New efforts!

[Arcana]

Then I will be absurd.I'm not going to find a game to replace CoH.The issue 23 image is what I want not the IP.Any successor game made will not work because the people making will think they can do better and ultimately the changes they make will be their game and not CoH.

You do realize that had the game not shutdown, you would ironically never get the chance to play the I23 image ever again.  The people making City of Heroes always thought they could do better, and were constantly changing the game in significant, sometimes radical ways.

If I'm being honest with myself, if someone actually did win the lottery and handed me a hundred million dollars to make an MMO, replicating CoH in all respects would be the last thing on my mind.  If I was going to spend three years of my life designing and implementing an MMO, it would be what I thought were the best design ideas not someone else's.  City of Heroes did a lot of things right in my opinion, but there's also a lot of things I think it did wrong.  Also, with the benefit of ten years of reflection and a decade of the state of the art in game design itself continuing to move forward, what's possible today isn't the same thing as what was possible in 2004 or retrofitable throughout City of Heroes' lifetime.  I'd want to take advantage of that.

[Shibboleth]

eh... they are all pretty bad.

You've played every other game out there?

[darkgob]

You've played every other game out there?

At this point I can only assume they're talking about the other superhero MMOs, or even all currently active MMOs, in which case I certainly wouldn't disagree.  I just don't understand why people are so dead set on limiting themselves where there are so many other games out there to play.  Fixation to this degree just isn't healthy, and you can see it in the despair repeated ad infinitum hundreds of times in this thread.

[Brigadine]

At this point I can only assume they're talking about the other superhero MMOs, or even all currently active MMOs, in which case I certainly wouldn't disagree.  I just don't understand why people are so dead set on limiting themselves where there are so many other games out there to play.  Fixation to this degree just isn't healthy, and you can see it in the despair repeated ad infinitum hundreds of times in this thread.

Any MMO and pretty much any genre from the last 4-5 years.  A VERY small number of exceptions... Skyrim etc..

[darkgob]

You do realize that had the game not shutdown, you would ironically never get the chance to play the I23 image ever again.  The people making City of Heroes always thought they could do better, and were constantly changing the game in significant, sometimes radical ways.

I assume they would theoretically be content with any direct evolution of City of Heroes I23 (or maybe not! maybe they would have quit the game in I24 or later anyway, it has been known to happen), it's just the spiritual successor projects they're not interested in.

But if the game does come back, we don't *really* know what we'll be getting.  At minimum, we'll get an I23 server image, so I think that's what a lot of people are reacting to.

If I'm being honest with myself, if someone actually did win the lottery and handed me a hundred million dollars to make an MMO, replicating CoH in all respects would be the last thing on my mind.  If I was going to spend three years of my life designing and implementing an MMO, it would be what I thought were the best design ideas not someone else's.  City of Heroes did a lot of things right in my opinion, but there's also a lot of things I think it did wrong.  Also, with the benefit of ten years of reflection and a decade of the state of the art in game design itself continuing to move forward, what's possible today isn't the same thing as what was possible in 2004 or retrofitable throughout City of Heroes' lifetime.  I'd want to take advantage of that.

Exactly.  I mean, I'd probably also want to have a static I23 (or better yet, I24) available around for the nostalgia factor, much as one sometimes wishes to revisit old games (but just the old favorites, eh? ;)).  But sequels happen for a reason, even when it comes to "live" games like MMOs.  Hell, if Paragon Studios had been in a better position with respect to NCSoft, we might have been getting the first glimpses of CoH 2 by now.  Would the die-hards in this thread have rejected that as well?  I definitely understand cautious skepticism, but a hard-headed "NO." >:( is really just not an appropriate response, especially this early on.  The only exception I'd grant, I guess, is if one were particularly married to the CoH IP with all of its characters and storylines, but if that's the case then I think you were entirely missing the point of a game where you make your own superheroes.

Any MMO and pretty much any genre from the last 4-5 years.  A VERY small number of exceptions... Skyrim etc..

ANY genre?  Really?  Every single game in every single genre for the past half a decade?  You sure you don't want to dial back that ridiculous hyperbole just a skosh?  And your sole exception is a frankly overhyped AAA game as opposed to any one of hundreds of amazing underrated games from indie devs?

