New efforts!

[Aggelakis]

Keep in mind when PvPing it isn't two toons just standing stationary and just taking blows (which sounds like what your analysis is based on if they were to just keep taking the debuffs without kiting out of the way.) PvP is dynamic movement is a factor and no one in their right mind will allow someone to just wail on them when their rotation is down.

Keep in mind that the analysis Arcanaville made is based off the conditions set by the original commenter - toe to toe bashing in the face, who wins? No kiting, no running around, no waiting for debuffs/recharge, just punching. She (Arcana) keeps mentioning this, but you seem to keep glossing over it.

[MM3squints]

Keep in mind that the analysis Arcanaville made is based off the conditions set by the original commenter - toe to toe bashing in the face, who wins? No kiting, no running around, no waiting for debuffs/recharge, just punching. She (Arcana) keeps mentioning this, but you seem to keep glossing over it.

No not really. If you read the paragraph below that paragraph you quoted me on, I explained what I thought the OP meant by 1 v 1 and further gave out details of the outcomes if the OP meant a match or just being stationary. The OP post never said bashing to the face, nothing about kiting, etc that was a limitation, just 1 v 1, SO, no APP, 40 capped, both scrapper and tanker needs to share the powers, and Pool powers are permited.

[Inc42]

Things like mobility and kiting don't REALLY change anything do they? In theory one or both players could be running when the rotation is down, so if anything this will lead to a draw or just draw the entire thing out further. Yes, PVP in CoH had some skill involved, but that cannot change the entire premise here to assume that one side or the other has that skill. The original commenter's question did not specify this, but it was really heavily implied, and frankly gets no one anywhere in this conversation. It just opens up things like:

"What if the scrapper runs away at the right time?"
"What if the tanker runs away at the right time?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more?
"What if the tanker is slotted for -tohit more?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more but the tanker knows when to run away at the right time?"

The implication of the original question was identical powersets standing there trying to kill each other which class would win.

(The answer is of course Brute)  ;D

[Joshex]

Things like mobility and kiting don't REALLY change anything do they? In theory one or both players could be running when the rotation is down, so if anything this will lead to a draw or just draw the entire thing out further. Yes, PVP in CoH had some skill involved, but that cannot change the entire premise here to assume that one side or the other has that skill. The original commenter's question did not specify this, but it was really heavily implied, and frankly gets no one anywhere in this conversation. It just opens up things like:

"What if the scrapper runs away at the right time?"
"What if the tanker runs away at the right time?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more?
"What if the tanker is slotted for -tohit more?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more but the tanker knows when to run away at the right time?"

The implication of the original question was identical powersets standing there trying to kill each other which class would win.

(The answer is of course Brute)  ;D

builds and sets would determine the outcome, IF EVERYTHING IS THE SAME then you'd have to cast a dice. scrappers have more damage, tankers have more res and def. Scrappers have def, but if they are both slotted the same the tanker will have more..

it would come down to the random roll 1d100 for each strike. basically a battle of who can hit more. GAMBLING WITH YOUR LIFE. naturally scrappers have a speed advantage but tanks have a Res advantage. it all balances out, CoX's PVP was really well balanced.

typically two good slotted armor toons in PVP will duke it out for hours without a winner. usually they have to call a draw.

[MM3squints]

Things like mobility and kiting don't REALLY change anything do they? In theory one or both players could be running when the rotation is down, so if anything this will lead to a draw or just draw the entire thing out further. Yes, PVP in CoH had some skill involved, but that cannot change the entire premise here to assume that one side or the other has that skill. The original commenter's question did not specify this, but it was really heavily implied, and frankly gets no one anywhere in this conversation. It just opens up things like:

"What if the scrapper runs away at the right time?"
"What if the tanker runs away at the right time?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more?
"What if the tanker is slotted for -tohit more?"
"What if the scrapper is slotted for -tohit more but the tanker knows when to run away at the right time?"

The implication of the original question was identical powersets standing there trying to kill each other which class would win.

