New efforts!

[Biz]

You only need 5 and they will be:

Dylon
Dylon
Dylon
Dylon
Dylon

Because they spit hot fire.

a sugar cookie? this is ridiculous! there is no way

[MM3squints]

a sugar cookie? this is ridiculous! there is no way

You're too close man. You too close

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Controller: Ill/Rad.  It really doesn't get any more versatile than this.
Controller: Fire/Dark. Stacking offensive firepower.
Controller: Plant/Kin. Yep, stacking more offensive and control firepower.
Dominator: Mind/Earth.  Mostly for the powerboosted perma-dom confuses.
Mastermind: Bots/FF.  Want the defense and some controllable pets.
Defender: Sonic/Sonic. Debuff and resistance buff.
Brute: Claws/SR. For the AoE and the almost impossible to debuff defense.
Tank: Bio/Dark.  Tempted to put a stone tanker in here, but I think a Bio tanker will be a more versatile platform.

Personally i'd be inclined to bring a Plant/Dark although my Earth/Storm was also a favorite. Perhaps not the ideal set combos, but i found both to be extremely fun to play. Plant/Dark synergizes nicely in terms of creepy atmospherics as well, so there's that.

[Arcana]

Personally i'd be inclined to bring a Plant/Dark although my Earth/Storm was also a favorite. Perhaps not the ideal set combos, but i found both to be extremely fun to play. Plant/Dark synergizes nicely in terms of creepy atmospherics as well, so there's that.

From a purely team-oriented perspective, there is only a trivial difference between having Fire/Dark and Plant/Kin, and having Fire/Kin and Plant/Dark.  That might have been the more "conventional" combos, and I might have subconsciously switched them to be a little different.

[Void Huntress]

I've actually done everything more than once with different teams, so I know its all doable in different ways.  Particularly under I23 build rules with inventions, purples, and incarnate powers.

This actually reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Presuming we're (as previously indicated was probably the case) stuck with getting I23 for the server+game client, would there be any reasonable possibility of backporting some elements of I24 to the I23 build, given the availability of things like the I24 powers database?

How much do you think would be feasible, if so?

[Codewalker]

Far too many unknowns to even guess. Not even considering if someone is able to manage a buyout which is very much a question, there's the matter of who would be running it, what kind of resources they're willing to commit to it, whether or not they'll avail themselves of help from people like Arcana, whether or not those people are willing to help (and what kind of compensation would be appropriate), what kind of state the server images are in, whether or not they're willing or even allowed to make changes, whether or not they're willing to develop client patching infrastructure, what kind of tools are available to do so, and so on.

That's just what I came up with in a quick 60 second brainstorm. I'm sure there's a ton more unknowns and potential obstacles.

The safe bet is on 'No'. Then you can be pleasantly surprised in the very unlikely circumstance that it turns out to be possible.

[Arcana]

That does bring up a point I don't think anyone's considered, and only just occurred to me now.  Even if it was possible to add I24 features to I23, there's the completely separate question of whether that would be allowed.  Hypothetically speaking, it is possible that whomever manages to negotiate a license for the software may be restricted as to what changes they are allowed to make.  But even beyond that, there is the completely separate independent fact that all I24 data and info would still be copyright owned by NCSoft, and if that data wasn't explicitly licensed to the operators it would technically be illegal for any of us to try to shove it into the I23 game servers.  Because we don't own the I24 powersets or the I24 missions.  That would come down to the specific legalese of how the licensing agreement worked.

In other words, even if NCSoft fully licenses the I23 server and client code to the new operators, and even if NCSoft locates and hands all the dev tools to them, and even if they tell the operators they are allowed to modify the game for their own purposes, none of that says we can use I24 beta data when we're doing it if we don't own a license to use it.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

From a purely team-oriented perspective, there is only a trivial difference between having Fire/Dark and Plant/Kin, and having Fire/Kin and Plant/Dark.  That might have been the more "conventional" combos, and I might have subconsciously switched them to be a little different.

i knew that Fire/Kin was perhaps the most conventional combo, but honestly had seen fairly few Plant/Darks. The susurrations of Carrion Creepers as they followed me around or erupted around enemies bogged down in a Tar Patch and the overall appearance of Plant's powers with a little recolouring were entertaining complements to Dark's smoky/misty theme. Despite the effectiveness of the classic Fire/Kin that combo never really hooked me and my highest was level twenty-something.

[JoshexProxy]

That does bring up a point I don't think anyone's considered, and only just occurred to me now.  Even if it was possible to add I24 features to I23, there's the completely separate question of whether that would be allowed.  Hypothetically speaking, it is possible that whomever manages to negotiate a license for the software may be restricted as to what changes they are allowed to make.  But even beyond that, there is the completely separate independent fact that all I24 data and info would still be copyright owned by NCSoft, and if that data wasn't explicitly licensed to the operators it would technically be illegal for any of us to try to shove it into the I23 game servers.  Because we don't own the I24 powersets or the I24 missions.  That would come down to the specific legalese of how the licensing agreement worked.