[worldweary]

You do realize that had the game not shutdown, you would ironically never get the chance to play the I23 image ever again.  The people making City of Heroes always thought they could do better, and were constantly changing the game in significant, sometimes radical ways.

Well it's a good thing that even the Dev's could only change so much because of the engine limitations.
Whatever the changes they made the core game was still there.

[Twisted Toon]

ANY genre?  Really?  Every single game in every single genre for the past half a decade?  You sure you don't want to dial back that ridiculous hyperbole just a skosh?  And your sole exception is a frankly overhyped AAA game as opposed to any one of hundreds of amazing underrated games from indie devs?

I've been enjoying Galactic Civilizations 3 since it was launched. But then, I like 4x games. My favorite being Master of Magic.

[Hagoroth]

I've been enjoying Galactic Civilizations 3 since it was launched. But then, I like 4x games. My favorite being Master of Magic.

Masters of Magic was great! Loved that game as a kid.

One of my favorites right now is Age of Wonders 3

[Taceus Jiwede]

I mean theve needed one signature for years now... Throw in the towel.

I don't think it's as black and white as "one signature".  Also if you dislike every other game so much why would you want them to STOP trying to get the only game you like back.  That would just make it a definite "No" instead of a possible "No".  So you don't have to live with the suspense or ambiguity of getting the game back anymore.  Instead you have to live with knowing that the last and closest attempt so far was abandoned because of.....impatience?

Honestly I think some of this forum really needs to cut Nate some slack.  He doesn't have to be doing this, and if I were him quitting would have crossed my mind at several different point's.  But this isn't about one person its about a community of people.   He doesn't owe us anything, and we aren't entitled to anything.  What he is doing is a personal project on his own time.  The fact anyone say's anything other then "Thank's for trying, keep up the good fight" is baffling to me.  Same goes to Iron Wolf.

[LaughingAlex]

I've been playing fallout 4 a lot myself, and it's surprising how much it feels like a total war game at times.  Every settlement grabbed can be seen as a gain, but only if you actually develop them economically.  But if you do, the amount of wealth and resources from them multiply exponentially with each settlement.  Once you build like 4-5 Trader Emporiums in different settlements, you practically have 200-250 bottlecaps per day that can go toward even more emporiums in other settlements or more specialized emporiums.  This also holds true with scavenger workstations.  Having 4-5 settlements with 5-10 scavenger workstations in each of them will result in so much junk and raw materials that with the sole exception of lumber and a few rare materials, you'll never have a shortage and can make just about anything you want at nearly any time.

This becomes even more true with characters that have more than just 6 charisma.

So now i'm trying to figure out what to do with all that scrap and income in my various save games.  Of course, it has to be practical.  Actually I just thought of something, finally.

[MM3squints]

Honestly I think this some of this forum really needs to cut Nate some slack.  He doesn't have to be doing this, and if I were him quitting would have crossed my mind at several different point's.  But this isn't about one person its about a community of people.   He doesn't owe us anything, and we aren't entitled to anything.  What he is doing is a personal project on his own time.  The fact anyone say's anything other then "Thank's for trying, keep up the good fight" is baffling to me.  Same goes to Iron Wolf.

Always remember this. At the end of the day this is what it boils down to. Nate and his team are doing this on their own time and own expense. We the community have not given a penny to the cause and even we did offer, the team either ignored the help or turned it down. Nate and his team could be spending that time and resource on other personal projects, goals, etc. As far as I'm concerned, the CoX deal is background music to me, but the gratitude I have for Nate and his team is on my fore mind.

[Brigadine]

I've been enjoying Galactic Civilizations 3 since it was launched. But then, I like 4x games. My favorite being Master of Magic.

I have had that one since alpha. 40 hours in and it is repetitive as crap.

[Brigadine]

Always remember this. At the end of the day this is what it boils down to. Nate and his team are doing this on their own time and own expense. We the community have not given a penny to the cause and even we did offer, the team either ignored the help or turned it down. Nate and his team could be spending that time and resource on other personal projects, goals, etc. As far as I'm concerned, the CoX deal is background music to me, but the gratitude I have for Nate and his team is on my fore mind.