(The answer is of course Brute)  ;D

Mobility and kiting dose change the match even melee vs melee. You kite to create distance in order to get debuffs off, regen end, heal up, or in a case of the mace try to get the first strike again when engaging in order to be the first to get the stun, knockup. For example:

No Kiting:
The person who got the cc combo off will likely win (the only factor is if the tank engaged first, but the scrapper can catch up if they are very lucky with enough random crits)

With Kiting
A person will get the attack rotation off then back off before the opponent can recover from the cc duration. This is because (with the rules setup in this case) if the guy who imitated the attack will be vulnerable for themselves to be cc'ed. Why is that a bad thing because if I pointed out whoever started the fight will win? It is bad, because if the person who initiated the fight didn't withdraw before the opponent recovered, the opponent will cc them, then pull out, wait till BU is active again, then be the one to initiate the next go around. If the opponent is smart and will just attack while that person is cc'ed, that leaves dmg on the target while the target can't retaliate back. The variable that will determine who wins is whoever can keep getting first hits off till the other person is defeated.

Mobility is survival and if you can move, you won't die (or be less inclined to die than being stationary.) That is the reason no one use fly and uses SS and SJ in arena matches. You use fly you get hit with something that -fly, your stuck. You can combine that teleport to escape, but you cant sustain a fight in an arena match because you will get caught. In zones however, fly+TP is actually pretty funny. I had a Zone PvP zone toon (Electric/EM/Cold Blaster) with fly, TP, leadership and concealment. Fly around invis, you see a target, switch out to hover detoggle invis, while boost range is active pop BU+Aim you can get 2 Zapps off from 273 range for 681 dmg (no resistance calulated). If need be you can fly down to 113 range and hit the target with lightning bolt and TB (which is pretty funny) for over 1k dmg. As you drop to the ground cause of the end crash, pop a blue, click hibernate up, as soon as you get out of hibernate, use TP upwards, fly and invis, That idea was inspired by C&C Ion Cannon and it actually worked well.

[Azrael]

PvP is dynamic movement is a factor and no one in their right mind will allow someone to just wail on them when their rotation is down.

I noticed that.

I found PVP a waste of time.

Azrael.

[LaughingAlex]

A good way to look at city of heroes pvp was to look at unreal tournament 2k4.  Anytime there was any risk of actual harm the winning player would run away with a shield up.  In fact players wouldn't engage each other unless they both felt they had an advantage in the fight.  Course, 99% of the time the fight would end up stupidly biased towards whoever had a slight skill and luck advantage, as you'd end up seeing boring 30-1 stomps.

It wasn't entertaining to watch.  City of heroes pvp was just as boring to watch cause of that, it was always one person bunny hopping around.  Probably why they took that away in pvp 2.0.

[MM3squints]

This post sounded weird when the other user was deleted

[Biz]

I had a Zone PvP zone toon (Electric/EM/Cold Blaster) with fly, TP, leadership and concealment. Fly around invis, you see a target, switch out to hover detoggle invis, while boost range is active pop BU+Aim you can get 2 Zapps off from 273 range for 681 dmg (no resistance calulated). If need be you can fly down to 113 range and hit the target with lightning bolt and TB (which is pretty funny) for over 1k dmg. As you drop to the ground cause of the end crash, pop a blue, click hibernate up, as soon as you get out of hibernate, use TP upwards, fly and invis, That idea was inspired by C&C Ion Cannon and it actually worked well.

Are you sure Mr. Shocker didn't teach you that move? I mean, he did have TWO elec/elec blasters...

[MM3squints]

Are you sure Mr. Shocker didn't teach you that move? I mean, he did have TWO elec/elec blasters...

Maw Shocker would have said LoL ele/ele then say something about Comcast

[Burnt Toast]

Uh no...


I have NEVER seen any pvp 1v1 take hours LOL!