In other words, even if NCSoft fully licenses the I23 server and client code to the new operators, and even if NCSoft locates and hands all the dev tools to them, and even if they tell the operators they are allowed to modify the game for their own purposes, none of that says we can use I24 beta data when we're doing it if we don't own a license to use it.

hypothetically speaking NCSoft does not profit to only sell a license to /part/ of the game, it makes any part they don't sell a license for close to worthless. I mean what are they going to do with the I24 stuff not getting used? print the source out and make party-hats?

I've considered this point many times, the outcome is probably one of the things we are waiting on.

In order for the I23 deal to happen the TheM would need a temporary dev license to modify the server and client to include marketing and or store changes as well as debugging and other set-ups for a maintenance mode. NCSoft does not profit from not allowing them to include the finalized portions of I24, they are done and just sitting there. Now as for the unfinished portions of I24 that would be a question of if NCSoft trusts the THeM's ability to develop new content (which I am guessing is a tough point to argue) NCSoft will see new content as a possible liability, so for them to clear 'finishing I24' would have to mean that they feel they can entrust that kind of decision making to the THeM. IF the THeM have passed this trial, then there is a chance NCSoft /MIGHT/ consider granting them an extended dev license for City of X in good faith sort of like a probation period to see what they can do. The terms may require them to finish I24 and make a passable I25 with NCSoft execs being judge and jury on pass or epic fail.

this is just a guess as per usual. and though it may be a wild dream to get a finished I24 or even wilder I25 and a functional dev license, it has a slight possibility, like slight as in blindfolding yourself running into a casino with $1, feeling around for the first table-like surface yelling "HIT ME" and getting a win of any caliber.

[Void Huntress]

Far too many unknowns to even guess. Not even considering if someone is able to manage a buyout which is very much a question, there's the matter of who would be running it, what kind of resources they're willing to commit to it, whether or not they'll avail themselves of help from people like Arcana, whether or not those people are willing to help (and what kind of compensation would be appropriate), what kind of state the server images are in, whether or not they're willing or even allowed to make changes, whether or not they're willing to develop client patching infrastructure, what kind of tools are available to do so, and so on.

That's just what I came up with in a quick 60 second brainstorm. I'm sure there's a ton more unknowns and potential obstacles.

The safe bet is on 'No'. Then you can be pleasantly surprised in the very unlikely circumstance that it turns out to be possible.

That does bring up a point I don't think anyone's considered, and only just occurred to me now.  Even if it was possible to add I24 features to I23, there's the completely separate question of whether that would be allowed.  Hypothetically speaking, it is possible that whomever manages to negotiate a license for the software may be restricted as to what changes they are allowed to make.  But even beyond that, there is the completely separate independent fact that all I24 data and info would still be copyright owned by NCSoft, and if that data wasn't explicitly licensed to the operators it would technically be illegal for any of us to try to shove it into the I23 game servers.  Because we don't own the I24 powersets or the I24 missions.  That would come down to the specific legalese of how the licensing agreement worked.

In other words, even if NCSoft fully licenses the I23 server and client code to the new operators, and even if NCSoft locates and hands all the dev tools to them, and even if they tell the operators they are allowed to modify the game for their own purposes, none of that says we can use I24 beta data when we're doing it if we don't own a license to use it.

I know there's a lot of 'this is probably not an option', but my question was aimed at technical curiosity. Things like: How much of what we saw in, say, issue 24 powers was dependent on tech in the newer builds? How much of it would work fine in a previous version of the engine with little to no modification?

I mean, I asked this question in the middle of a conversation on "what team composition would we like to have", which is already presuming some what-ifs for the sake of passing time. I don't think it's inappropriate for me to stage another?

[Rejolt]

When I first heard of the disc image story I almost felt entitled to I24. Now... I'd take issue 0.

Or final say on yes or no.

[LaughingAlex]

I probably couldn't get into Pre-ED CoH.  The lack of diversity from what I hear was pretty bad.  I mean, lets think about it, we wouldn't have things like time manipulation, or staff fighting.  We wouldn't have quite the balance and it'd be "build this way or die" mode in a sense.  A lack of depth, so to speak, that CoH came to possess from years of evolution.  CoH didn't start out the power house I enjoyed, it became that.

Hell, I enjoyed villain AT's a lot for a reason, so flexible and so many ways to play them right off the bat, they were a natural evolution of the multiple playstyle approach CoH had.  And they forced the hero archtypes to adapt, which the devs were able to oblige to that.  We ended up with a game where it really was playstyle/preference.  It wasn't like some games where if you didn't play a specific build you'd be crushed for it, or just not invited anywhere.