Actually it could have looked bad to NCsoft if they 'needed' our help.

[Arcana]

Well it's a good thing that even the Dev's could only change so much because of the engine limitations.
Whatever the changes they made the core game was still there.

The game of I23 is almost unrecognizable compared to the game at launch except for the art assets, and even they were updated for ultra mode.

The engine limited what they could do relative to the time and effort allowed, but in terms of things materially altered since launch we have:

- The purple patch (which didn't exist at launch)
- multiple builds
- Icon costume editing
- the arena
- supergroup bases
- global chat
- sidekicking system
- exemplar system
- mastermind pet controls
- Issue 7 critter accuracy scaling
- The Invention system
- The player markets
- dynamic zone events
- newspaper style mission queues
- day job system
- server transfer
- power appearance customization
- weapon customization
- dynamically switchable costume slots
- PvP diminishing return mechanics
- The mission architect
- mission phasing
- turnstile mission queues
- The veteran reward system
- ouroboros flashback
- The incarnate system
- The Paragon Market
- LUA scripting engine
- leveling auto-inspirations

You could argue that actually most of what players would call defining aspects of the game were not there at launch.  Global chat was not there at launch.  Icon costume editing was not there at launch.  The launch leveling curve made it almost impossible to level through just solo missions.  There was no easy way to replay content.  There was no sidekicking or exemplar system.  We didn't even have a button we could use to exit a mission, we had to always run to the door at launch; that feature was added after launch due to player feedback.  Pets couldn't follow us through elevators at launch.  The game most players loved was evolved, not launched.

[Azrael]

The game of I23 is almost unrecognizable compared to the game at launch except for the art assets, and even they were updated for ultra mode.

The engine limited what they could do relative to the time and effort allowed, but in terms of things materially altered since launch we have:

- The purple patch (which didn't exist at launch)
- multiple builds
- Icon costume editing
- the arena
- supergroup bases
- global chat
- sidekicking system
- exemplar system
- mastermind pet controls
- Issue 7 critter accuracy scaling
- The Invention system
- The player markets
- dynamic zone events
- newspaper style mission queues
- day job system
- server transfer
- power appearance customization
- weapon customization
- dynamically switchable costume slots
- PvP diminishing return mechanics
- The mission architect
- mission phasing
- turnstile mission queues
- The veteran reward system
- ouroboros flashback
- The incarnate system
- The Paragon Market
- LUA scripting engine
- leveling auto-inspirations

You could argue that actually most of what players would call defining aspects of the game were not there at launch.  Global chat was not there at launch.  Icon costume editing was not there at launch.  The launch leveling curve made it almost impossible to level through just solo missions.  There was no easy way to replay content.  There was no sidekicking or exemplar system.  We didn't even have a button we could use to exit a mission, we had to always run to the door at launch; that feature was added after launch due to player feedback.  Pets couldn't follow us through elevators at launch.  The game most players loved was evolved, not launched.

I wouldn't consider any of these 'core' aspects of the game.

'Nice' 'quality of life' enhancements.  But not essential or 'defining' in my view.  (Possibly exception of 'side kicking.'  An excellent system/idea.  But I could and often did did by without it and most of the rest of the list.  *Shrugs.)

I'd happily have the game back without all that.

Azrael.

[Shibboleth]

At this point I can only assume they're talking about the other superhero MMOs, or even all currently active MMOs, in which case I certainly wouldn't disagree.  I just don't understand why people are so dead set on limiting themselves where there are so many other games out there to play.  Fixation to this degree just isn't healthy, and you can see it in the despair repeated ad infinitum hundreds of times in this thread.

I wouldn't given it was a quote that indicted all games as being bad.

I really don't think it is being nit picky to hold people to their absolute statements when they gleefully defend them (edit: especially when they subsequently go on to defend the broader reading).

[blacksly]

it wasn't even the most absurd thing on that page.

Maybe he filters out Joshex? ;)

[Noyjitat]

This is the most absurd thing I've ever read, there's such a large variety of games available that you cannot possibly lump them all together as "bad".

I dunno... I feel most of the games that have come out since 2008 have been pretty terrible. And consoles are just plain awful too. How many games still allow you unlock content by simply playing them?