THEORETICALLY it could... but that is in theory with equal skill sets etc.. What the theory does not take into account is NUMEROUS things.
Lag Spikes
Reflex time
Vision
Distractions in the real world
etc etc etc


I PVPd from the start of pvp to sunset and not once did I see any one on one result in a draw or take hours.

builds and sets would determine the outcome, IF EVERYTHING IS THE SAME then you'd have to cast a dice. scrappers have more damage, tankers have more res and def. Scrappers have def, but if they are both slotted the same the tanker will have more..

it would come down to the random roll 1d100 for each strike. basically a battle of who can hit more. GAMBLING WITH YOUR LIFE. naturally scrappers have a speed advantage but tanks have a Res advantage. it all balances out, CoX's PVP was really well balanced.

typically two good slotted armor toons in PVP will duke it out for hours without a winner. usually they have to call a draw.

[Joshex]

Uh no...


I have NEVER seen any pvp 1v1 take hours LOL!


THEORETICALLY it could... but that is in theory with equal skill sets etc.. What the theory does not take into account is NUMEROUS things.
Lag Spikes
Reflex time
Vision
Distractions in the real world
etc etc etc


I PVPd from the start of pvp to sunset and not once did I see any one on one result in a draw or take hours.

hmm I think it was several years before close during Christmas on protector they held a melee only PVP event in pocket D.

at first there was 5? of us then a few scrappers with SO's were gone, then my invul Tank with Normal IO's was gone. Then I watched for about half an hour (as a camera) as the final 2 duked it out for supremacy, then I left cause no headway was made, and about an hour later or so after a quick ITF they announced the winner. Granted that was a multi-'life' elimination round but they basically said they'd never do that agian as an event, even with insps and temp powers banned it was... Loooooooong, kudos to the winner for sticking it out!

I originally at that time was a complainer, I didn't want to believe I had to use Sets to be a top level tank, I wanted to believe regular IO's would do it (cause they work ok for PVE). I feel terrible about that event after I criticized the winner, saying he must have cheated. Gosh it seems so childish now, guy is actually one of my friends from the game just didn't know that was his character at the time.

afterwards I did Apologize to him and based my tank build on his. Good old times, was my first finished mids build.

Now I wanna run bank missions (inside comment, my friend will get it if he's patrolling this forum).

patience.... the game will return, I know it. persistence pays off.

meh I'm rambling now.

[Arcana]

Things like mobility and kiting don't REALLY change anything do they?

They change everything.  Asking which powerset combination would win if both powersets basically put their offense up against the other's defensive set is a math question.  Asking which powerset combination would win in an actual PvP fight is usually an opinion poll.

[Arcana]

I PVPd from the start of pvp to sunset and not once did I see any one on one result in a draw or take hours.

In I3 beta I battled Wandering Sword to a draw with my MA/SR.  Not even with all those HOs could he realistically kill me with broadsword especially with SR's unsuppressed movement, and while I could get lucky and chip him down even with MA (because I could detoggle IH), all he needed to do was MoG and reset the fight.  There was no way any fully slotted BS/Regen could take a reasonably built MA/SR with perma-elude and aid self in I3 or vice versa with any tactical options available at the time.  We only ended the match by progressively agreeing to stop using certain powers and tactics, particularly removing Elude and MoG, and eliminating kiting (eventually, I lost - maybe forty-five minutes after the start of the fight and about five minutes after trying to fight with no kiting and no aid self).

[LaughingAlex]

In I3 beta I battled Wandering Sword to a draw with my MA/SR.  Not even with all those HOs could he realistically kill me with broadsword especially with SR's unsuppressed movement, and while I could get lucky and chip him down even with MA (because I could detoggle IH), all he needed to do was MoG and reset the fight.  There was no way any fully slotted BS/Regen could take a reasonably built MA/SR with perma-elude and aid self in I3 or vice versa with any tactical options available at the time.  We only ended the match by progressively agreeing to stop using certain powers and tactics, particularly removing Elude and MoG, and eliminating kiting (eventually, I lost - maybe forty-five minutes after the start of the fight and about five minutes after trying to fight with no kiting and no aid self).

One should never agree to eliminating certain tactics that give someone else a biased edge.

Just a thought.