I remember posting this before, how'd we loop back to this?

[Arcana]

hypothetically speaking NCSoft does not profit to only sell a license to /part/ of the game, it makes any part they don't sell a license for close to worthless. I mean what are they going to do with the I24 stuff not getting used? print the source out and make party-hats?

Hypothetically speaking any work product that any of the devs created could one day find itself in another game in another form.

I've considered this point many times, the outcome is probably one of the things we are waiting on.

I'm a bit skeptical.

In order for the I23 deal to happen the TheM would need a temporary dev license to modify the server and client to include marketing and or store changes as well as debugging and other set-ups for a maintenance mode. NCSoft does not profit from not allowing them to include the finalized portions of I24, they are done and just sitting there.

They aren't sitting anywhere.  The live servers had I23, the beta servers had I24 beta.  There's no unfinished I24 in I23.

Now as for the unfinished portions of I24 that would be a question of if NCSoft trusts the THeM's ability to develop new content (which I am guessing is a tough point to argue) NCSoft will see new content as a possible liability, so for them to clear 'finishing I24' would have to mean that they feel they can entrust that kind of decision making to the THeM. IF the THeM have passed this trial, then there is a chance NCSoft /MIGHT/ consider granting them an extended dev license for City of X in good faith sort of like a probation period to see what they can do. The terms may require them to finish I24 and make a passable I25 with NCSoft execs being judge and jury on pass or epic fail.

I24 was all but completed except for small tweaks (and possible stability fixes) on the beta servers.  If copies of the beta servers exist, I would presume the negotiations would be to consider allowing the use of I24.  If the negotiations are focused on I23, that makes it unlikely I24 even exists in a form available to NCSoft to give out.

[Arcana]

I know there's a lot of 'this is probably not an option', but my question was aimed at technical curiosity. Things like: How much of what we saw in, say, issue 24 powers was dependent on tech in the newer builds? How much of it would work fine in a previous version of the engine with little to no modification?

Off the top of my head, there were a few new tricks in I24 powers not generally in use in I23 but I'm not certain off the top of my head if the I23 engine supported them.  In particular Absorption, used in Bio Armor and Blaster secondary powers.  For some reason I want to say that Absorption was actually already in the engine in I23 already, but I can't remember why.  If it wasn't, several I24 powers wouldn't be possible in I23.

There are probably other small changes that could make recreating new I24 powers in the I23 engine problematic because the devs were always adding things here and there, but I would probably have to delve deeply in my notes from the period to find them.  If any of the powers devs are lurking around they might know off the top of their heads, and Codewalker might know from City of Data differential requirements to support I24 data.

[worldweary]

Off the top of my head, there were a few new tricks in I24 powers not generally in use in I23 but I'm not certain off the top of my head if the I23 engine supported them.  In particular Absorption, used in Bio Armor and Blaster secondary powers.  For some reason I want to say that Absorption was actually already in the engine in I23 already, but I can't remember why.  If it wasn't, several I24 powers wouldn't be possible in I23.

There are probably other small changes that could make recreating new I24 powers in the I23 engine problematic because the devs were always adding things here and there, but I would probably have to delve deeply in my notes from the period to find them.  If any of the powers devs are lurking around they might know off the top of their heads, and Codewalker might know from City of Data differential requirements to support I24 data.

Nature Affinity had absorption powers.Never played Bio so I don't know if it was the same.

[Arcana]

I probably couldn't get into Pre-ED CoH.  The lack of diversity from what I hear was pretty bad.

I guess you had to be there.  Yes, I believe I23 CoH was in every important way superior to Issue 0.  But at the time the playerbase itself was totally ignorant.  Completely, utterly ignorant.  There was a time when Fire/Kin wasn't a thing, and literally no one really knew what it could do.  We didn't all burst out of head start running those things around.  It was AR/Dev blasters and Ice tankers.  Ice tankers, man.  When everything is new, everything seems completely different.  I remember debating the relative merits of running an all toggle-SR build verses perma-elude in I2.  Perma-elude.

Sure, most Gravity controllers looked the same because all you had was power-10 SOs to play with, but then again if you've never even *seen* a Singularity before, that's not a big concern (and the game didn't even launch with Singularities in the first place: those were added to the set after launch, so people who only knew the game from reading the manual literally had no idea what those things were when they first encountered them).

