussion forward, but thanks for bringing up legal terms with me once again, especially after you derided me last time for doing so when "it was clear" I had no knowledge of said terms.

What would you like me to do in such circumstances?

Would you mind if I forward any thought I might put on these forums to you for perusal prior to my posting?

[LateNights]

The key word in your statement is "potential."  This would be tricky ground even for someone well versed in the law, but for our purposes here first of all using the CoH game client with Paragon Chat isn't necessarily theft.  First of all, not all jurisdictions would allow for the enforcement of all of the EULA's terms.  In some, while you still cannot do things like copy and distribute the software, you can still use the software that you acquired when you purchased the game.  Here in the US where I am, that's not true but the only thing unambiguously true is that NCSoft would be within its legal rights to revoke its license to me to use the game client.  It is not clear that they have done so.  You cannot argue that shutting down the game servers ought to implicitly revoke that license to use on the basis that there is no longer any legal use case, because there is one.  City of Heroes allowed players to make offline demorecords of the game, and the game client is the only way to play them back.  As that was a legal use case, and that use case still exists, it is not automatically true that NCSoft wanted to revoke all use cases for the software automatically.  It is therefore not definitively true that using the game client with Paragon Chat violates the license agreement.  Even if it did, it wouldn't be theft it would be a violation of the terms of a contract.

Now if read the correctly, you're suggesting that NC cannot legally prevent some use of the game as that inhibits the legal use of a demo record?

Does that mean in some sense people haven't got what they paid for?

Does that mean a working offline mode was necessary to fulfill that obligation?

[Paragon Avenger]

It's time for the weakly update:

Yeah, NCSOFT is under a non-disclosure agreement with Taskforce Hail Mary and so we can't tell you nothing.  Talks are still on-going.  Have you ever seen "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"?  It's kind of like that.  That guy just won't shut the frack up.  Anyway, we still love you, keep using Paragon Chat.

[h2o2Cognac]

Keep it positive ego-maniacs and man-babies! Long live the feeling, viva la coh!!

[Taceus Jiwede]

What moral dilemma is associated with copyright infringement?

Umm, its stealing.  I am guessing you don't own you own IP's or copyright material.  I can tell you right now if someone steals a song from me I am gonna be pissed. And I will take legal action to the fullest most messed up level I can.  You try to steal my IP and I will make your life a living hell and rightfully so.  You can't just steal something because you feel entitled to it.  Justifying a wrong doesn't make it right.   I am not saying don't play, but don't pretend you aren't stealing someone else's ideas.

Also, Paragon Chat isn't some NCSoft hate club nor is it only for people who feel they didn't get their money's worth for CoH.

[LateNights]

Umm, its stealing.  I am guessing you don't own you own IP's or copyright material.  I can tell you right now if someone steals a song from me I am gonna be pissed. And I will take legal action to the fullest most messed up level I can.  You try to steal my IP and I will make your life a living hell and rightfully so.  You can't just steal something because you feel entitled to it.  Justifying a wrong doesn't make it right.   I am not saying don't play, but don't pretend you aren't stealing someone else's ideas.

Also, Paragon Chat isn't some NCSoft hate club nor is it only for people who feel they didn't get their money's worth for CoH.

It was a rhetorical question, but you gave the answer I wanted, and even more.

Btw, I've never called for anyone anywhere to hate NC - people can make their own minds up as to whether they support the company after what's happened, same as the players who played other NC games did.

My problem is preachng to other people that you got your monies worth from NC, but then turning around and basically stealing from them by using Paragon Chat, because you still want to play.

It's hypocritical.

Then again, you did just say you'd sue the ass outta someone if they stole your stuff, but you seemingly have no problem doing it to someone else...

[Arcana]

In the case you stated it would for all intents and purposes be theft - or at least whether the breaking of the terms amounted to theft, right?

Not legally or morally in my opinion.  If I were to copy the software and give it to someone else and the license forbid that, whether that's technically theft by legal definition you could make the case it is theft in the colloquial sense.  Even though I'm not directly "taking" their property, I am in effect giving their property to someone else without their permission.  But using something in a specific way barred by contract isn't theft in any sense of the word.  I might be violating their legal rights, but I'm neither depriving them of property or distributing it to anyone without permission.  I'm not taking anything, including the opportunity to control distribution.  That's not just a semantic distinction: since you brought up the question of morality, it cuts to the heart of what makes theft morally wrong.  When you copy a digital music file and give it to someone else, even if you haven't stolen tangible property you've eliminated a potential opportunity for the owner to make that distribution for themselves.  When you already possess something legally and the rights holder wants to control how that thing is used, that's an issue distinct from theft.

[Arcana]

Now if read the correctly, you're suggesting that NC cannot legally prevent some use of the game as that inhibits the legal use of a demo record?