Remember going to walmart and buying super mario 64, final fantasy, metal gear, megaman, etc; you open the box and play the game, find all the secrets, beat all difficulties and play 2 player or 2 vs 2 with some friends? That shit is basically gone now. It's either you always have to be online or you gotta buy some stupid season pass or buy items and extra lives from a store. Every part of most games now is attached to some sort of extra paywall or a taxi like meter even if your subscribed. I hope this business model eventually implodes on itself and we go back to buying complete expansions and complete games again. Looking at some of the stuff Konami and Capcom have pulled with company favorites like megaman and metal gear, I look for them to be some of the first companies to implode.

[darkgob]

The game of I23 is almost unrecognizable compared to the game at launch except for the art assets, and even they were updated for ultra mode.

The engine limited what they could do relative to the time and effort allowed, but in terms of things materially altered since launch we have:

<snip>

You left out one of the big ones, Enhancement Diversification.  Given how much that affected the way people built their characters, pre-I6 and post-I6 really are different games (to say nothing of pre-ED and post-IOs).

I wouldn't consider any of these 'core' aspects of the game.

'Nice' 'quality of life' enhancements.  But not essential or 'defining' in my view.  (Possibly exception of 'side kicking.'  An excellent system/idea.  But I could and often did did by without it and most of the rest of the list.  *Shrugs.)

I'd happily have the game back without all that.

Many are core to I23, which is what we're all hoping to get back.  I won't lie, I wouldn't be thoroughly disappointed to get the launch game back (especially since I started playing in I5, so it would still be a novelty to me), but I definitely wouldn't get nearly as much enjoyment out of it.  CoH would not have survived without many of these changes, so in that sense they certainly are core features.

Maybe he filters out Joshex? ;)

I really try to avoid ignoring people on forums and in chat rooms if at all possible because it usually results in a discontinuous experience (i.e., missing parts of a conversation) that is more disruptive than the blockee is annoying.  In the case of forums though it's actually often the opposite situation, as the blockee often gets quoted by other people anyway.  A person generally needs to be either extremely obnoxious or actively harassing me in order to get blocked.

I dunno... I feel most of the games that have come out since 2008 have been pretty terrible. And consoles are just plain awful too. How many games still allow you unlock content by simply playing them?

Actually quite a lot of them.  Really very a lot.  DLC doesn't even make sense for some games.

What you describe has become more common of course, and in some situations game companies do take advantage of it.  But your example (which I'm not quoting for brevity's sake) of Mario 64 isn't analogous, because once you beat Super Mario 64 that was it.  In order to add, say, a 4-player game mode, the game had to be re-released with that functionality, which guess what -- requires you to buy it again!  Same effect as DLC.  Expansions for PC games work the exact same way and have been sold for ages.

You're right that companies "baking in" paid DLC for their game releases is a problem, but it's far, far from universal, and in many cases allows a game to extend its shelf life.  A good example in my own experience is Goat Simulator (wait, where are you going, hear me out).  The first two game updates (Goat City and Goat MMO Simulator) were free, but the latter two (GoatZ and PAYDAY) are paid DLC...and I'm guessing they had to charge for them in order to justify their development.  Remember, game development isn't free, so there are legitimate cases for it.  If your argument is "it should just be part of the full game", well then, enjoy your higher game costs, because most of that time that's exactly what you'd be getting.

</END POST>

[Brigadine]

I dunno... I feel most of the games that have come out since 2008 have been pretty terrible. And consoles are just plain awful too. How many games still allow you unlock content by simply playing them?

Remember going to walmart and buying super mario 64, final fantasy, metal gear, megaman, etc; you open the box and play the game, find all the secrets, beat all difficulties and play 2 player or 2 vs 2 with some friends? That pancake is basically gone now. It's either you always have to be online or you gotta buy some stupid season pass or buy items and extra lives from a store. Every part of most games now is attached to some sort of extra paywall or a taxi like meter even if your subscribed. I hope this business model eventually implodes on itself and we go back to buying complete expansions and complete games again. Looking at some of the stuff Konami and Capcom have pulled with company favorites like megaman and metal gear, I look for them to be some of the first companies to implode.

^^ this guy