Put yourself at Issue zero, and then take away Mids, take away paragonwiki, take away all the guides.  No Arcana to tell you how the powers work; no TopDoc starting measurement threads; no BuffyASummers even listing what the powers are.  No patch notes besides what the devs happen to post, that you might not see.  No powerset debate threads because no one has played enough of them to even compare them.  No idea what pets do.  No idea how mez works.  No idea what attacks the critters have.  No real numbers.  No tohit rolls.  All you have are people like Snipefu and Pulsewave saying essentially "I recommend total focus because it stuns bosses, yo" and something called the "Brawl Index" that people are trying to make that has like twelve powers in it.  How much diversity is in the game?  More than you could possibly navigate through, and more than everyone you know could describe to you.  Enough to make every replay through the game something you've never played before, never seen before, and never even heard of before.

Here's one of my earliest memories of the game.  I'm on my main, aka the only character I've rolled up to this point.  I'm a level 11ish energy/energy blaster.  I'm jogging through Atlas when I happen across a blinking box on the ground surrounded by what appears to be a soap bubble.  I can target it.  I creep towards it.  It doesn't shoot at me.  I take a shot at it.  I miss, but it still doesn't shoot back.  So I decide to open up with everything I have, which is not much.  I shoot at it for what seems like five minutes, run completely out of endurance, and its still sitting there, blinking.  I shoot it, I punch it, I'm basically completely drained and yet it just plain ignores me and continues to sit there, blinking.  Eventually I just give up and move on.

A couple weeks later I'm a level 17 energy/energy blaster, fighting a new enemy called the Sky Raiders.  Oh.  So that's what I wasted ten minutes of my life on.  Someone's level 23 Sky Raider ambush left a present, and I spend ten minutes stalking and five minutes shooting at a completely worthless shield generator.  I *know* there were players that saw that and thought "why?"  'Cause duh, that's why.

For all that I loved how the game improved itself over time, and for all that I think the newer players had it so much better than we did who started basically from launch, there is a part of me that thinks those players missed out on something.  They missed out on coming across a shield generator, and not knowing what it was, not literally but metaphorically (I'm sure I'm not the only one that happened to).  That game fundamentally didn't exist past about I5 or so, when we all got not just too smart for that, but too smart to let anyone else fall for that.  Unless you played the game completely solo, never read the forums, never teamed with anyone, never read any in-game chat at all, and never read any of the outside information sources, then maybe.  Even then, you had to know that what you didn't know, lots of other people probably did.  There was a time when no one really knew anything, and what you were seeing was relatively novel.  That's a unique experience.

[Arcana]

Nature Affinity had absorption powers.Never played Bio so I don't know if it was the same.

That's right.  They used Absorption with Wild Bastion first.  So okay, Absorption at least would have been fine.  I knew there was a reason why I thought that.  I can cancel that dementia screening exam now.

[Surelle]

When I first heard of the disc image story I almost felt entitled to I24. Now... I'd take issue 0.

Or final say on yes or no.

Well...yeah, I'm with you there.  It'd be great if the whole thing didn't just fade away without ever getting a solid answer (like it feels like is happening).  Even if that answer is, "We just couldn't show NCSoft the technical expertise they required," or "It took so many years that our backers left," or "At the end of the day, NCSoft just wasn't serious about selling/leasing the IP and they've been stalling us ad infinitum to avoid another negative press backlash," it'd be nice for the other shoe to finally drop.   :'(  No judgements on anyone or any negative feelings about TFHM, it'd just be nice to know.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

When I first heard of the disc image story I almost felt entitled to I24. Now... I'd take issue 0.

Or final say on yes or no.

i think i'd want Issue 4 at a minimum. i probably wouldn't keep playing for all that long if it was nothing but Issue 0. While capes aren't essential to my CoH experience i would really miss being able to change builds and costumes. Also, levels 41-50 aside, there were some significant additions and fixes in that interval.

[Angel Phoenix77]

That does bring up a point I don't think anyone's considered, and only just occurred to me now.  Even if it was possible to add I24 features to I23, there's the completely separate question of whether that would be allowed.  Hypothetically speaking, it is possible that whomever manages to negotiate a license for the software may be restricted as to what changes they are allowed to make.  But even beyond that, there is the completely separate independent fact that all I24 data and info would still be copyright owned by NCSoft, and if that data wasn't explicitly licensed to the operators it would technically be illegal for any of us to try to shove it into the I23 game servers.  Because we don't own the I24 powersets or the I24 missions.  That would come down to the specific legalese of how the licensing agreement worked.

In other words, even if NCSoft fully licenses the I23 server and client code to the new operators, and even if NCSoft locates and hands all the dev tools to them, and even if they tell the operators they are allowed to modify the game for their own purposes, none of that says we can use I24 beta data when we're doing it if we don't own a license to use it.

I thought about this myself, from what I can gather about this topic is that it would just be easier to get i23- legacy up and running then it is to try and put in i24 changes. I think it would be better if the team put out i23 - legacy, and while they have that up and running transfer the City of. code into the Unreal engine afterward, they could update the game with their own updates. The should be a place where they find the information on power costs and that sort of information.