No, what I said was that while it is within NCSoft's legal rights to revoke the right to use the game client (at least in the US), they haven't explicitly done so yet.  I have yet to see a statement from NCSoft anywhere that said "as of this date we revoke the right to use the City of Heroes game client software."  Since they haven't done so, you can't state that people who are using it are "stealing" the software or using it illegally.  The only possible argument in that direction would be to presuppose that NCSoft doesn't need to do that, a reasonable person should infer that when they shut the game servers down.  But as I state, merely shutting the servers down can't be construed to imply NCSoft was revoking the client license because there are other legitimate NCSoft-authorized uses for the game client that don't require the servers to be operational.

[LateNights]

No, what I said was that while it is within NCSoft's legal rights to revoke the right to use the game client (at least in the US), they haven't explicitly done so yet.  I have yet to see a statement from NCSoft anywhere that said "as of this date we revoke the right to use the City of Heroes game client software."  Since they haven't done so, you can't state that people who are using it are "stealing" the software or using it illegally.  The only possible argument in that direction would be to presuppose that NCSoft doesn't need to do that, a reasonable person should infer that when they shut the game servers down.  But as I state, merely shutting the servers down can't be construed to imply NCSoft was revoking the client license because there are other legitimate NCSoft-authorized uses for the game client that don't require the servers to be operational.

Sign your life away huh...

Still, there's hope - like I said Kickstarter is popular enough that game companies might feel pressured into delivering more of what the customer wants.

Plus, MMO's probably haven't existed long enough for this argument to be had in a meaningful way.

Although in all honesty though I was never unhappy with what Paragon did, but again, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Funny though, I'd have sworn you just (previous statement), agreed that you felt you owned a copy of the game, rather just rented time?

[Codewalker]

Funny though, I'd have sworn you just (previous statement), agreed that you felt you owned a copy of the game, rather just rented time?

It sounds like you're conflating the client, which includes the graphical assets and basic functionality (and at one time was sold in stores*) with the game, which as a whole also includes all of the mission content, AI, and persistent state that was hosted on NCSoft's servers who "rented" access to it.

* While (in the US anyway) software is generally considered to be licensed, this is an important point as several courts have ruled that software sold in boxes has a reasonable expectation of being able to be treated analogous to a sale, so there are limits to how much the customer's rights can be restricted by shrink-wrap EULAs. Other courts have ruled differently, so the legal landscape there is very much inconsistent.

[LateNights]

It sounds like you're conflating the client, which includes the graphical assets and basic functionality (and at one time was sold in stores*) with the game, which as a whole also includes all of the mission content, AI, and persistent state that was hosted on NCSoft's servers who "rented" access to it.

* While (in the US anyway) software is generally considered to be licensed, this is an important point as several courts have ruled that software sold in boxes has a reasonable expectation of being able to be treated analogous to a sale, so there are limits to how much the customer's rights can be restricted by shrink-wrap EULAs. Other courts have ruled differently, so the legal landscape there is very much inconsistent.

Sorta, just didn't have the right term, funnily enough...

But yeah, I was more just talking about feeling as though one did own something rather than "rented", whether that be the client, the game or anything else in between.

Honestly though the legal,discussion annoys me...

Laws change, in the words of the great Optimus Prime "until the day...till all are one".

;D

I'd love to know where there's been a similar case to MMO's, where a group of owners will simply let something die, but won't let anyone use it in "good faith"

(Or "may" not let them)

[Taceus Jiwede]

It was a rhetorical question, but you gave the answer I wanted, and even more.

Btw, I've never called for anyone anywhere to hate NC - people can make their own minds up as to whether they support the company after what's happened, same as the players who played other NC games did.

My problem is preachng to other people that you got your monies worth from NC, but then turning around and basically stealing from them by using Paragon Chat, because you still want to play.

It's hypocritical.

Then again, you did just say you'd sue the ass outta someone if they stole your stuff, but you seemingly have no problem doing it to someone else...

I have never used Paragon Chat and probably never will I didn't play CoH for the chat.  I also don't entirely consider it copyright infringement, and certainly don't consider everyone here who uses it a thief nor would I drag Codewalkers name in the dirt by accusing him of Copyright Infringement.

You are the one who saying its stealing to use Paragon Chat while also condoning it.

I'd love to know where there's been a similar case to MMO's, where a group of owners will simply let something die, but won't let anyone use it in "good faith"

I personally have played probably 20+ MMO's in my lifetime.  And that isn't even a fraction of all the ones that have existed.  And the only ones I know that turn a blind eye to private servers are UO, EQ, and SWG and that last one may not even be around anymore.  And there have been a total of 0 who complete shuttered a game but then offered an offline version of it.

[LateNights]

You are the one who saying its stealing to use Paragon Chat while also condoning it.

Sure.

But only to point out the conflict.

How did you not get that from the "several" times I said it's hypocritical to point the finger at other people while doing so?

Btw, I'm far from dragging Codewalkers name through the mud, as I don't believe he's doing this to profit.

But even then, there's a fine line being trod here that does resemble theft...

[Arcana]

I'd love to know where there's been a similar case to MMO's, where a group of owners will simply let something die, but won't let anyone use it in "good faith"

It happens all the time in the software world, particularly in the software services world.  A company will buy a competitor just to deliberately shut it down, with no options for continuing the technology, or they will shut down one service to attempt to move users to a newer service.  Apple and Google in particular, but not uniquely, have a habit of acquiring start ups and for their technology and then killing the company and its products after the fact.

If you want a recent example of this sort of thing: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/05/revolv-devices-bricked-google-nest-smart-home

[Taceus Jiwede]

Sure.

But only to point out the conflict.

How did you not get that from the "several" times I said it's hypocritical to point the finger at other people while doing so?

If Codewalker was charging money for Paragon Chat then it would be stealing but he isn't.  I would agree that its hypocritical if that were the case, But just because say someone feels they got an equal return for the money they invested into the game that doesn't mean they are a hypocrite for using Paragon Chat. 

If someone really stood by what NCSoft did and thought they made the right decision then they would be a hypocrite.  Even if I did choose to play Paragon Chat I wouldn't be a hypocrite.  I don't support what NCSoft did I just accept that it happened and is just something that happens in the MMO world.

Accusing someone of hypocrisy is a rather insulting thing to do because it tarnishes their character and I haven't seen anyone attack you with such an insult

I have 0 interest in playing Paragon Chat though I am just defending peoples right to play Paragon Chat as well as not feel totally wronged by NCSoft.

[LateNights]

If Codewalker was charging money for Paragon Chat then it would be stealing but he isn't.  I would agree that its hypocritical if that were the case, But just because say someone feels they got an equal return for the money they invested into the game that doesn't mean they are a hypocrite for using Paragon Chat. 

If someone really stood by what NCSoft did and thought they made the right decision then they would be a hypocrite.  Even if I did choose to play Paragon Chat I wouldn't be a hypocrite.  I don't support what NCSoft did I just accept that it happened and is just something that happens in the MMO world.

Accusing someone of hypocrisy is a rather insulting thing to do because it tarnishes their character and I haven't seen anyone attack you with such an insult

It is hypocritical because you & others said people got their monies worth and it was game over when NC made the decision to pull the game, and that "we" should deal with that and move on or not spend money on a service that can be taken away...

And then turned around and continued using the service after the very same decision I just mentioned.

How do you not see that as hypocrisy?

[Taceus Jiwede]

It is hypocritical because you & others said people got their monies worth and it was game over when NC made the decision to pull the game, and that "we" should deal with that and move on or not spend money on a service that can be taken away...

And then turned around and continued using the service after the very same decision I just mentioned.

How do you not see that as hypocrisy?

Because its a different service entirely.  I see where you are coming from.  I just don't think you have any right to be calling people here hypocrites because they have a different opinion then you.

[LateNights]

Because its a different service entirely.  I see where you are coming from.  I just don't think you have any right to be calling people here hypocrites because they have a different opinion then you.

And I don't like being spoken down to by people that think they're in right because they seem to simply not care that what they say and what they do are two different things.

Service or not, we're walking a grey area where people are using something after the service has been withdrawn by the owners - who even went as far as to kill the forums for the game...

[LateNights]

It happens all the time in the software world, particularly in the software services world.  A company will buy a competitor just to deliberately shut it down, with no options for continuing the technology, or they will shut down one service to attempt to move users to a newer service.  Apple and Google in particular, but not uniquely, have a habit of acquiring start ups and for their technology and then killing the company and its products after the fact.

If you want a recent example of this sort of thing: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/05/revolv-devices-bricked-google-nest-smart-home

Not to put too fine a point on it, as I see how it's similar, but I guess overlooked this because I saw the IP as more "art" than "tech", if that makes sense?

Very much the Robin Hood "steal from the rich give to the poor", romantic coming out in me lmao

Edit: Excuse for everything huh!

[Taceus Jiwede]

And I don't links being spoken down to by people that think they're in right because they seem to simply not care that what they say and what they do are two different things.

Look I am not going to get into a flame war with you.  I am not speaking down to you, I haven't called you a hypocrite.  I also don't use Paragon Chat.  I don't know how I could be more clear about that, I am not saying one thing and then doing the other.  You are accusing me of being a hypocrite for something I don't even do.  I had no intention of insulting you I am just merely defending people who share my opinion and DO choose to play Paragon Chat, because if I didn't then that would make me a hypocrite.  There is no reason to drag this out, you don't have to agree me.  And I have no trouble agreeing to disagree.  But seriously, stop accusing me of being a hypocrite for something I don't even do.