I'd have just agreed to a draw and said no to no self-heals if I had them.  Especially during the fight.  Only rules established at the beginning of a fight and only if they are reasonable should one agree to any artificial rule.

So I'd say you won, since he had to beat you by using the "ban something I cannot beat" tactic.

[Arcana]

One should never agree to eliminating certain tactics that give someone else a biased edge.

Just a thought.

I'd have just agreed to a draw and said no to no self-heals if I had them.  Especially during the fight.  Only rules established at the beginning of a fight and only if they are reasonable should one agree to any artificial rule.

So I'd say you won, since he had to beat you by using the "ban something I cannot beat" tactic.

We agreed it was a draw, then decided to explore what would happen in other circumstances.  Remember that back then, it wasn't yet known how accuracy even worked, much less how PvP would function.  Thought experiments about PvP in I3 were less informed than thought experiments about whether orcs would prefer Taco Bell over KFC.  If you didn't actually fight the fight, absolutely no one had a competent opinion on how the fight would actually turn out.  It wasn't until after Issue 3 was released that we even had a proper handle on how accuracy worked - because the big breakthrough happened during the "2004" Winter event which actually was delayed until mid-January 2005.  We have Stargazer and Pennelope to thank for that, because they had the presence of mind to test accuracy under the only controlled conditions possible at the time: by throwing snowballs at each other**.  They were the ones that discovered accuracy slotting was multiplicative, something that wouldn't be publicly known until I4, and not generally known until I rediscovered their work in I5.



** I should amplify.  Technically speaking, the arena offered a way to perform careful testing in theory, but in practice it did not for several reasons.  Most importantly, players *did* test accuracy in the arena - and all came to different, wrong conclusions.  Careful dedicated testing is not something every player can do.  Because of that, there were people who believed PvP combat mechanics worked in a more complex way than it actually did, and arena testing wasn't very well trusted.  Stargazer's accuracy testing *was* done carefully and accurately, and in an environment not loaded with preconceptions, which is why I trusted it.  And after I verified it, everyone else relatively quickly accepted or confirmed the theory.

[Minotaur]

In I3 beta I battled Wandering Sword to a draw with my MA/SR.  Not even with all those HOs could he realistically kill me with broadsword especially with SR's unsuppressed movement, and while I could get lucky and chip him down even with MA (because I could detoggle IH), all he needed to do was MoG and reset the fight.  There was no way any fully slotted BS/Regen could take a reasonably built MA/SR with perma-elude and aid self in I3 or vice versa with any tactical options available at the time.  We only ended the match by progressively agreeing to stop using certain powers and tactics, particularly removing Elude and MoG, and eliminating kiting (eventually, I lost - maybe forty-five minutes after the start of the fight and about five minutes after trying to fight with no kiting and no aid self).

I was often in PvP zones badging on my granite, and fairly frequently stalkers would have a pop at him, after a few minutes we'd agree neither could seriously hurt the other and get on with other things.

[Baaleos]

I miss Wormhole:
Wormhole was potentially a little OP for PVP.
Combine the tall buildings in Sirens Call, the disorient, fall damage etc
A lucky wormholer could simply Wormhole a victim into the sky, wait till they hit the ground, 5% health remaining? Zap - kill.

Not saying its a particularly nice way to win- but it was effective

[MM3squints]

I miss Wormhole:
Wormhole was potentially a little OP for PVP.
Combine the tall buildings in Sirens Call, the disorient, fall damage etc
A lucky wormholer could simply Wormhole a victim into the sky, wait till they hit the ground, 5% health remaining? Zap - kill.

Not saying its a particularly nice way to win- but it was effective

That reminds me, people may say it was cheap, but the TP foe+stacks of trip mines blasters was always funny. Kind of made having a kin a must in PvP zones when one of those popped up in the zone. Even if that was nullfied with ID, it was funny chasing down people with web nades and dpsing them down.

[Twisted Toon]

I thought 2 stalkers ASing a controller after the controller was hip deep in a fight with Arachnoids was rather cheap as well. But, they (the Stalkers) seemed to enjoy it.  :roll: